FreeGrace Posted February 29 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,415 Content Per Day: 8.22 Reputation: 609 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted February 29 2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said: It's in the book. One more thing. The English translations of Gen 1:2 are NOT in "the Book", as you hope for. The literal Hebrew words of v.2 are competely different than your favorite English translation. And there are 5 English translations that I had no part in that got "tohu" correct!! But you are rather comfortable trying to force an "unsightly waste and chaos" into original creation, which is absolute nonsense. Here is Isa 45:18. "God DID NOT create the earth formless" So, which verse do you need to cut out of your Bible to avoid such a contradiction? For me, I will cut out EVERY English translation that has "formless" in it. Because no object can be formless. Every object has form. You can't get around it. You can deny it, but it's still there. You can try to explain it away, but it's still there. Formlessness only works in a comparison between 2 similar objects, but one lacking some form that the other object has that is common such objects. I've already given one good example; the female form. We easily understand what that refers to; a female having typical curves. So a female lacking the typical female curves could be said to be formless. However, in the literal sense, she STILL HAS a form. And such females are described as being a "bean pole" or "broom handle", both of which ARE a form. So, you can't get around it no matter how much you fantisize. There is no such thing as an object that is formless. Any more than God is so powerful as to create a weight too heavy for Him to lift. Do you see the insanity here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted February 29 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks Posted February 29 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,159 Content Per Day: 2.04 Reputation: 2,513 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/20/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 29 1 minute ago, The Barbarian said: The irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted February 29 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 29 7 hours ago, FreeGrace said: Because no object can be formless. Every object has form. You can't get around it. You can deny it, but it's still there. You can try to explain it away, but it's still there. The usual explanation for this in Genesis is that it's a description an initial chaotic stage to creation. However, that's not something all Christians believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted February 29 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 29 Just now, Sparks said: The irony. Actually I'm not sure you were throwing the accusation around. As you know, I prefer not assume people here are lying, although they probably have been lied to. I guess I could check and see about that, but it really doesn't matter to me. If it doesn't apply to you, that's fine; I didn't intend it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeGrace Posted March 1 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,415 Content Per Day: 8.22 Reputation: 609 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/07/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, The Barbarian said: FreeGrace said: Because no object can be formless. Every object has form. You can't get around it. You can deny it, but it's still there. You can try to explain it away, but it's still there. The usual explanation for this in Genesis is that it's a description an initial chaotic stage to creation. However, that's not something all Christians believe. That's what's so ironic. They are claiming that God was a sloppy Creator. Why would omnipotent God begin with a chaotic stage of creation when He has all the power to begin with a fully finished product? It makes no sense. There simply is NO example of any object that is formless. Even a blob of clay has form, before the artisan begins his work. The very word "blob" describes form. So these deniers can't get around it, as much as they'd like to. A cloud is a blob of water saturated air. A gas that is invisible has no form because it can't be seen. But put any kind of particles in it, it becomes visible and can be described as having form. But these people are so bent on defending their indefensible position of a very young earth they simply can't see the illogic of their position. It's clear from Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11 that "tohu wabohu" is used to describe a land that has been totally destroyed, so that it is an uninhabitable wasteland. Should be case closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Barbarian Posted March 1 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,051 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 969 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 1 4 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: That's what's so ironic. They are claiming that God was a sloppy Creator. Why would omnipotent God begin with a chaotic stage of creation when He has all the power to begin with a fully finished product? It makes no sense. Unless He created nature to develop according to the rules He set forth. But the "chaos" seems to reflect common Middle Eastern cosmogenies of the time. So not a certainty. 6 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: There simply is NO example of any object that is formless. Even a blob of clay has form, before the artisan begins his work. The very word "blob" describes form. Correct. So I think you're on to something; maybe a bad translation for chaos. 7 minutes ago, FreeGrace said: It's clear from Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11 that "tohu wabohu" is used to describe a land that has been totally destroyed, so that it is an uninhabitable wasteland. Haven't looked at that, myself. I'll see what I can find on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted March 1 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 313 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Author Share Posted March 1 13 hours ago, FreeGrace said: God did not provide ANY details of what or how the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland. Why would He? It never happened! 13 hours ago, FreeGrace said: But the Hebrew clearly shows that is what happened. Maybe your new interpretation does, but the original does not. You're making up an excuse to stick billions of years into a day. 13 hours ago, FreeGrace said: Remember, since v.2 SAYS that the earth became a wasteland, Except that it doesn't. The word BECAME is not in any of your translations. You made that up. 13 hours ago, FreeGrace said: What we find in Genesis 1:2ff isn't original creation. In v.1 God created a perfect earth and universe. In v.2 the earth became something it wasn't created as, and therefore God restored it for man's use. I'm sorry, but not only is this belief not Biblical, it's just plain ludicrous. God created a perfect planet in absolute darkness and absolute zero? what's so perfect about that? Admit it; you're trying to insert long ages where they cannot fit. 13 hours ago, FreeGrace said: Whatever would be a theory is what may have happened between v.1 and 2 that led to the earth becoming an uninhabitable wasteland. It's called Gap Theory. It makes absolutely no sense. I have no idea why you would be promoting it. 13 hours ago, FreeGrace said: Just accept the reality that v.1 is original creation, and we don't know anything about it. You seem to know about it; that it was a thriving, perfect creation that fell into desolation and needed to be restored so it could support living things. However, God doesn't make mistakes, so He never would have had such a thing happen. 13 hours ago, FreeGrace said: I say the earth and universe is also very old, but have a much more realistic and logical answer as to why that is. I would say that it's equally impossible and equally contrary to God's word. You can't overcome the fact that the earth at first created was a floating rock in darkness. There is absolutely no reason God would leave it for billions of years. By the way, the earth pre-dates the stars by three days. How is it they appear older than the earth? 14 hours ago, FreeGrace said: In fact, I have given you the literal Hebrew over and over and you do is insult the Scriptures, and cling to a very poor and senseless translation of Gen 1:2. No, I find fault with your improper usage of the Hebrew words. I will stick with the original King James version. You keep going. Maybe one day someone will slip a "became" in there for you. So far, NONE of your definitions support the idea that the earth BECAME a wasteland. You can't even make your own sources agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted March 1 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 313 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Author Share Posted March 1 12 hours ago, The Barbarian said: First you tried to hide the problem by telling us that a big light in the sky would be morning. But if so, moonrise would be morning. Why are you incapable of understanding that light was created on day one and the moon on day four, when the sun was created? Moonrise is called night. Duh! 12 hours ago, The Barbarian said: As you learned, evolution is directly observed today. It happens in all populations , including human populations. What occurs today is not in question. It's when you claim that all of life came from a single progenitor and that man evolved instead of being created by God that we call FALSE!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RV_Wizard Posted March 1 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 313 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/22/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1962 Author Share Posted March 1 12 hours ago, FreeGrace said: Because no object can be formless. Something formless either has no definite shape, like fog or smoke, or lacks structure, like a formless movie that doesn't seem to have much of a plot. You can use this adjective to describe things that are physically vague and shapeless, from formless crowds of people surging forward at a rock concert or the formless, ghost-like shapes in your dark basement. It's also good for things like songs, poems, ideas, or concepts that are unstructured or incoherent and hard to make sense of. source We'd take your knowledge of Hebrew more seriously if you better understood English. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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