Faith and Works

[Jake for Jesus]

Kansasdad wrote:

How do we keep our position in christ?

My Response:

Thank you for your question.

In giving my answer to your question, firstly, I will say that I do not believe the Lord accepts partial commitments. And we must remain faithful to Jesus, that is required. We must remain totally committed to Jesus, even if no one else will. We must remain faithful.

Be blessed, brother.

Jacob

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, well said. I agree with your last post, except for only on one point you had made: you said that "We (who are in Christ) do not have righteousness imparted to us at this time."

Only I would encourage you should take another look at that. For I see that Scripture reveals that there is no waiting for it.

You said putting faith in Christ we have righteouness credited to us.

About that I would agree, but also are justified in here and now.

Justification is a legal term that many Christians do not really understand.

However, I am not saying that you do not.

I believe you do.

To be justified means that we have been aquitted, we are considered not guilty. that's what that means.

We are made righteous, we are justified: just-as-if we had never sinned.

Either righteousness is imputed or it is imparted. It cannot be both. The Greek word for Justification means, "declared as righteous." Righteousness, for now, is imputed, not imparted. We are not yet "made" righteous in the absolute sense. We are simply declared as being in rightstanding.

It is the same with our sin being imputed to Jesus on the cross. He was not made sinful in the absolute sense. Rather our sin was credited to Him just as it was on Sin offering of Yom Kippur. He was a substitutionary sacrifice, upon whom the sin of the world was imputed. Likewise, we are not recipients of the fulness of the New Covenant at this time. There are many things about the New Covenant we have not yet realized, New bodies, the eradication of sin, New Heavens, New Earth, etc.

For righteousness to be "Imparted" to us, would mean that it is infused with it at the moment of salvation, and the Bible does not teach it. If it is credited to us, then we are still waiting for it. Much the same way things are credited to your bank account. If a deposit is credited to your bank account, you do not yet have the money to spend, but it is promised to you. Righteousness is credited or imputed to us, by virtue of our faith in Christ, the same as it was to faithful Abraham.

For not only through the blood of Jesus are we considered righteous, we are made righteous. Of course, it with His righteousness, and never our own.

That is true, and we will one day realizing the "made" part. If I were made righteous right now, I would not sin. Absolute righteousness would mean the eradication of sin, which is still a future reality, not a present one.

For example, I would have been saved, yet I forgot to confess and repent of the lie I told yesterday, and was hit by a car today and died today before confessing and repenting of that particular sin.

Of course, you would be saved. Even if you died before confessing that particular sin. Confession of sin is not for salvation. Confession does not save anyone, only Jesus does. Confession of sin is for your conscience sake. It does not ensure or maintain one's salvation. Confession of sin to Christ, is necessary to keep us out from under condemnation. We need that. I have heard people say that you cannot go to heaven with unconfessed sin, and that is absolutely false. You cannot remember every sin you have ever committed even in a single day. God does not throw us away when we sin. Nothing we do takes Him by surprise. He knew every sin we would commit after getting saved, and He saved us anyway. Confession of sin keeps us in fellowship with God, it does not apply to rightstanding with Him.

[Guest shiloh357]

  How is this done, How do we keep our position in christ?

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We dont keep our position. He keeps us. It is not based on us keeping ourselves, but upon Him keeping us. We do not hold on to Jesus, He holds on to us. There are no rituals, good deeds, charity, etc. that can keep us. There is no amount of religion that can maintain our salvation. Christ alone keeps us.

[Aim_64bIT]

How is this done, How do we keep our position in christ?

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

1. What if I told you I was going to give you a free gift but that I was going to follow you around and watch you? If I came and took it away from you would that make me an Indian giver?

2. For those that belive he keeps salvation by merit, I would ask that person to look in front of the mirror saying, "I am the one that maintains your salvation". Try it.

We dont keep our position.  He keeps us.  It is not based on us keeping ourselves, but upon Him keeping us.  We do not hold on to Jesus, He holds on to us.  There are no rituals, good deeds, charity, etc. that can keep us.  There is no amount of religion that can maintain our salvation.  Christ alone keeps us.

Amen.

(1 John 5:18 KJV) We know that WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT; but HE THAT IS BEGOTTEN OF GOD KEEPETH HIMSELF, and that WICKED ONE TOUCHETH HIM NOT.

HE MADE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY

(Eph 2:16 KJV) And that he might RECONCILE both UNTO GOD in ONE BODY by the cross, having SLAIN THE ENMITY thereby.

(Rom 5:8 KJV) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:9 KJV) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom 5:10 KJV) For if, when we were enemies, WE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, much more, BEING RECONCILED, we shall be saved by his life. (Rom 5:11 KJV) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we HAVE NOW RECEIVED THE ATONEMENT.

BOUGHT US EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS

(Mat 3:15 KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh US to FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS. Then he suffered him.

(1 Cor 6:15 KJV) Know ye not that YOUR BODIES ARE THE MEMBERS OF CHRIST? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. (1 Cor 6:16 KJV) What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. (1 Cor 6:17 KJV) But HE THAT IS JOINED UNTO THE LORD IS ONE SPIRIT.

Edited September 29, 2005 by Aim_64bIT

[Fiosh]

Shiloh wrote to Fiosh:

To be "justified" is to be declared "righteous."

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote:

Either righteousness is imputed or it is imparted. It cannot be both.

My Response:

I think you need to take another look at it.

The word impart, metadidomi (met-ad-id-oh-mee); see Strong's #3330:

It means to give, share, impart, distibute, grant.

The word implies liberality or generousity.

It is used to exhort those with two outer tunic to give one someone who has none (Luke 3:11); to encourage people to give with cheerful outflow (Romans 12:80; and to urge workers to labor with industry in order to give to him who has a need (Ephesians 4:28).

Any way, in way we are using the word impute means to impart, and has the same exact meaning.

Shiloh wrote:

We are not yet "made" righteous in the absolute sense.

My Response:

I beg to differ with you.

Shiloh wrote:

It is the same with our sin being imputed to Jesus on the cross. He was not made sinful in the absolute sense.

My Response:

I beg to differ with you about that too.

Open with me, please to 1 Corinthians 15:45, here the apostle Paul says:

So it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being [or livng soul]." The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

----- emphasis added

Many Christians call Jesus, "the second Adam." But that is incorect. Verse 45 calls Him the last Adam. Does it make a difference? It does, as we will see in a minute. But first we will go on to verse 47:

The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

----- emphasis added

So Jesus is called the last Adam and then the second Man.

We must get these titles right and in the right order. If we do not get them right, or if we put them in the wrong order, it does not make sense.

On the cross Jesus was the last Adam. He was not the last in the sense of time; there have been millions and millions of descendants of Adam born since then. But He was the last in the sense the the evil inheritance of the whole Adamic race came on him in its entirety as He hung on the cross. The total evil inheritance of our sin-cursed race came on Him. And He was buried, it was all buried with Him. Our evil nature inherited from Adam was put away. Finished. Put out of sight.

Then, when Jesus arose from the dead, He rose as the second Man, a new kind of man, the beginning of the Emmanuel race, the God-man race. Everyone who is born again through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection becomes part of this new Emmanuel race.

Picture Jesus on the cross, the last Adam, the end of it all.

There was no other way for our human race to escape the evil consequences of what we had done. But when Jesus was buried, it was buried with Him. When He arose the third day, it was the beginning of a new race, the God-man race in which God and man are somehow myteriously combined in one creation.

Finally, I would like to further note that just because we have been made righteous with the righteousness of Christ does not mean that are not capable of sinning. In fact, in the next age to come in the Messianic age during the reign of Christ over the nations there will still be some who will still continue to sin as well as nations, and I can show you that in Scripture.

Being made righteous does not mean that we will not still be capable of sinning. Only in the age to come it may be something easier than now to not sin. Because the Devil will be put away during the thousand year reign of Christ, and at the end of which he was be released again for a short time. Ultimately, of course, he will end up put into the lake of fire along with the wicked angels.

Any way, I am not really wanting to go into all that here. Only, I mention this in part, to help you to see why I say being made righteousness does not mean you will not longer be capable of sinning not now in this age. Nor in the age to come during the reign of Christ either.

Respectfully,

Jacob

Edited September 29, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh wrote:

Either righteousness is imputed or it is imparted. It cannot be both.

My Response:

I think you need to take another look at it.

The word impart, metadidomi (met-ad-id-oh-mee); see Strong's #3330:

It means to give, share, impart, distibute, grant.

The word implies liberality or generousity.

It is used to exhort those with two outer tunic to give one someone who has none (Luke 3:11); to encourage people to give with cheerful outflow (Romans 12:80; and to urge workers to labor with inductry in order to give to him who has a need (Ephesians 4:28).

Any way, in way we are using the word impute means to impart, and has the same exact meaning.

I am sorry, Jake but impute and impart are two different words and have two different meanings. Paul specifically says that righteousness is imputed, that means that it is credited to our account. The word for justification is a legal word in Greek and it means to be declared legally just, or "innocent." It is not a word that refers to imparted righteousness, and you only bring confusion when you try to treat both words as the same. They are different words in Greek (imputation is logizesthai) Dikaioun is a word that is NEVER used in Greek literature for "making righteous" but is always used in a forensic sense, declaring one legally righteous or justified. It never refers to imparted righteousness. Imparted righteousness is not a present reality for the child of God.

Shiloh wrote:

We are not yet "made" righteous in the absolute sense.

My Response:

I beg to differ with you.

And you would differ with the Bible as well.

Shiloh wrote:

It is the same with our sin being imputed to Jesus on the cross. He was not made sinful in the absolute sense.

My Response:

I beg to differ with you about that too.

Open with me, please to 1 Corinthians 15:45, here the apostle Paul says:

So it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being [or livng soul]." The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.

----- emphasis added

Many Christians call Jesus, "the second Adam." But that is incorect. Verse 45 calls Him the last Adam. Does it make a difference? It does, as we will see in a minute. But first we will go on to verse 47:

The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

----- emphasis added

So Jesus is called the last Adam and then the second Man.

We must get these titles right and in the right order. If we do not get them right, or if we put them in the wrong order, it does not make sense.

On the cross Jesus was the last Adam. He was not the last in the sense of time; there have been millions and millions of descendants of Adam born since then. But He was the last in the sense the the evil inheritance of the whole Adamic race came on him in its entirety as He hung on the cross. The total evil inheritance of our sin-cursed race came on Him. And He was buried, it was all buried with Him. Our evil nature inherited from Adam was put away. Finished. Put out of sight.

Then, when Jesus arose from the dead, He rose as the second Man, a new kind of man, the beginning of the Emmanuel race, the God-man race. Everyone who is born again through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection becomes part of this new Emmanuel race.

Picture Jesus on the cross, the last Adam, the end of it all.

There was no other way for our human race to escape the evil consequences of what we had done. But when Jesus was buried, it was buried with Him. When He arose the third day, it was the beginning of a new race, the God-man race in which God and man are somehow myteriously combined in one creation.

Finally, I would like to further note that just because we have been made righteous with the righteousness of Christ does not mean that are not capable of sinning. In fact, in the next age to come in the Messianic age during the reign of Christ over the nations there will still be some who will still continue to sin as well as nations, and I can show you that in Scripture.

Being made righteous does not mean that we will not still be capable of sinning. Only in the age to come it may be something easier than now to not do. Because the Devil will be put away during the thousand year reign of Christ, and at the end of which he was be released again for a short time. Ultimately, of course, he will end up put into the lake of fire along with the wicked angels.

Any way, I am not really wanting to go into all that here. Only, I mention this in part, to help you to see why I say being made righteousness does not mean you will not longer be capable of sinning not now in this age. Nor in the age to come during the reign of Christ either.

The fact remains that Christ was not made sinful on the cross. If He was made sinful, then He would be unfit to be the sacrifice for sin. He was not dying as a sinner, but as the innocent for the guilty. The "first Adam, second Adam" thing does not address what I am talking about at all. I am saying that the Bible does not anywhere support the notion of imparted righteousness. It only supports imputed righteousness and as I have demonstrated those are two completely different concepts in Greek.

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote:

How is this done, How do we keep our position in christ?

We don't keep our position. He keeps us.

My Response:

I agree. In having said it was for as long as we keep our position in Christ was only just my way of expressing the same thought. Its only by the grace of God we can keep our position in Christ. No human being could do so by their own unaided efforts. In part, that is one of the reasons we have received the Holy Spirit. We can do all things God would have us to do by the One who strengthens us from within (see Philippians 4:16), as long as we chose to live a yielded life into the Lord.

Edited September 29, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Shiloh,

I do agree with some of what you say.

Jesus did indeed score 100%...and then some.  And, yes, AMEN!!!  I must depend upon His righteousness; He is the only on who can cleanse me of my sin.

But some of what you say, not only I, but all the OA-not-AS's will disagree with.

I can turn from Jesus and refuse His gift.  It is my choice.

If I turn my heart away from God, I lose my righteousness.

I don't believe that God is some "trickster" just waiting for me to make a mistake, so He can take away my salvation.  If I die before I have a chance to repent for a "new" sin, I do not believe that God will condemn me for bad timing.

He alone knows the heart and I trust Him to judge me accordingly.

It seems this is becoming more of a OSAS vs non-OSAS argument, rather than a faith and works debate.

Peace,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fiosh, no one said that you cannot turn away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings against apostasy, but that is not issue here. I am talking about the Lord keeping us inspite of our screw ups and foliables. He knows our sins before we commit them, and keeps us anyway. That is a different issue than apostasy.

[Fiosh]

Hi Shiloh,

I do agree with some of what you say.

Jesus did indeed score 100%...and then some.