How can "the Church" be raptured BEFORE Jesus is risen?

[DeighAnn]

On 4/22/2023 at 7:53 AM, Montana Marv said:

Show me in Scripture where any other group of individuals are promised Crowns.  The only group is the Church or Body of Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

"Neither shall he go out of the sanctuary, nor profane the sanctuary of his God; for the crown of the anointing oil of his God is upon him: I am the LORD." Leviticus 21:12 KJV

"And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land." Zechariah 9:16 KJV

 

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." 2 Timothy 4:8 KJV

 

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12 KJV

 

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10 KJV

 

 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

On 4/22/2023 at 3:22 PM, Michael37 said:

Remind me of the Bible reference for this. 

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[DeighAnn]

On 4/22/2023 at 3:29 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Previous to this, in the first three chapters of Revelation, the church is mentioned 19 times. I ask, beginning in Revelation chapter 4, when is the next time the church is mentioned?

When the beast rises up the the world comes under one kingdom, and the image is set up, WHO would be going to church to worship God IN HEAVEN.  

The whole world is deceived by lying signs and wonders.  THEY THINK the anti Christ is the Christ.  They are worshipping the image.  

So MAYBE all those warnings to the churches that all end with the same thing, that being to HIM/THE INDIVIDUAL who overcomes, means the CHURCH for the 'last week' ISN'T OF GOD anymore, and the individual better be aware of that because it is only the ONE WHO IS AWARE, that can overcome and endure to the end.  

What will be HAPPENING has to fit with the words.  And that means that 'churches' would be worshipping the beast, who they THINK is God returned because churches aren't going to be going around claiming the beast is the beast, as there has been a falling away and the whole world deceived.  

How else could it be written?  How could the 'church' exist during Satans trib?  

 

[DeighAnn]

On 4/22/2023 at 3:29 PM, Dennis1209 said:

@DeighAnn

I have noticed over the months you are digging deeper into scripture, asking questions, and debating. That is a good thing; iron sharpens iron.

The single question of who are the 24 Elders or what they represent could take several pages to document. The brightest scholars, theologians, early church fathers, and secular historians like Josephus have varying views.

We are appointed to be kings and priests. The number 24 can also be expressed as 12+12. Messenger angels and the heavenly host are never said to sit on thrones or be awarded crowns. The New Jerusalem has twelve gates (tribes of Israel) and twelve foundations (the apostles).

One thing seems inevitable; it is a position of great dignity, perhaps an honorary title. We could discuss the Greek word Elder and how we derived the English words priest and presbyter. The 24 priestly classes of the Jews. The twelve precious stones on the priest's hoshen. How all these may or may not apply to the twenty-four Elders.

There is also a heavenly government. It may be these 24 Elders are a council, a divine council, and they suddenly appear out of nowhere directly when a door is opened in heaven.

I have never read any secular books written in linear, chronological order. The book of Revelation has parenthetical chapters and verses.

Previous to this, in the first three chapters of Revelation, the church is mentioned 19 times. I ask, beginning in Revelation chapter 4, when is the next time the church is mentioned?

Lumping numerous questions together with comments is confusing. Can we pick one question to discuss and progress from there? For me, dissecting one topic with a question at a time is not as confusing.

What would you like to dissect first?  I am willing to TRY but no guarantees

Edited April 25, 2023 by DeighAnn

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, SACREDWARRIOR said:

Hello,

  I cant recall where, In the new testament after Christs resurrection the is a verse that says MANY OLD SAINTS WHERE SEEN IN THE STREETS...

 They followed Christ out of Paradise.....

 THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS,

 Clarence

Matt 27
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[DeighAnn]

28 minutes ago, BibleWords said:

You are incorrect.

After the rapture many will come to Christ.  These are tribulation saints seen under the alter in Rev.

These are saved after the church is raptured in Rev. 4.

These “saints” are even spoken of separately in Rev. They are the souls who came through great tribulation. Not all saints are designated that way.

These saints are not the church.

They are different people than the church.  The church never is seen in the tribulation.

 

 

Those saints are seen under the altar before the Trib of Satan and told to WAIT until A SEASON, aka the trib of Satan, until their FELLOWSERVANTS ARE KILLED.  So their fellow servants have got to be here.  

Where do you find TRIBULATION SAINTS written in the words of God?  Would that be alongside 'bride of Christ' and/or 'Pre trib rapture' and/or 'church age'? NONE of which you can find in GODS WORDS.


Doesn't it bother that EVERYTHING about PRE TRIB is made up of mans words and conclusions, and not Gods words and precepts?  




 

[BibleWords]

That is ridiculous.

6 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Those saints are seen under the altar before the Trib of Satan and told to WAIT until A SEASON, aka the trib of Satan, until their FELLOWSERVANTS ARE KILLED.  So their fellow servants have got to be here.  

Where do you find TRIBULATION SAINTS written in the words of God?  Would that be alongside 'bride of Christ' and/or 'Pre trib rapture' and/or 'church age'? NONE of which you can find in GODS WORDS.


Doesn't it bother that EVERYTHING about PRE TRIB is made up of mans words and conclusions, and not Gods words and precepts?  




 

That is ridiculous.

Have you ever noticed that the word Bible is also not found in the Bible.

Neither is the word Trinity.

That old analysis doesn’t work.

[DeighAnn]

On 4/22/2023 at 4:38 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Yes, Sir, there are differing views of who the Elders are and the timing of the Rapture. Bright godly men have debated theology for centuries and do not reach the same consensus.

I think MORE THAN anything else I have read,

this PROVES that PTR would be the LEAST EFFECTIVE thing God ever did


2000 years of SPREADING THE GOOD NEWS, that ends with knowledge running to and fro before Satan cast to the earth, at which point

HE REMOVES ALL THAT KNOWLEDGE from the earth AND instead, sends 2 GUYS from BEFORE ALL TECHNOLOGY was seen, to do it all,

in HOPES that by seeing 'the miracle' of the church raptured

THOSE WHO DIDN'T CARE and WOULDN'T COME TO FAITH, would not only start to care but in basically NO TIME AT ALL and with almost NO HELP, come to the understanding of what is written and "get it" BEFORE IT WAS TOO LATE aka 'take the mark of the beast' HAVING NO TIME TO HAVE PREPARED/GOTTEN EXTRA OIL,

while at the same time coming to accept they may ALSO have to COMMIT to accepting a 10 day trial that may end with them being beheaded, for the Holy Spirit to speak through them.  

Forgive me if I wrote this before and am repeating, but am trying to figure out how to put the right words, in the right order, to SHOW exactly what the PTRD is saying GODS PLAN really is

because from my point of view, it is the WORST plan ever and I still can't understand WHY He would ever do that especially with all the 'don't fear death', 'sheep led to slaughter' 'pick up cross or not worth' 'blood of saints precious' will recompense, never changes...the list goes on and on.   



 

[DeighAnn]

35 minutes ago, BibleWords said:

That is ridiculous.

Are you kidding?  The PTRD GOES AGAINST almost everything WRITTEN.  It adds and subtracts at will, and it's foundation is TOTALLY BASED upon assumptions and conclusions made by man.  

The church boasts of it being taken to safety while Israel is punished BY USING ALL JEWISH TRADITIONS

Not to mention IT CALLS INTO QUESTION so many things that should be taken as FACTS to come to understanding, basically doing the work of the enemy.


PRIME EXAMPLE -  2 THESS written to CORRECT a 'belief' THAT had sprung up way back then FROM THE 1ST LETTER....
 

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;  (PTRD certainly doesn't care about the brethren that comes after them)

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: (not some and not only up to a point, GREAT just being tooo much)

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: (no SCALE as to any amount being 'too much)

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (see who that 'vengeance' is going to fall upon?)

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (HOW EXACTLY can your testimony be believed when YOU weren't here to give it?)

11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (if indeed there is a coming BEFORE THIS, then THAT WOULD TURN ALL THAT FOLLOWS INTO A LIE, PURE AND SIMPLE)

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

3 TIMES, NOT GATHERING UNTIL AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN.  So He can't come before, He can't return without 'coming' when He comes it is in like manner that He left, when He comes it is as LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS, at the 2nd Advent, the day of vengeance.  

AGAIN, IF He came before that, then all this would be no more than lies.  



 

Edited April 25, 2023 by DeighAnn

[BibleWords]

28 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I think MORE THAN anything else I have read,

this PROVES that PTR would be the LEAST EFFECTIVE thing God ever did


2000 years of SPREADING THE GOOD NEWS, that ends with knowledge running to and fro before Satan cast to the earth, at which point

HE REMOVES ALL THAT KNOWLEDGE from the earth AND instead, sends 2 GUYS from BEFORE ALL TECHNOLOGY was seen, to do it all,

in HOPES that by seeing 'the miracle' of the church raptured

THOSE WHO DIDN'T CARE and WOULDN'T COME TO FAITH, would not only start to care but in basically NO TIME AT ALL and with almost NO HELP, come to the understanding of what is written and "get it" BEFORE IT WAS TOO LATE aka 'take the mark of the beast' HAVING NO TIME TO HAVE PREPARED/GOTTEN EXTRA OIL,

while at the same time coming to accept they may ALSO have to COMMIT to accepting a 10 day trial that may end with them being beheaded, for the Holy Spirit to speak through them.  

Forgive me if I wrote this before and am repeating, but am trying to figure out how to put the right words, in the right order, to SHOW exactly what the PTRD is saying GODS PLAN really is

because from my point of view, it is the WORST plan ever and I still can't understand WHY He would ever do that especially with all the 'don't fear death', 'sheep led to slaughter' 'pick up cross or not worth' 'blood of saints precious' will recompense, never changes...the list goes on and on.   



 

Did you ever think that maybe some of those warnings about don’t fear death and pick up your cross were also for the church age?  Much suffering for Christ has happened in the last 2000 years.