Rapture

November 12, 2005

Hi All.

Although you have asked for verses that refer to the rapture & show of the rapture, I feel that the only way to show this is in full. Therefore here is a study I did long ago that not only shows that the rapture will occur & is in the Bible but that it can be nothing more than a pre-trib rapture. I hope that you will enjoy doing this study I did.

God Bless to you all

831

Proof For A Pre Tribulation Rapture

This paper examines what the bible says about the pre tribulation rapture of True Christians. All scripture is from the KJV and is in red. The bold is mine and is the part I will comment on. I often left passages intact since it shows the context of the passage.

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Isaiah 56:8-12 through Isaiah 57-4:

Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather [others] to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Isa 56:9 All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, [yea], all ye beasts in the forest.

Isa 56:10 His watchmen [are] blind: they are all ignorant, they [are] all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

Isa 56:11 Yea, [they are] greedy dogs [which] can never have enough, and they [are] shepherds [that] cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

Isa 56:12 Come ye, [say they], I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, [and] much more abundant.

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth [06] , and no man layeth [it] to heart: and merciful men [are] taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil [to come]. [see Strong's definition [06] for 'Perisheth' directly below this passage]

Isa 57:2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, [each one] walking [in] his uprightness.

Isa 57:3 But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore.

Isa 57:4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, [and] draw out the tongue? [are] ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,

PERISHETH : 06 'abad {aw-bad'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 2; v AV - perish 98, destroy 62, lose 10, fail 2, surely 2, utterly 2, broken 1, destruction 1, escape 1, flee 1, spendeth 1, take 1, undone 1, void 1; 184

1) perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed

1a) (Qal)

1a1) perish, die, be exterminated

1a2) perish, vanish (fig.)

1a3) be lost, strayed

1b) (Piel)

1b1) to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up (as lost), exterminate

1b2) to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (fig.)

1b3) cause to stray, lose

1c) (Hiphil)

1c1) to destroy, put to death

1c1a) of divine judgment

It is logical to use 'Vanish' for 'perish' since it is about the righteous and they are 'taken away' from the evil that is to come. The above passage shows that the righteous will disappear in the rapture and the wicked that are left will not understand what happened. It could be the wicked are given the strong delusion to believe The Lie of what happened when the rapture occurs (2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:) or there will be an attack at the same time as the rapture and those that are left will give the missing up as lost just like the victims of the WTC attack on 9-11-01 were given up as lost, presumed dead.

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Micah 7:1-3:

Mic 7:1 Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: [there is] no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit.

Mic 7:2 The good [man] is perished [06] out of the earth: and [there is] none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net. [see Strong's [06] 'Perisheth', above]

Mic 7:3 That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge [asketh] for a reward; and the great [man], he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up. 1c2) object name of kings (fig.)

Once again, the righteous are removed, then evil takes over, and people hunt each other.

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Gates of hell will not prevail against the church, but will prevail against the tribulation saints. Compare the following two verses:

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

AND

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Obviously both can not be true unless they are about different groups of people (1) The Church that is removed before the tribulation and 2) Those that become Believers during the tribulation)

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Daniel's 70th week corresponds with the bridal week. Jesus takes His bride before the tribulation (bridal week, Daniel's 70th week) and she is presented as His WIFE (the marriage had been consumated during the wedding week and she is now His wife, and not His bride) at the end of the wedding week (before the end of the tribulation) and the wedding feast:

Revelation:

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. Please see my Commentary on Revelation 16:15 Those called unto the marriage supper are the GUESTS for the feast after the wedding week.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Compare this with what Jesus warns the Church Of Pergamos: Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Note that the Church is in heaven before the end of the tribulation and is presented as Jesus' WIFE This shows the marriage is already completed and the rapture could not happen after the marriage. The Church attends Jesus when He goes to do battle at Armeggedon. The wedding week is over, the church is presented as Jesus' wife, the wedding feast is about to begin and the wedding guests have been called to the feast:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Many people who falsely believe the rapture is after the tribulation use this verse as "proof" for their view. They have obviously confused the wedding guests with the Bride. Please read my Commentary on Revelation 16:15 to understand that this verse is about those who have survived the tribulation and will enter the Millenium Kingdom alive (the sheep of the sheep and goats judgement)

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Compare the promise of the church of Philadelphia with the warning to the church of Thyatira:

Philadelphia: Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from [1537] the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

From 1537 ek {ek} or ex {ex}

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative;; prep AV - of 366, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 98; 921

1) out of, from, by, away from

Thyatira:

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

The church of Philadelphia is given a promise to escape from the tribulation and the church of Thyatira is warned that unless they repent, they will be thrown into the tribulation.

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Mathew 24:36-39 and Luke 17:26-30:

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And the parrallel passage in Luke:

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The days of Noah people were not in judgement - they were going on with every day life. Judgement did not start until after Noah was removed out of harms way. The date of the second coming can be determined by counting the days from the antichrist signing the covenant as well as the number of days left after the abomination of desolation so this shows that this passage is about the pre tribulation rapture. At the end of the tribulation, the earth will be almost destroyed and no one will be able to plant nor will anyone be building. Most of the earth's population will have been killed. The only buying and selling at the end of the tribulation will be done by those who have the antichrist's mark - and with famine during the tribulation, they certainly will not be eating and drinking! Most of those saved during the tribulation will be beheaded by the midpoint of the tribulation (right after antichrist's mark is introduced) :

Revelation:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

* * * * * * *

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

* * * * * * *

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

* * * * * * *

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [i saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Obviously the above shows that people will not be eating, drinking, and marrying at the end of the tribulation. Those who become believers during the tribulation will be beheaded for their faith. Because of the severity of the tribulation judgements, there will not be any farming and there will be major famine throughout the world. The world will be virtually destroyed and it is unthinkable that people will be going on with everyday life towards the end of the tribulation. Noah was removed before the flood, Lot was removed before the judgement of Sodom, and the True Christians will be removed before the tribulation

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Luke 21:28-36:

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.

Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape [1628] all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

ESCAPE 1628 ekpheugo {ek-fyoo'-go}

from 1537 and 5343;; v

AV - escape 5, flee 2; 7

1) to flee out of, flee away

1a) to seek safety in flight

1b) to escape

Jesus Himself said to look up when these signs BEGIN to unfold. He also promised that some people (True Christians) will escape the tribulation. Since the signs are already here, we are commanded to LOOK UP because our redemption is very close. This is definitely about a pre-tribulation rapture.

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II Peter 2:4-9:

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Once again, this shows Noah was removed from judgement, Lot was removed from judgement, and the True Christians will be removed before the tribulation judgement.

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John 14:2-3:

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Since the Believers will be on earth with Jesus during the Millenial kingdom, why would Jesus be building mansions for us unless we were going to live in them during the tribulation? If you study the Jewish Wedding, you know Jesus is building His bride a house before He goes and gets her. The only reason He is building is because we need somewhere to live during the tribulation / wedding week. The following passage makes this clear:

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Joel 2:1-16:

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;

Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations.

Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

Joe 2:4 The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

Joe 2:14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:

Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

The tribulation followed by the bridegroom leaving His chamber and the bride out of her closet. Once again, this shows the church (the bride) will not be on earth during the tribulation / wedding week. The bride will be hidden away in her closet for safety. See the following:

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Zephaniah 2:1-3:

Zep 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

Zep 2:2 Before the decree bring forth, [before] the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

Once again, the righteous will be hidden away from the tribulation judgements.

November 13, 2005

In John Chapter 5 Jesus tells how God the Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says "He that heareth my word and believeth on him the sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those "that have done good," and a resurrection for those "that have done evil."

In Revelation, there is a reference to "the first resurrection." This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, and clearly states that they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Later John says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Later he says "when the thousand years expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged..." This clearly states that theres are 2 resurrections--one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine teaches that believers that live in the last generation will be"changed" into a resurrected or eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period--which is generally believed to be 7 years long. The doctrine then goes on to say that there will be many "tribulation saints" that come to know Christ after the so-called rapture. While the "raptured" believers are in heaven during the tribulation, all of most of these "tribulation saints" will all be killed for their faith during the tribulation.

Revelation does describe believers that are martyred during the Great Tribulation. John writes that "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God...and they lived and reigned with him a thousand years." The problem should already be apparent. If the dead believers are resurrected at the same time as the 'rapture' before the tribulation, how then can these co-called "tribulation saints" be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?

Clearly there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost. If you have the "dead in Christ" rising at the time of the fictional "rapture" before the tribulation and falsely named "tribulation saints" later raised after the tribulation is over, you then have two resurrections of the believers. That contradicts the plain teaching of the scriptures.

This problem is usually attempted to be answered by saying the raptured believers as "firstfruits" rather than resurrected believers-- that way they can still have the "real" resurrection at the end of the Tribulation. Apostle Paul precludes this as he writes that the resurrection will occur for "...every man in his own order: Christ the first firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

If you take away the preconceived notion of a "rapture" the problems also go away. Jesus returns at the second coming at the end of the tribulation. There will be Christians that are alive at that time. All dead believers will be resurrected from the dead at this return, and "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds."

So this clearly states that believers will be "gathered" at the second coming --not some secret, invisible return the precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem is how the rapture is being taught today doesn't even exist; the problem is our understanding of the resurrection.

Hope this isn't too confusing for you. Don't believe anything you hear unless it can be proven in the bible.

November 13, 2005

Hi All.

Hi Justin 62, can I please just say to you rather than coming straight in & making the points you have or claims that you have why do you not just do the study & see if it is right. Then if you have the same problems with it we can then try to sort those problems out. The problem I have is you have just come in & made the remarks you have with out trying to go through the study I have put, I am sure that if you go through this study you will find that it will answer your questions with no problem at all.

Also I would suggest that you try & go to a site called Ariel Ministries that is run by a man a Messianic Jew by the name of Dr Arnold Fruchtenbuam here is the link http://www.ariel.org/ this man is about the best teacher around at the moment, he is known as the teachers teacher, so I ask you first to go through the study that I have given & then to try this site & I am sure that after you have done this you will find that all your questions have been answered & you will also see that the Pre-trib scenario is the truth & is the only one that fits all the facts from the Bible, not one of the other scenario's covers all that is said in the word with regard to the rapture & end times, the only one that does is the one I have mentioned please do the study & go to this site I am sure you will be very happy that you did so .

God Bless to you all

831

November 13, 2005

Did you even read anything I wrote? Sorry to say it but you need to research your 100 year old Margaret MacDonald (Amityvile Horror) theory that was introduced by John Darby. Most pretribs quote from the Didache "Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh." But if you keep on reading the next few phrases clearly show a post-tribulational perspective in this ancient manuscript: "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse of it." Clearly the Didache believed the church would be in the tribulation, but most pretribs leave this out. Your pretrib belief is a hundred years old and if you research a little more than what pretribs teach you, you'll realize it is not documented anywhere before John Darby. It clearly says in the bible these facts, no twisting and no secret. It contradicts what you think clearly, and doesn't take a scholar to interpret or alter. This reminds me of Noah and the flood, they had no idea destruction was about to fall. This is precisely how Christ said it would be in the end time, "...just as it was in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the son of man be." Your expecting the rapture instead of a sudden destruction from God that will leave the true believer unscathed, but destroy vast numbers of others. It is the believers in the pretrib rapture that "know not" and great judgement coming because most of them foolishly refuse to closely examine the truth of this prophecy. The reason people are saying so much about pretrib is because so many are getting rich off of books, movies, etc, and your going right along with it blindly. I was hoping that you would learn something, instead of questioning Post-Tribulation and what I have researched. It bothers me when people still deny these facts. Since you still do not understand, then all I can do is pray that God will open your eyes.

Edited November 13, 2005 by Justin62

2nd2n1roc · November 13, 2005

In John Chapter 5 Jesus tells how God the Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says "He that heareth my word and believeth on him the sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those "that have done good," and a resurrection for those "that have done evil."

In Revelation, there is a reference to "the first resurrection." This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, and clearly states that they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Later John says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Later he says "when the thousand years expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged..." This clearly states that theres are 2 resurrections--one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine teaches that believers that live in the last generation will be"changed" into a resurrected or eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period--which is generally believed to be 7 years long. The doctrine then goes on to say that there will be many "tribulation saints" that come to know Christ after the so-called rapture. While the "raptured" believers are in heaven during the tribulation, all of most of these "tribulation saints" will all be killed for their faith during the tribulation.

Revelation does describe believers that are martyred during the Great Tribulation. John writes that "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God...and they lived and reigned with him a thousand years." The problem should already be apparent. If the dead believers are resurrected at the same time as the 'rapture' before the tribulation, how then can these co-called "tribulation saints" be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?

Clearly there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost. If you have the "dead in Christ" rising at the time of the fictional "rapture" before the tribulation and falsely named "tribulation saints" later raised after the tribulation is over, you then have two resurrections of the believers. That contradicts the plain teaching of the scriptures.

This problem is usually attempted to be answered by saying the raptured believers as "firstfruits" rather than resurrected believers-- that way they can still have the "real" resurrection at the end of the Tribulation. Apostle Paul precludes this as he writes that the resurrection will occur for "...every man in his own order: Christ the first firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

If you take away the preconceived notion of a "rapture" the problems also go away. Jesus returns at the second coming at the end of the tribulation. There will be Christians that are alive at that time. All dead believers will be resurrected from the dead at this return, and "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds."

So this clearly states that believers will be "gathered" at the second coming --not some secret, invisible return the precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem is how the rapture is being taught today doesn't even exist; the problem is our understanding of the resurrection.

Hope this isn't too confusing for you. Don't believe anything you hear unless it can be proven in the bible.

Confusing ? It is perfectly clear that you are confused, 'cause you got " How so ? " questions.

It is absolutely safe and everything you feel and believe is perfect, as long as you respect

God's words that " only chosen will know secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, and others will not. "

The Truth is everlasting or eternal dimension that never changes. It is Ultimate reality that never changes. People never change, they just didn't realize who they are. Because,

we All have unique DNA structure, that after we're concieved, never changes. Ten years ago,

you ( probably ) did not know that you will read word of God with such a Passion and Delight,

and today you do. So it was always in you, you just did not know is there.

Jesus did not know who He is, when He was born, there is 17 year gap in His Life that we don't know did He know who He is. Everything that is Important to Us is what He did in the last

Three years of His Life.

If we stick to the truth that God is Living God, and Living God Only, Confusion about

Resurrection should disappear.

We are Dead as soon as we are born, by default, thanks to our " First couple ", we just believe we are alive. Second death is Phisycal death, and that is the End of the story for that flesh.

Your first resurrection is when you start feeling you are One with God, so therefore, by the fact He is above you ( above meaning He Created you, not other way around ), you are walking His Path, not yours. Second resurrection will happen' when you meet Him.

John and rest of disciples have lived and experienced Everything that Jesus did.

Inspired by that Power and capable of using Dictionary that Existed 1900 years ago, John's

words sound like Science fiction, that you feel literally.

much respect !

November 13, 2005