Restoring A Torah-Positive Perspective

[Jake for Jesus]

Yod wrote:

It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience somewhere.

My Response:

I don't know that I would say that I had a bad experience in the Messianic Movement. However, I did finally come to feel no longer comfortable to remain in the Messianic Movement after some years of being more generally assoicated with it. For reasons of the focus of the Messianic Movement to come to be more and more on Jewish observances and customs and not on Jesus and the perfect of the work of the atonement the cross of Christ.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote:

You have provided very little in the way of Scripture. . . . I am basing my answers on facts not opinions.

My Response:

That's what they will all say who are unable tolerate the veiws of others that are different from their own. They will all say stuff like that!

Edited September 17, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Jake for Jesus]

Yod wrote:

oh Enlightened one!

Please tell us more....

My Response:

Sorry, but I was late to see your post!

I think I will let Shiloh do it in seeing he thinks he is always right.

Because I may not always be right! (smiling)

[Guest shiloh357]

Yod wrote:

It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience somewhere.

My Response:

I don't know that I would say that I had a bad experience in the Messianic Movement. However, I did finally come to be feel no longer comfortable to remain in the Messianic Movement after some years of being more generally assoicated with it. For reasons of the focus of the Messianic Movement to come to be more and more on Jewish observances and customs and not on Jesus and the perfect of the work of the atonement the cross of Christ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, just another overly broad generalization, no specifics. I am involved in Messianic Judaism and have been for years, and mainstream Messianic Jews are nowhere near legalistic. There are pockets of legalism, but they usually on the fringe. Those fringe groups consider themselves "Messianic" unfortunately, which gives mainstream Messianic Judaism a bad name. Those groups don't define us, and I would like to point out BTW, that the "Understanding Hebrew Roots" forum on this board goes a long way in demonstrating that you are wrong about most of us. You can search this forum and you will see that we do not focus upon Jewish customs and services at the expense of Yeshua.

Shiloh wrote:

You have provided very little in the way of Scripture. . . . I am basing my answers on facts not opinions.

My Response:

That's what they will all say who are unable tolerate the veiws of others that are different from their own. They will all say stuff like that! lol

Actually if I were wrong, and your accusations had any truth, you could do better than respond to only one sentence of mine. Obviously, I am not off the mark, otherwise you would have something substantive to say, but you don't.

So far, the ONLY one who has ever demonstrated ANY intolerance for another person's point of view, is YOU. You were the one who got angry that ANYONE would dare challenge your allegations. You offer accusations but you don't offer any evidence. I guess we are just supposed to take your word for it. The burden of proof is on you, to support your allegations. If you can't support your claims with meaningful evidence, then there is no reason to believe you.

As I have said already this board, the Messianic Jews and Gentiles on this board are living testimony to just how false your remarks have been. This is one of many very balanced and mature Messianic forums.

But since you can't really support your position in any coherent fashion, I will simply offer the evidence that disputes your allegations.

Exhibit #1 Messianic Jewish Alliance of America From their Home page, "Why We Exist"

The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), founded in 1915, is the largest association of Messianic Jews in the world. Its purpose is threefold:

To testify to the large and growing number of Jewish people who believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the promised Jewish Messiah and Savior of the world;

To bring together Jews and non-Jews who have a shared vision for Jewish revival; and

Most importantly, to introduce our Jewish brothers and sisters to the Jewish Messiah Yeshua.

Why is this necessary? For many centuries Jews have frequently suffered at the hands of those calling themselves followers of Jesus. At the same time, the "Good News" or gospel of Yeshua was often presented without mention of this gospel's roots in God's relationship with His Jewish people throughout Scripture, and His promise of salvation through the Jewish Messiah. These factors lead many Jews to assume that to follow Yeshua is to leave the faith of their fathers and become non-Jews. The MJAA has worked to combat this misperception for nearly 90 years.

Most MJAA members attend independent Messianic Jewish congregations and synagogues. The MJAA is also affiliated with Messianic Jewish alliances in fifteen countries, including Israel.

Exhibit #2 Exerpt from the MJAA Statement of Faith

MESSIANIC JUDAISM

We recognize that Jewish people (physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, whether through the mother's or the father's blood-line) who place their faith in Israel's Messiah, Yeshua, continue to be Jewish according to the Scriptures (Rom. 2:28-29). Gentiles who place their faith in Yeshua, are "grafted into" the Jewish olive tree of faith (Rom. 11:17-25) becoming spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham (Gal. 3:28-29).

We observe and celebrate the Jewish Holy Days given by God to Israel, with their fulfillment in and through the Messiah Yeshua. We believe that true "Biblical Judaism," the faith of first century believers, which we seek to practice, acknowledges the continuity of faith in the one true God, revealed throughout the Scriptures, and ultimately manifested in God's Son, Yeshua the Messiah. We believe that salvation has always been "by faith," and that works of law, or righteous acts, have never saved anyone (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 2-6; Eph. 2:8-9; Heb. 11:6, 39).

We acknowledge that the New Covenant body of believers is composed of both Jews and Gentiles who have received Yeshua the Messiah as the Promised Redeemer. The "middle wall of partition" has been broken down and now we worship the God of Israel together (I Cor. 12:13; Eph. 2:13-14).

SOUTH WEST

February 17 - 19, 2006

The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America represents more Messianic Jews than any other single organization. It is also the most respected. They have a strong biblical foundation, and oppose legalism, 100% I, myself am affiliated with them, and am proud to be. They the single largest gathering of Messianic Jews from all over the world every summer!

Some of us are Jews, and there is nothing wrong with Jews or Gentiles expressing faith in Messiah with a Jewish flair. There is no sin in wanting to celebrate the Lord's Passover, Chanukah, Sukkot, Rosh Hashanna, etc. There is no sin in keeping Shabbat or staying kosher if one chooses to do those things. YOU may not like it, YOU may oppose it, but Jews have perfect freedom in Christ to live as Jews, just a Gentiles have perfect freedom in Christ to not observe those things. Despite what YOU think, we fellowship together around Yeshua, and no one feels pressured to observe or not observe anything. We are happy to just be ourselves and find our unity in Yeshua.

You are trying to sow division on this board where it is not possible for us to be divided. Frankly, if you have a problem with people who have fallen into legalism, then maybe you should go to THEIR boards and confront them there. Your allegations have no basis in truth on THIS board.

[nebula]

nebula wrote:

Let me try again -

It sounds to me like you are saying either:

A) "No longer living under the law" means we didn't have to obey it

or

B) Being under grace means we are completely incapable of sinning

Would you please clarify.

My Response:

Here is the difference I see between me and you and others posting here: "You people see Christianity as being a set of rules, and I do not. I see Christianity not as being a set of rules, but as being led by the Holy Spirit." Of course, it's okay by me if you want to see Christianity as being a set of rules, only I do not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What??!!

Jake - None of us said a thing about getting saved through rules.

I am feeling very angry at you right now. I asked you two simple questions and yet you refused to answer them. Is grace for you nothing more than a "get out of jail for free" card? This is the impression I keep getting from your posts.

Now will you answer the questions?

And if you still can't, can you at least answer this one?

How does one live who is under grace? (And by "how does one live" I am meaning how do you show and through your life - specifically - with examples.)

This post has been edited by Jake for Jesus: Yesterday, 11:45 AM [/size

]

BTW - I notice this under just about everyone of your posts. May I suggest you "edit" your posts before you post them? I don't mean this is a mean way, but it's a bit seeing this every time.

[nebula]

Shiloh wrote:

If I am right, then why did you argue that there are two possible means of attaining righteousness, either by observing law or by grace?

My Response:

Because the Bible does deal with two methods by which to achieve righteousness with God: law and grace --- but can any one be justified (made righteous) by keeping the law? No, but that does not change the fact that the Bible deals with two methods to achieve righteousness, and there is reason for it. It's to show us our need of a Savior. While that is not the only purpose of the law, but it was the primary reason in which the law was given. It was to show us our need of a Savior.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jake -

Do the Scriptures say that the saints of old, the people of the Old Testament, those deemed righteous, obtained their righteousness by observing the Law or by faith?

If by the Law, how do you explain Romans 11?

If by faith, then since when did righteousness become acheived by the law?

[Jake for Jesus]

You all are now seeking to defend Messianic Judaism.

I am not really meaning to give the impression the practitioners of Messianic Judaism are bad people. I don't believe they are. I was just sharing with you my experience in the Messianic Movement from having been being more generally assoicated with it for some years. For my part, I just got tired of all the custume parties and religious performances and the focus being on Jewish observances and customs after a while. They had their Messianic practices and that's all they were really interested in. And I wanted to focus on Jesus and to go beyond Messianic Judaism to a higher faith.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

You all are now seeking to defend Messianic Judaism.

Defending it against your inordinately broad characterizations.

I was just sharing with you my experience in the Messianic Movement from having been being more generally assoicated with it for some years.

Your experience, is YOUR experience. We are not that way. You need to find these Messianic believers and hash it out with THEM, not us. We are not legalists, we are not trying earn our salvation, we are not the people you were associated with.

I just got tired of all the custume parties and religious performances and the focus being on Jewish observances and customs after a while.

If you don't want to practice Messianic Judaism, that's fine. Why do you need to beat us over the head about it? Why should we care if you do or don't practice anything that is Messianic Jewish? You just came here to tear down other Messianic Jews.

I just got tired of all the custume parties

Costume parties??? What?? Were they dressing up as Moses? What are you talking about?

They had their Messianic practices and that's all they were really interested in.

And unfortunately all we have is you assigning values and motives to them that may or may not be true. They are not here to defend themselves, so it is easy for you to characterize them in any fashion you think helps make your flimsy case.

[nebula]

You all are now seeking to defend Messianic Judaism.

OK, I am getting the impression that Jake is not actually listening to a sngle word I am saying.

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote:

What do the Scriptures tell us the purpose of the Torah is? OK, here in no particular order is what the Bible tells us about the purpose of the Torah.

1. 1. The Torah demonstrates Lifestyle (Matt. 5:17-21) Yeshua in the sermon on the mount set about revealing the Torah to his hearers. He did exactly what the ancient Rabbis thought He would do. He began expounding the true meaning of the Torah. He did NOT set about to abrogate it.
   
   
2. The Torah leads us to Messiah (Rom. 10:4, Gal. 3:24) Messiah is the telos (goal, main focus) of the Torah. It is also the schoolmaster to point us to Messiah.
   
   
3. Torah sets boundaries by teaching what is right or wrong, pleasing or not pleasing to God. (Rom. 7:7) The Torah essentially defines, or brings a knowledge of, sin. It holds up the standard of righteousness. It does not make anyone righteous, but rather shows us what righteouness, love, holiness, etc. looks like. In doing so, it shows us the difference between what is sinful and what is right in the eyes of the Lord.
   
   
4. The Torah teaches about redemption and how Yeshua accomplishes our redemption. (Luke 24:44, John 5:39, 46)
   

The Bible uses synonyms for the commandments of God. It calls them precepts, statutes, testimonies, judgements and even defines obedience to God's commandments as the "fear of the Lord." Psalms 19, starting at v.7 tells us some important things about the Torah. The Torah:

• Restores the soul
  
• Rejoices the heart
  
• Enlightens the eyes
  
• Endures forever (see also Psalm 119:152, 160)
  
• Is true, and righteous
  
• Is more desirable than gold
  
• Sweeter than honey
  

The same chapter goes on to say that there is great reward in keeping God's commandments, and that they warn us against straying from the path that is pleasing to the Lord.

The Bible does not come close to portraying the Torah in the negative light that modern Christianity seems to intent on imposing upon it. It is important to point out that the Torah is the seed-bed for all of the theology that will follow in the Word of God. The Torah encapsulates all of Paul's letters, and the letters of the other Apostles, not to mention the very teachings of Jesus. The entire New Testament is writtem from Torah knowledge, and in Paul's day, His letters would have been tested against the only known set of Scriptures at that time, the Tenach (OT).

My Response:

Shiloh ---- the above was taken from an earlier post of yours in which was your response to the question in which I had asked: What is the purpose of the law? And the above was your response.

I had been meaning to response to this you said, however, had gotten off on something else and never got around to addressing this you said. I also would like to spend some time now discussing with you in more detail the purpose of the law. That is, as for the main purposes in which the law was given.

I can agree much with what you said, but not with all you said, as for the main purposes of the law. And based on what you said. I see that your understanding of the law is only partial.

Before I begin to discuss with you the purpose of the law, which I will began to do as I have more time to do so in my next post. I would like for you to carefully reveiw the above you said, and see if you still feel comfortable with it as for the purpose of the law. And if you still feel comfortable with it. I will play scribe! I will play lawyer with you in being I see that is what you are wanting to do.

Any way, please reveiw carefully this in all you said as for this over all statement you made to see if you still agree with it, and response to my post in some way to let me know you read my post, and thereafter I will be ready then to proceed with this in a way that will show you areas in which we agree, and that we do not agree, and to show you why I see that your undertanding of the law in only partial as for the main purposes of the law according to the Scripture.

Moreover, that you may know I could care less about any thing that rabbis says about any thing, unless it can be found according to the Scripture.

Any way, reveiw your post and let me know if you are still comfortable with all you said, and response to my post in some way. Then I will be ready to begin to discuss this more with you. And I would like to spend quite a lot a time discussing this as for what Scriptures reveals as for the main purposes of the law.

By the way, let's keep our posts short to no more than one page. For I do not like to read long posts. Nor, do I have time to respond to long posts.

If you should want to start a new thread on the purpose of the law, I have no problem with that. In fact, if you did it may could make for a more profit discussion if you should do so, and you can take your post above and put it there if you like. Either way, it's okay by me however way you want to do it.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Jake for Jesus