The Barbarian Posted March 3 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,074 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 970 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 3 43 minutes ago, enoob57 said: When I read above @RV_Wizard I thought of the boys in Babylon and the fiery furnace... funny how we limit God to creation as if God were in submission to it... The Son said it best For a Christian, nature is the way God does most things in this world. But being God, He can set aside nature as He wishes. So miracles are not inconsistent with His creation. I don't see why people have such trouble understanding that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted March 3 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 773 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Author Share Posted March 3 2 hours ago, enoob57 said: funny how we limit God to creation as if God were in submission to it... True. The Creator is not bound by the laws of His creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted March 3 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 773 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Author Share Posted March 3 2 hours ago, The Barbarian said: You may think Christianity is "naturalism", No rational person would conclude that from my post. 2 hours ago, The Barbarian said: You attempt to subjugate the word of God at every point where it doesn't conform to your beliefs on YE creationism. My beliefs come 100% from the Scriptures. I'm not the one taking partial verses out of context to teach contrary to what the church has taught for 18 centuries. I don't reject Genesis 1:20-31, Genesis 2:7-8 and 21-25, Genesis 3:17-19, Genesis 7:17-24 or any other verses which reference the fact that God man man in His image. I'm not the one pretending that Adam's sin was not the catalyst that brought a curse to the planet and death to all living things. You attack the Bible with nearly every post you make. We know who rejects the Bible as written. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 3 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,460 Content Per Day: 8.09 Reputation: 622 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 3 8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: God did not create a world that fell into desolation, as you claim. I haven't "claimed" anything. I HAVE reported and proved what the literal Hebrew says after creation. 8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: You seem to not be able to see the obvious flaws in your claim. 1. You are claiming that an English translation hundreds of years earlier is less accurate than a much more recent translation that occurred at a time when people were trying to find a way to get long ages into the creation. I've shown that more than HALF of all translations on biblehub.com translate tohu in Isa 48:15 as "waste/wasteland". I've shown that about 20% of all occurrences of "ha-ye-tak" (exact same form of the verb found in Gen 1:2) were translated as "became/become" in the NASB, which is a translation of formal equivalence. I've provided proof. You have provided lots of opinion, none of it supported by ANY facts. 8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: 2. It ignores the fact that before light the planet would be totally incapable of supporting life. No life, no fossils. Your assumptions keep getting in the way of reason. What is clearly obvious from v.2 is that the planet WAS totally incapable of supporting life. Which is WHY God restored the planet. Thanks for making my point. 8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: 3. It is not only NOT supported by the Scriptures, other verses specifically contradict it. When you give an opinion, please provide verses that support what you claim. Like I have, by pointing out Isa 45:18 is contradicted by the common translation of Gen 1:2. 8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: 4. Like other theories of origination, it MUST ignore the 4th commandment as written by God. I've explained that clearly, so you have no point here, nor support. It is not referring to initial creation, since Moses used "asah" instead of "bara". 8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: 5. It's just plain stupid. God created a place inhospitable to any known life form that lasted for millions of years and then became an uninhabitable wasteland? Unbelievable! You STILL have a goofed up understanding. I've repeatedly said God created a perfect planet, which BECAME a wasteland. Why do you keep thinking that my view is that God created a dump? That is YOUR view, given your comfort level with "tohu" being used for original creation. When none of othe contexts support your opinion. 8 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: Then God, being embarrassed, lied about it? No chance. More absurdity. What's to be embarrassed about? He didn't cause the planet to become a dump. So restoring it for man would cause no embarrassment. It is YOUR opinion that would cause God to be embarrassed, in creating a planet that is described as "tohu wabohu", which is used to describe the total destruction of land in Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11. Your claims are worse than absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 3 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,460 Content Per Day: 8.09 Reputation: 622 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 3 4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: My beliefs come 100% from the Scriptures. No, your beliefs come from lousy English translations. There are better translations, as I have shown you. 4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: I'm not the one taking partial verses out of context to teach contrary to what the church has taught for 18 centuries. And how accurate has "the church" been for 18 centuries? And why is that even relevant? What is totally relevant is what the very Word of God says. Which you ignore. 4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: We know who rejects the Bible as written. lol. From a guy who rejects the literal Hebrew and throws with translations that can't be defended, esp since there are translations that properly translate "tohu". It neither means "formless" which is idiotic, since no object is or can be, nor can it be used for original creation, since it is a word for "waste/chaos/wasteland/desolation/etc". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted March 3 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,074 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 970 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 3 (edited) 4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: My beliefs come 100% from the Scriptures. Except where you take partial verses out of context to teach contrary to what the church has taught for 18 centuries. You reject what Jesus says about God being a spirit and spirits having no body. You try to redefine words to get Genesis to fit your new doctrines. 4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: I'm not the one pretending that Adam's sin was not the catalyst that brought a curse to the planet and death to all living things. Scripture doesn't say that it brought death to all living things. That's your words you put in God's mouth because you aren't happy with the things He actually tells you. You try to undermine the Bible with nearly every post you make. Edited March 3 by The Barbarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted March 4 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 773 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Author Share Posted March 4 2 hours ago, FreeGrace said: I've shown that more than HALF of all translations on biblehub.com translate tohu in Isa 48:15 as "waste/wasteland". Not a single translation you posted said anything about the earth becoming anything. Becoming a wasteland is your heresy. 2 hours ago, FreeGrace said: Which is WHY God restored the planet Nothing you have ever posted indicates that prior to Genesis 1:2 the earth was capable of supporting life of any kind. There was no restoration because there was no live of any kind prior to day three. 2 hours ago, FreeGrace said: When you give an opinion, please provide verses that support what you claim. I've given you dozens. 2 hours ago, FreeGrace said: It is not referring to initial creation, Your claim has no support. God was perfectly capable of mentioning a restoration, but He said "in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day." No mention of millions of years or any restoration. You're regurgitating 18th century false doctrine. 2 hours ago, FreeGrace said: He didn't cause the planet to become a dump. So in your mind something beyond God's control cause His creation to become a wasteland, but He just told everyone it was only a six day creation? Again, you're repeating 18th century heresy. There is no truth in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted March 4 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 773 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Author Share Posted March 4 2 hours ago, FreeGrace said: What is totally relevant is what the very Word of God says. Which you misrepresent constantly. 2 hours ago, FreeGrace said: And how accurate has "the church" been for 18 centuries? How accurate did Jesus believe the Scriptures to be? Why would anyone take your opinion when the only goal is to make an excuse to believe in an ancient earth in contradiction to the plain word of God. 2 hours ago, FreeGrace said: From a guy who rejects the literal Hebrew and throws with translations that can't be defended I completely disagree with your lousy interpretation of Hebrew. I would point out once more that the words "became a wasteland" exist only in your mind. No interpretation you posted agrees with it. Nobody agrees with you. Gap theory on its best day is just plain stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted March 4 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 773 Content Per Day: 0.83 Reputation: 327 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Author Share Posted March 4 2 hours ago, The Barbarian said: You reject what Jesus says about God being a spirit and spirits having no body. Ah, more untruths from the Barbarian. Next perhaps you will try and convince us that the sun orbits the earth. Jesus actually QUOTED from Genesis. Matthew 19:4-5. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Matthew 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Either God created man in His image or man evolved from lesser creatures. Either we believe you or the word of God. Since the word of God is truth and you post provable falsehoods, you have no credibility to override God's word. 2 hours ago, The Barbarian said: Scripture doesn't say that it brought death to all living things. Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Everything on the earth was designed to eat green herbs. Of course you reject this. You reject everything that interferes with your primary religion; evolution. Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Prior to the fall, nothing died. Evolution requires millions of years of death and change, so therefore, you reject God's word. Either way, it's rather anecdotal. Death would have to come to the animal kingdom eventually for there to be a balance between predator and prey. Either that or at some point reproduction would have to cease. It doesn't look like man could resist temptation long enough for that to have been a factor. Regardless, It is not possible to reconcile evolution with Genesis. You either believe God or you don't. We all know you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted March 4 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,074 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 970 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 4 Scripture doesn't say that it brought death to all living things. 1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said: Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. Everything on the earth was designed to eat green herbs. That doesn't say Adam's sin brought death to all living things, either. Why pretend that it does? 1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said: Either God created man in His image or man evolved from lesser creatures. You think God couldn't chose a creature to make like Him? C'mon. You're trying to tell God what He can and can't do. 1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said: Prior to the fall, nothing died. Bible doesn't say that so therefore, you reject God's word. You just added it to make His word more acceptable to you. Regardless, It is not possible to reconcile YE creationism with Genesis. You either believe God or you don't. We all know you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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