Kabowd Posted October 6, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 6, 2005 I've noticed that one of the main sources of contention among believers is the differences over how "seperate" we should be versus how close we should be to the world. One camp says we should distinguish ourselves as much as possible from the world, having nothing to do with it and avoiding "every appearance of evil". The other camp says that in order to impact the world, we must infiltrate into it even at the risk of being accused of evil. So which is right? What is the true meaning of "avoiding the appearance of evil"? Appearance to who? Did Jesus follow this advice? Did Paul? I'm inclined to believe there is a balance to be found between the two. I believe that in order to reach the unbelievers, we have to be amongst them...and yet while we are amongst them, we must be noticeably different. I don't think we should be more concerned about what other believers might think than we are what unbelievers might think. Personally, I would risk my reputation among the "godly" if it meant that I would have an impact on those in the world. To me, it just seems like many believers today have lost their ability to be salt and light because they have so far removed themselves from the "world" that they've lost their relevance, lost their audience. And those who seem to have infiltrated into the world are labeled "liberal" or "sell-outs" or said to be "watering down the gospel". Is this really true or are we merely being guilty of criticizing something we are afraid of and don't fully understand? Why do the non-meat eaters criticize the meat eaters? (and vice versa) Why are we so quick to turn on one another and bicker over methods while the world around us watches in confusion? "Let us not be Pharisees in our certainty of what God could or could not permit." ~ Elisabeth Elliot Is it possible to even have this discussion without argument and controversy? I hope we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 6, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 6, 2005 I would like to, I think it is an excellent topic. I agree it is kind of depressing the way we go at it with other Christians over some things, which are not central to the faith. I would take a little different view than you posited above though. I think that we can be in the world and not be part of the world, I do think we should be separate in some meaningful ways. But I don't see Christians today as really being very separate from our culture, I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NITE OWL Posted October 6, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 535 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/02/1957 Share Posted October 6, 2005 (edited) My personal beliefs are that it is more important for a non-believer to see God in me than it is for a believer. Like Christ said, if we only hang with people who are of the same mind, what good is it? You can't water the garden if you're standing on the hose. Edited October 6, 2005 by NITE OWL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodischild Posted October 6, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/24/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1977 Share Posted October 6, 2005 For me a part of it is setting different standards for myself than for the people around me. I won't go watch most movies, but if my friends want to watch them then I so something different for awhile. I don't drink, but if a friend calls from a bar and needs a ride home then I go get him. I don't swear, but if those around me do then I can usually ignore it. Though I do ask them not to use the Lord's name. I try to let my friends see that while I won't do certain things, I'm not going to preach at them about it. Once they realize that I am different but don't expect them to change then they start to feel safe around me. Then I can share my faith in a gentle way. When something bad happens and I don't panic, but state that God will take care of me then they see my faith. When I give to the poor, or when I go to a friend in need and tell them that I do it because Jesus would, then they see my faith. Sooner or later they start to ask questions. Then I tell them honestly what I believe and what I think. I'll even tell them honestly when I think what they are doing is wrong. (though I don't use the word sin until someone is a Christian.) Once that mutual respect is built I can guide them to faith without being pushy or driving them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NITE OWL Posted October 7, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 535 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/24/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/02/1957 Share Posted October 7, 2005 What does your reply have to do with my post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Ernie Posted October 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,802 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 46 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/29/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/01/1945 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Greetings, I just thought I would add my 2c. First: Matthew 5:13-16 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. What I want you to see in these verses is that the reference to salt concerns our relationship with the Lord, while our relationship to man is revealed by the Light. Consider that the world is a large plate set before the Lord with all sorts of "food" upon it. Salt is used to enhance the taste of whatever it is used on. It brings out the flavor. You don't dump spoonfuls of salt on everything, but you lightly sprinkle your food, so that the crystals are scattered among all the food. So as with other parables, it is significant that first mention is made of our relationship with the Lord, and we find that we as Christians are everywhere scattered among all the nations. Another interesting thing about salt is its composition which is NaCl - Sodium Chloride. Chloride is very caustic and can kill, but Sodium is used to "temper" the action of the chloride. This is very much like our duel nature. One side that is death, the other side used to temper the dark side of the soul. So being "cast out" would be in reference to being cast out from the Kingdom of God and to be used and trampled on by men of this world. So now we are "light". The light does not naturally exist, it must have a source, which as Christians we know that it is the Holy Spirit or Christ in us. This AND NOT US is what the world is supposed to see. As has been said, to be "in the world" is one thing, but we are NOT to be "of it". The "light" has nothing in common with "darkness", that is there is no fellowship between the two. That word "fellowship" is "Koinonea", a unity between individuals which the world does not, nor can have. This is where we depart from the world. We can be in their presence releasing the "light" that is within us, but we do not do or think the things that the world does. The picture of both the world and Christians are clearly painted in the scriptures. A Christians SHOULD NOT marry a non-christian, because what has darkness to do with light? If a Christian does marry an unbeliever, I would question their Christianity, or at least their "maturity". In conclusion, yes, we are to be available to minister to the world, but as for having a close fellowship with them, doing the things they like to do is Anathema. Blessings, Dad Ernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 7, 2005 I think a case could be made that the thrust of scripture is that we are to be in the world but not of it. In other words scripture calls us to be separated from sin. It does not prohibit us from engaging the world in an incarnational way, in fact it commands it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted October 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 7, 2005 I would take a little different view than you posited above though. I think that we can be in the world and not be part of the world, I do think we should be separate in some meaningful ways. But I don't see Christians today as really being very separate from our culture, I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted October 7, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 7, 2005 For me a part of it is setting different standards for myself than for the people around me. I won't go watch most movies, but if my friends want to watch them then I so something different for awhile. I don't drink, but if a friend calls from a bar and needs a ride home then I go get him. I don't swear, but if those around me do then I can usually ignore it. Though I do ask them not to use the Lord's name. I try to let my friends see that while I won't do certain things, I'm not going to preach at them about it. Once they realize that I am different but don't expect them to change then they start to feel safe around me. Then I can share my faith in a gentle way. When something bad happens and I don't panic, but state that God will take care of me then they see my faith. When I give to the poor, or when I go to a friend in need and tell them that I do it because Jesus would, then they see my faith. Sooner or later they start to ask questions. Then I tell them honestly what I believe and what I think. I'll even tell them honestly when I think what they are doing is wrong. (though I don't use the word sin until someone is a Christian.) Once that mutual respect is built I can guide them to faith without being pushy or driving them away. Your way of sharing Christ is very similar to my own, thanks for sharing it. In conclusion, yes, we are to be available to minister to the world, but as for having a close fellowship with them, doing the things they like to do is Anathema. ..and I think a case could be made that the thrust of scripture is that we are to be in the world but not of it. In other words scripture calls us to be separated from sin. It does not prohibit us from engaging the world in an incarnational way, in fact it commands it So how are these last two quotes reconciled? I'm interested in hearing how this walks itself out in real life. What is "close fellowship" to one, may not be considered so to another. So what is the truest definition? I asked a few questions in my initial post I'd really like to receive input on, here's a re-cap: 1. What is the true meaning of "avoiding the appearance of evil"? Appearance to who? 2. Did Jesus follow this advice? Did Paul? 3. Why do the non-meat eaters criticize the meat eaters? (and vice versa) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted October 7, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted October 7, 2005 I am not saying we need to become Amish, although I do think we could take a look at some of their basic ideas against totally selling ourselves to American culture, which I think is essentially toxic and un-Christian. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ya know, sometimes I think the Amish just might have it all figured out. Other than the beard thing, I tried growing a beard once. Two weeks later my wife made me shave it off. How about when you see a family pray in a resturant. Sure sets them apart! God Bless, Kansas Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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