A Concern for Applying the Bible to the Natural Sciences

[The Barbarian]

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Evolution is a theory and a religion.

No one believes that; not even the guys to told you that lie.   It shows an appalling disrespect for faith, to equate science with faith.  Shame on them.

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It is NOT a fact.

I showed you that it's constantly being observed.  Can't get more factual than that.   Denying facts merely makes you a zealot.

He says the earth brought forth living things, including man

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

You give credit to the earth, but not to God. 

If you had read the Bible with some care, you'd know better:

Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

Foolish men are amazed about turning water to wine, but fail to realize that a child, an atom, a leaf of grass are miracles too.   None would exist without God's creation.

Nature is just the way He gets most things done in this world; have more trust in Him.

 

And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

(Argues that it happened later, so it means the same thing)

Sorry, you're trying to put word into God's mouth, again.   It's not the same thing.  God said nothing therein about punishing other living things, only Adam.

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The Bible doesn't say SPECIFICALLY either way

So you put you did it for Him.    YE creationists often say what they are certain God would have said, if He had all the facts.

23 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Man coming from apes was never observed. 

The Mississippi valley was never observed to form.   But it did and is.    You're reduced to admitting that a man can walk a mile, but insist that he can't walk a hundred miles because you've never seen anyone do that.

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

It DOES say man was created by God

You'll admit that much but you just don't like the way He did it.

8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

and did not evolve from anything.

And you're back to putting words in God's mouth for Him.   Bad idea.   You are "teaching" something that is in direct contrast to the Scriptures.  That makes you a false teacher.  If the Scriptures are true, then much of what you post is not true. 

Try to put your pride aside and let it be His way.    Your new doctrines are worship of man, nothing more than another god to put before God. 

Something we are strongly warned against doing.   Try to do better.

 

 

Edited February 26 by The Barbarian

[RV_Wizard]

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

It shows an appalling disrespect for faith, to equate science with faith. 

Evolution is not science.  Evolution is a religion of origins based on untestable presumptions.  

It becomes obvious that most of the great world religions—Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Hinduism, Animism, etc. are based on evolution. Creationism is the basis of only such systems as Orthodox Judaism, Islam and Biblical Christianity. The liberal varieties of Judaism, Islam, Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as most modern pseudo-Christian cults, are all based on evolution.

it is fair to conclude that no truly significant accomplishment of modern science either depends on evolution or supports evolution!  Source

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Genesis 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

Also from Genesis 1:

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Nature is just the way He gets most things done in this world

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Note.  There is no mention of  animals eating each other.  In fact, it specifically notes that all  living things were vegetarian.)

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Somehow, you NEVER post the rest of the passage.  The truth gets in the way of your false teaching.

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Your new doctrines

If I had a dollar for every lie you've posted here I would retire.  Adam believed in creation.  So did Moses.  God wrote on a stone tablet that He created it all in six days.  Jesus said man and woman were created from the beginning.  Your false religion is the new teaching.  

[The Barbarian]

41 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Evolution is not science. 

Evolution is an observed phenomenon.   Evolutionary theory is the science that explains it.    I think you've confused evolution (change in allele frequencies in a population) with universal common descent, which is a discovery of genetics.   As I showed you, Darwinian theory is not about universal common descent.   Even Darwin suggested that God might have created a number of first organisms.

Even some of your fellow YE creationists realize that evolutionary theory is good science:
Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution.

https://toddcwood.blogspot.com/2009/09/truth-about-evolution.html

41 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

it is fair to conclude that no truly significant accomplishment of modern science either depends on evolution or supports evolution! 

Sir Alexander Flemming, the discoverer of penicillin, predicted that careless use of the antibiotic would lead to the evolution of resistance in bacteria.   He was correct.   Evolutionary theory is now used by physicians to design antibiotic protocols to prevent or delay such evolution.   This application of the theory has saved many lives. It's not a recent thing; your source is really out of date.   

Another case: Darwin's theory had a huge problem in his time.   You see, he could not explain how a new trait would spread in a population.   Scientists at the time thought that heredity was in the blood and so a new trait would then be erased like a drop of red paint in a barrel of white paint.   

Then genetics was discovered and the reason for evolution became clear.   Shortly after that, pretty much all biologists accepted evolution.

There's more, if you need more.

41 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

If I had a dollar for every lie you've posted here I would retire. 

I never say anything here that I don't believe to be true.   You've posted a lot of lies here, but I really think you were just fooled by others who lied to you.   The lie I just debunked above, for example.

Of course God made all things.   The point is that you don't like the way He did it.   And since Jesus says that God is a spirit and a spirit has no body, that means that the "image" is not a physical one, but in our minds and souls.   God doesn't have eyebrows, a nose or elbows; He's a spirit.    If He was localized in a body, He could not be everywhere.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27 by The Barbarian

[RV_Wizard]

40 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

I think you've confused evolution (change in allele frequencies in a population) with universal common descent

It's a common fallacy of evolution proponents to take that that which is known and extrapolate that into that which never happened, then use use the former to try and prove the latter.  ie, Because we can breed different species of dogs, therefore all living things share common ancestry.  It's all part of the same false religion.  We can't even agree that speciation took place since the great flood, because that's just one of many, many components of the Scriptures you reject.

54 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

Sir Alexander Flemming, the discoverer of penicillin, predicted that careless use of the antibiotic would lead to the evolution of resistance in bacteria.   He was correct. 

None of which has any relevance with the origination of life from a single progenitor, or the emergence of man from apes.  what is actually KNOWN about biology wouldn't be any different if one accepted the genetic bottleneck of those on the ark.

58 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

I never say anything here that I don't believe to be true.  

That's sad, really, because you believe things that have no basis in reality.  You seriously never read the entire first chapter of Genesis??  Let's look at your favorite lie; that creation is a new belief.

Importantly, the church never countenanced the idea that all nonliving and living things came into existence and developed according to processes like natural selection, speciation, and random mutations. Indeed, the early church soundly denounced the “atomic” theory that everything that exists started out by the accidental collision of small elements (“atoms”) and then fortuitously developed by chance. Rather than embrace randomness, the church praised the Creator, as Origen did: “We Christians, however, who are devoted to the worship of the only God, who created these things, feel grateful for them to him who made them” (Against Celsus, 4.75).

It wasn’t until the nineteenth century that the church, faced with many attacks against the authority and truthfulness of Scripture, began to waver on its doctrine of creation. source  (I think I've pointed out from at least five different sources that belief in an old earth came after the 19th century, thus making evolution the "new doctrine.)

Evolutionists generally claim that a population of animals gradually developed into a population of humans, denying that there was once only one man. However, the Bible presents a very different picture. It says that we originate from one man, Adam. The Bible account presents Adam as a historical person. It gives us the names of his wife and some of his children. It tells us in detail what he did, what he said, when he lived, and when he died. Jesus did not consider that account as just a story for uneducated people. When addressing well-educated religious leaders, he said: “Did you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female?” (Matthew 19:3-5) Jesus then quoted the words about Adam and Eve recorded at Genesis 2:24.

Luke, a Bible writer and a careful historian, presented Adam as a person who was as real as Jesus. Luke traced Jesus’ genealogy back to the first man. (Luke 3:23-38) Also, when the apostle Paul spoke before an audience that included philosophers who were educated in the famous Greek schools, he told them: “The God that made the world and all the things in it . . . made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth.” (Acts 17:24-26) Clearly, the Bible teaches that we descended from “one man.”  source

[The Barbarian]

I think you've confused evolution (change in allele frequencies in a population) with universal common descent.  It's a common fallacy of YE creationists to take the discovery of geneticists that all life has a common ancestor and attempt to graft that onto evolutionary theory.    

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

ie, Because we can breed different species of dogs, therefore all living things share common ancestry.

No.  Genetics notes that common descent is always reflected in genetic relatedness.   And we can check that conclusion by looking at organisms of known descent.  Always true.

And speciation has always gone on, you just tried to add it to God's word, as you aways do.

14 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

it is fair to conclude that no truly significant accomplishment of modern science either depends on evolution or supports evolution! 

Sir Alexander Flemming, the discoverer of penicillin, predicted that careless use of the antibiotic would lead to the evolution of resistance in bacteria.   He was correct.   Evolutionary theory is now used by physicians to design antibiotic protocols to prevent or delay such evolution.   This application of the theory has saved many lives. It's not a recent thing; your source is really out of date.   

Another case: Darwin's theory had a huge problem in his time.   You see, he could not explain how a new trait would spread in a population.   Scientists at the time thought that heredity was in the blood and so a new trait would then be erased like a drop of red paint in a barrel of white paint.   

Then genetics was discovered and the reason for evolution became clear.   Shortly after that, pretty much all biologists accepted evolution.

There's more, if you need more.

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

None of which has any relevance with the origination of life from a single progenitor, or the emergence of man from apes. 

Those facts merely expose your source as a fraud.    Many advances in science have come as the result of evolutionary theory.  Want to see some more?   And as you learned, genetics shows common ancestry, not evolutionary theory.

12 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Let's look at your favorite lie; that creation is a new belief.

I suppose I could characterize your statement as a lie, since I repeatedly showed you that God created all things, and that early Christians knew this.  But you seem so wrapped up in your new doctrines that you don't want to believe it.  

And one more time, Darwin's great discovery was that biological evolution does not happen by chance.  But if it did, it would not be a problem for Christians, who are aware that for an almighty God, divine providence can occur by necessity or by contingency.

Tossing out random quotes that don't address the issue, does you no good at all.

Edited February 27 by The Barbarian

[RV_Wizard]

21 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

The Barbarian said nothing he hadn't said many times.  Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.  The church believed in the creation until the 19th century until the satanic lies took hold with many, but calling belief in creation a new doctrine only solidifies in the minds of the rest of us that you don't have the slightest clue of which you speak.  You completely contradict the Scriptures, which we expect from atheists but not from professed Christians.  The fact that living beings can adapt to changes in diet or environment does NOT prove their origination.  All of life came from God.  God told us how He did it.  Your opinion means nothing compared to the word of God.

 

[The Barbarian]

On 2/28/2024 at 6:15 AM, RV_Wizard said:

The church believed in the creation until the 19th century until the satanic lies took hold with many, but calling belief in creation a new doctrine only solidifies in the minds of the rest of us that you don't have the slightest clue of which you speak. 

You've confused creation, which is what God did, and creationism, which is man's attempt to revise God's word.  

On 2/28/2024 at 6:15 AM, RV_Wizard said:

All of life came from God. 

You'll admit that much, but you won't admit how He did it.  

 

[RV_Wizard]

3 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

You've confused creation, which is what God did, and creationism, which is man's attempt to revise God's word. 

News flash!  You can't revise God's word by quoting God's word.  You CAN by taking phrases out of context, which is dishonest.

[The Barbarian]

9 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

News flash!  You can't revise God's word by quoting God's word.  You CAN by taking phrases out of context

... Which is what many creationists do.

 

 

[RV_Wizard]

52 minutes ago, The Barbarian said:

... Which is what many creationists do.

Every one I ever met posts complete passages; not phrases taken out of context.  When a sentence ends with "the evening and the morning were the fifth day, and you leave that out to claim it was millions of years, it is both a lie of omission and misrepresentation of what was written.  Creationists have the Scriptures on their side.  There is no possible way to twist what is written to make room for evolution.  Evolution is in conflict with much of the Bible.  We all choose which we will believe.  As for me, I believe the Bible as written.