Restoring A Torah-Positive Perspective

[Guest yod]

Because the Bible does deal with two methods by which to achieve righteousness with God: law and grace --- but can any one be justified (made righteous) by keeping the law? No, but that does not change the fact that the Bible deals with two methods to achieve righteousness, and there is reason for it. It's to show us our need of a Savior. While that is not the only purpose of the law, but it was the primary reason in which the law was given. It was to show us our need of a Savior.

No one here would argue against that. In fact, you seem to of the same mind as everyone here except for a few terms which you have confused.

We don't hold to the hellenistic interpretation of "torah" which is;

LAW - "a set of rules, regulations, ordinances found in the Books of Moses"

Rather we interpret is as "instruction"

There is a large difference between following instructions and merely keeping a set of rules.

You don't seem to allow that one can follow "instruction" and yet live by faith in grace.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh wrote:

If I am right, then why did you argue that there are two possible means of attaining righteousness, either by observing law or by grace?

My Response:

Because the Bible does deal with two methods by which to achieve righteousness with God: law and grace --- but can any one be justified (made righteous) by keeping the law? No, but that does not change the fact that the Bible deals with two methods to achieve righteousness, and there is reason for it. It's to show us our need of a Savior. While that is not the only purpose of the law, but it was the primary reason in which the law was given. It was to show us our need of a Savior.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you entered into this under the misconception that we believe that we are gaining righteousness by works. I think you entered into this under the assumption that you already had us pegged and figured we were "mixing law and grace" in attempt to earn rightstanding with God. At least that is how your initial posts came across. I hope you are seeing that we are not legalists here, and are not attempting earn what can only be attained by the grace of God through Yeshua.

But in reference to your first sentence, what the Bible deals with those who pervert Torah observance into works based system of righteousness. Torah observance in and of its self, is not an attempt to earn God's favor but a response to the favor already received. It is legalism that attempts to earn God's favor through works.

Whenever you exhibit the fruit of the Spirit, you are keeping Torah. When you share Messiah with another person, you are keeping Torah, when you commune with God, and place Him first in your life, you are keeping Torah. Keeping Torah amounts to doing those things that please the Lord. We do not them to gain His favor but because we long to please Him. THAT comes from the Holy Spirit. Torah observance and being led by the Spirit are not mutually exclusive. Like I said, the New Testament is an extension of the Torah, and as such, the entire Word of God is Torah and serves as the Holy Spirit's textbook out of which He instructs us as to what is pleasing to the Lord.

[Jake for Jesus]

Let me share with you a little parable to make vivid what I have been talking about with you all in this discussion.

I am sharing this with you out of my own experience.

I know what it is to struggle to please God with my own efforts.

I have tired at times to be more "religious."

But I have felt frustrated.

I have not known what to do?

But I have learned that this is just part of the process that makes our walk with Jesus come alive.

This parable concerns a map and a guide:

Suppose you are in a certain place and you need to find the way to a distant destination over country that you have never traveled.

God gives you two options. You can have a map, or you can have a personal guide.

You are strong. You are clever. You are self-reliant.

God says to you, "What do you want, the map or the guide?"

You respond, "I'm good at reading maps. I'll take the map."

Knowing the right direction to take, you set off down the road.

The sun is shinning, the birds are singing and you feel happy.

You say to yourself, "This is easy? This is a piece of cake?"

About three days later, you are in the middle of a jungle.

It is midnight.

It is raining. Hard!

Furthermore, you are on the edge of a precipice.

You do not know whether you are facing north, south, east, or west.

But a gentle voice says, "Can I help you?"

And you reply, "Oh, I need you! I need you!"

The Guide says, "Give me your hand and I'll get you out of this."

A little later, you and your Guide are out on the road again and walking along side by side.

Then it occurs to you, "I was pretty silly to get so panicky just about being in that jungle. I could have made it on my own."

So you turn around to explain to your Guide, and your Guide is not there any longer!

You shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, I can make it on my own," and you set off again.

About two days later, you are in the middle of a bog and you sink a little deeper with every step you take. You do not know what to do!

You think to yourself. "I can't ask for help again. Last time I got it and I didn't do the right thing."

At this moment, you discover to your astonishment that the Guide is right beside you once more. He says, "Let me help you," and you start off togather again.

At this point you remember the map in your pocket.

So you take it out and offer it to the Guide saying, "Maybe you'd like that."

But the Guide says, "Thanks, I know the way, I don't need the map."

Then he says, "As a matter of fact, I made the map."

The map, of course, is the law.

It is perfect.

Every detail is exactly right.

Every single item in the geography is correctly marked.

It is up to you to decide, "I won't take the map. I'll trust my Guide."

Who is the personal Guide? The Holy Spirit, of course!

How often does this kind of thing need to happen?

How many times will we go back to trusting our own wisdom and our own cleverness and in this way snub the Holy Spirit?

Edited September 16, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

But has you can see from our repsonses your parable does not apply to us. We are not "snubbing" the Holy Spirit. We have taken great pains to explain that to you. We see where you are coming from, but we also are pointing out that you were mistaken if you felt that we are trying to earn our way into heaven by "mixing law and grace."

It seems that you don't want to accept the fact that we are not trying to please God in our own strength. Perhaps your parable would be more applicable on an Orthodox Jewish message board.

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote:

But has you can see from our repsonses your parable does not apply to us. We are not "snubbing" the Holy Spirit.

My Response:

I believe my parable would apply to much, if not near all the comtemporary Church today, and no less amoung those who are practitioners of Messianic Judaism. The parable was not intended to about unbelievers, but about Christian believers, and not just about practitioners of Messianic Judaism.

Maybe you have not noticed it. But for my part, I have long since been aware of this problem in most churches. And even in churches that have all the right doctrine, I have seen people who are legalistic. Who are seeking to keep a good standing with God partly by law, and partly by grace, for reasons that they do not understand either grace or law. And this is why I now talk about it.

And should any one think that I am only talking about practitioners of Messianic Judaism being legalistic. I am not. The problem of legalism has existed in churches and has even since the time of the early Church.

By the way, we are quick to point out the fact that Satan attempted to destroy the Church by paganizing it. And that's true. However, that wasn't Satan's first attempt to destroy the Church. Satan's first attempt to destroy the Church wasn't by paganizing it that came later. Satan's first attempt to destroy the Church was by Judaizing it. And in the Messianic Movement today, this can be seen happening all over again now. There is nothing new under the sun.

Edited September 16, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest yod]

oh Enlightened one!

Please tell us more....

[Guest shiloh357]

I believe my parable would apply to much, if not near all the comtemporary Church today, and no less amoung those who are practitioners of Messianic Judaism. The parable was not intended to about unbelievers, but about Christian believers, and not just about practitioners of Messianic Judaism.

No, your parable would not apply to most of the Church. In your parable, you claimed the map represented the "law." Thus those following the map would be law keepers as opposed to those who rely solely on the grace of God. That would not define the Church. If anything most of the Church repudiates the Torah, and from what I see, are not only not legalistic but is becoming more and more "Torahless" as the years go by. We see even in the church, the divorce rate is rising. Unmarried teen pregnancy in the church is on the rise, not on the decrease, homosexuals are making greater inroads in the last couple of years than anyone ever thought possible. And you think the Church is legalistic????

Maybe you have not noticed it. But for my part, I have long since been aware of this problem in most churches. And even in churches that have all the right doctrine.

There are a few pockets of legalistic extremists scattered throughout, but they are marginal at best, and do not come close to representing the whole. Besides, this discussion is not about what the Church is doing. You brought all of this up to confront us who belong to Messianic Judaism, about what you THOUGHT we were into.

And should any one think that I am only talking about practitioners of Messianic Judaism being legalistic

Which practitioners? You make a lot of broad generalizations. Do you consider all of Messianic Judaism to be practicing legalism?

Satan's first attempt to destroy the Church was by Judaizing it.

HA!!! The first Christians were Torah observant Jews. Paul circumcised Timothy, and performed sacrifices at the Temple. He was Sabbath observant, and kept the Festivals as well. We find in Acts 21 and elsewhere that there were tens of thousands of Jewish believers in Israel, and all of them were zealous for the Torah.

And in the Messianic Movement today, this can be seen happening all over again now.

This is an inordinately broad generalization. We can find legalistic people everywhere, but they are the exception and not the rule.

I have seen people who are legalistic. Who are seeking to keep a good standing with God partly by law, and partly by grace, for reasons that they do not understand either grace or law. And this is why I now talk about it

yeah, we all have seen people who are legalistic... so what? They don't define the rest of us.

As you can see, for our part, we Messianics have a very good grasp on the proper relatinship of Torah and Grace ,on this board. You don't find Worthy Board Messianic Jews promoting legalism or trying to earn their salvation. Your complaint should really be directed more at people who are not as well grounded as we are.

[Guest yod]

It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience somewhere, JiJ

It also sounds like you are trying to make some kind of profound statement based on that experience. Yeah...we can find legalism in many form in the Body. So? Is that a new occurance or has it been going on forever?

We have probably all had to learn how to "lean on Him" apart from the law. It's natural (and therefore carnal) to think we please Him with our own righteousness whether it's from the Torah or something else we do "for" Him.

I like your zeal. You are still reading gray terms as black & white though.

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh ---- it's okay if you disgree with me. You have a right to your own opinion. However, does that mean that I am wrong just because you disagree?

If you think there was not a problem with legalism in the early Church. You need to take a closer look at the New Testament. For we are warned about the legalism through the epistles, and a good place to start would be the book of Galatians.

Yod --- what I hear you saying is that you know better than I do too. Well, maybe you do. I am beginning to now think that you and Shiloh may had been classmates at the "I am always right! " University. Actually, I attended there too. Only, I didn't graduate because I agrued too much with the teacher, and got kicked out! Well, they were wrong! How can help that? lol

Edited September 17, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh ---- it's okay if you disgree with me. You have a right to your own opinion. However, does that mean that I am wrong just because you disagree?

So far, all you have done is make assertions about what you think and what you see. You have provided very little in the way Scripture. You just keep making allegations and accusations but provide no substance. I am basing my answers on facts not opinions. You ARE wrong if you believe that we here at Worthy Boards are mixing "law and grace" as you put it. We are not. That is not my opinion that is fact, and that is one of the chief areas I stand at odds with you about.

By the way, if you think there was not a problem with legalism in the early Church. You need to take a closer look at the New Testament. For we are warned about the legalism through the epistles, and a good place to start would be the book of Galatians.

First of all, the situation in Galatians was pretty much limited to their group so far as we know. We do not hear of the same group of legalists going to other churches during that time period.

Furthermore, the issue in Galatians requires a bit more precision in order to understand what was happening. They had a particular sect of Judaizers who were trying to convince the Galatians that they should be circumcised. There is only ONE reason that a person would be ritually circumcised by a Mohel. He is converting to Judaism. The Galatians were being assaulted by those felt that they had to become physical Jews in addition to believing in the Messiah for salvation. These cultists believed that inclusion into the nation of Israel was essential.

It was Messianic Jews who put an end to this heresy once and for all. It was Torah observant Jews like Paul, Peter, James, etc. who decided, with the help of the Holy Spirit that the Gentiles did not need to physically join Israel to be saved. The mystery was how uncircumcised Gentiles could be a part of the Kingdom. Today, people are asking how Jews can believe in Jesus and remain as Jews. We have the same issue standing on its head in our day.

The heresy of the Church of Galatians was not that they were trying to earn their salvation by keeping the Torah. They were into a different kind of error altogether. It would be like telling Gentiles that they have to convert to Orthodox Judaism today. It would be absolute anathema.

One reason I am proud of our Messianic Forums is that we have been a bastion against legalism, here. We have had those who come in and try to spread their false legalistic teachings, and they are but a flash in the pan. We have had Yahwists jump on her and claim that we must use Yahweh, and other such stuff. You will, if you are around for a while notice that such people never take root here, because we quickly discredit them. We don't let legalism take root on this board, especially in the Messianic forums.