Satan is in hell?

[Guest zebulon]

I don't believe anyone is presently in any hell or heaven. The "holding tank" idea is also part of myth, taken from Greco-Roman beliefs. Faithful Jews never had such a thing. Sheol to them was simply the grave, and the dead await, in sleep, the resurrection. This truth has been lost thanks to Roman heresies, just as it was lost at the time of Christ, through Helenism which influenced the Jews into accepting Greco-Roman myths of the 'afterlife' -- even to adopting their definition and understanding of what the "soul" is. The Bible teaches an entirely different paradigm of spiritual cosmology.

the story of the Rich man and Lazarus is perhaps the one thing that has confused Christians for centuries. Not recognizing that Jesus is using the Helenized view in order to prove its absurdity, it has become adopted into the Christian cosmology. And yet, Paul tells us plainly, as Jesus does, that the dead are asleep until the resurrection.

When Jesus' friend Lazarus died, Jesus proved that Lazarus had "gone" nowhere. "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." He asked Martha is she believed in the resurrection and in him, and she rightly said " I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." She didn't believe he floated off to some "holding tank" in an afterlife of souls. She knew better. And Jesus confirmed her understanding, and even amplified it by showing her HE was the resurrection and the Life itself, and called Lazarus out of the sleep of death to life again. One would have to believe that the Lord took righteous Lazarus out of Paradise and put him back in sinful flesh! The truth is, Lazarus was asleep "in Christ", as Paul also says:

"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." 1 Cor 15:16

How could those who have, according to contemporary beliefs, died and gone to heaven and or paradise, be "perished" (which in the greek is the same term used for damned) if there is no resurrection? Contemporary beliefs place the soul or spirit apart from the body and either in a place of punishment or in a place of comfort and peace... but here Paul tells us, if there is no resurrection of the dead, then those who have died (fallen asleep) in Christ are damned.. perished... non-existant... doomed. ?!?! Obviously SOMETHING is amiss in the contemporary understanding of the dead! To which Jesus says plainly,

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." john 5:28

Jesus as Jesus told his disciples, they could not go where he was going, but that he would come again, and receive them to himself, that where he is they might be also. Has Jesus done this? No, not yet. They, like us, await the only other life there is, and that is the resurrection, at his coming.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Dan 12

And God is not unjust. A man which died in his sins 6000 years ago has been tormented in "hades" all this time, while yet another man far more evil than he, who dies just before the end of the world, only spends a short time in torment? then both are brought out of one torment and cast into the lake of fire for eternal torment???? This not only doesn't make sense, doesn't reflect the character or nature of God, but is unjust and ridiculous. Likewise, someone who died 6000 years ago redeemed, has spent all this time in paradise in comfort, only to be put back in their bodies, glorified and then to dwell here on earth in the Kingdom? For scripture says plainly Jesus will bring with him all those who have fallen asleep for the resurrection and that he will rule from David's throne. Paul even says, comparing our bodies to a building, that we have no desire to be disembodied (naked) spirits, but rather, we await that building/clothing from God, our resurrection body, which is like Christ's resurrection body... eternal.

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor 15:49

Mortal must "put on" immortality... corruption must "put on" incorruption. When? At the resurrection of the dead. We shall all be 'changed.' But as he says, "we shall not all sleep."

Paul said a crown of righteousness was laid up for him. Where, in heaven? No, not at all. "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." 2 Tim. 4:7

What day? the day he dies? No! At Christ's appearing! At the second coming/first resurrection.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" john 11:25

He that believes in him, though he dies, will live again

He that is alive when he comes shall never die at all

[Adstar]

Hello zebulon

Faithful Jews never had such a thing.

then why did the Messiah Jesus use this parable if the Jews never believed in hell/Hades?

Luke16: 19-30

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24"Then he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25But Abraham said, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

27"Then he said, "I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, "No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31But he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."'

Note: The rich man says to Abraham to allow lazarus to warn his "five brothers". The rich man is in Hades as his brothers are still alive. Would Jesus tell this parable if there was no Hell and people where not in it?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Guest shadow2b]

Hello zebulon

Faithful Jews never had such a thing.

then why did the Messiah Jesus use this parable if the Jews never believed in hell/Hades?

Luke16: 19-30

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24"Then he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25But Abraham said, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

27"Then he said, "I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, "No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31But he said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."'

Note: The rich man says to Abraham to allow lazarus to warn his "five brothers". The rich man is in Hades as his brothers are still alive. Would Jesus tell this parable if there was no Hell and people where not in it?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

:t3: :t3: :t3: :t3: :t3: :tongue: :il: :x: ----YEPPppppPPPPp----nuff said---------------------{Gary}

[godrulz]

The doctrine of everlasting punishment is under attack even in Evangelical circles (?John Stott, Anglican scholar, etc.).

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord at death(or separated from him if an unbeliever). Rationalism vs revelation will distort Scripture. One cannot use correct Scriptures about a future bodily resurrection to negate the ones that show man is spirit/soul and does not cease to exist at death (soul-sleep/annihilation= J.W., Seventh Day Adventist, etc.). These concepts are not identical and should not be confused. Perhaps the inherent 'immortality of the soul' has Greek influences, but this is different than God creating and sustaining an everlasting personality (there is continuity).

A parable teaches one main central truth, but the details would be consistent with doctrinal truth or reality. Jesus' view of the afterlife is reflected in the parable. It is not a fanciful, deceptive story but supports a concept of hell (conscious torment).

Remember too that the Jewish understanding of things is not necessarily the full truth since Scripture is a progressive revelation (Pauline, Johannine teaching = university/N.T. develops doctrines that were only hinted at in the O.T. 'kindergarten' as it were).

In light of everlasting life or suffering, there is not injustice if one dies years before another person.

Can I ask your religious or denomination background Zebulon?

[Guest zebulon]

My religious background is entirely non-denominational.

I do believe in everlasting punishment... I don't know where you or the other poster got the impression (unless you just assume a doctrine I don't hold) that I don't believe in it.

I do disagree with your assessment of the cosomology, I think its been terribly polluted, just as it was through Helenism for the jews; you are under Roman influence in interpretation and understanding. Luther did not do a perfect job with the reformation.

Jesus' story of the Rich man and Lazarus was just that... a story, an illustration, to make a point. He used the name Lazarus as an act of prophecy, a man he would soon raise from the dead, proving the Helenized view of life after death to be erroneous. I find it funny sometimes when people say, "Jesus would NEVER say that!" as if Jesus never deliberately tried to confuse people. Most of the Gospels is not written to us, it is a record of judgement against the jews of that generation upon whom Jesus came. Jesus himself said of them, regarding the parables, "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

The absurdity of the elements Jesus gives in the parable alone should be obvious. A drop of water would never satisfy a man in the flames of hell. Abraham's Busom is non-existant in all the Old Testament -- never mentioned. Why? It didn't exist. The Jews had elevated Abraham to the level of God for themselves, and Jesus confronted them with this several times. The is no Abraham's Busom or Hades as he describes, what he describes is straight out of Greek myth -- anyone who has studied Greek myth knows this. the point Jesus is making is RESURRECTION. "Even if one were to return from the dead, they will not believe." And Jesus raised Lazarus -- hence, why he used that name -- from the dead, and they still did not believe! THAT is the point and purpose of the story. And even after his own resurrection from the dead, they did not believe.

As for eternal damnation, I certainly do believe in it. I also believe in a just God "who will render to every man according to his deeds" as scripture plainly states; Scripture says the dead sleep in the dust of the ground and will awaken to either everlasting life or everlasting contempt. I'm not going to dare argue with the Spirit of God who enabled men to write these plain words and ignore them or try to redefine them to fit a man-made cosmology and theology. I just believe what the book says.

Yes, to be absent from this body, for a believer, is to be present with the Lord. Absolutely! There is no time with God, no time in the spirit or in death. If I die today the next moment I will know is being transformed mortal to immortal and caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and those who live to that day will be changed and caught up immediately following so that we all meet the Lord in the air. This is what scripture teaches. It says nothing of dying and going to heaven and nothing of dying and going to hell. Jesus doesn't say to the disciples, "You will die, and come to me, so that where I am you may be also." Rather, he says, "I will come again, and receive you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

[Catsmeow]

The absurdity of the elements Jesus gives in the parable alone should be obvious. A drop of water would never satisfy a man in the flames of hell.

It's not absurd. It's spoken to illustrate this intense yearning and the utter despair this man is now experiencing.

While he was alive, he lived in luxury. While Lazarus was alive, he suffered and the rich man felt no compassion on this poor soul.

When I was in missions in Southeast Asia, I experienced people who were there representing various missions organizations.

Shortly after I arrived, I stood on the street with another missionary and a small, starving little girl came up to us begging for food. I couldn't help it. The tears came rolling down ...real alligator tears.

I told the other missionary, "Quick...get her some money so she can buy food!". Her response, "Oh, don't worry...you'll get used to it."

It was then I realized that if I EVER get used to it, I better get out of missions quick. I've already been in TOO long.

[Catsmeow]

How can anyone live in this world and see human suffering and not be moved to tears and prompted to action? How can anyone with the Holy Spirit not be spurred to do something..anything?

It's kinda off the topic of hell and Satan but point being added here: If we don't want to experience what the rich man in the parable of Lazarus did..we really need to take Jesus serious and be faithful servants.

Lord Jesus has told us all plainly, "When I was hungry, you didn't feed me, when I was naked, you didn't clothe me...."

"Depart from me, you workers of iniquity...I never knew you."

Let me tell you...when we turn a blind eye to the pain and suffering in this world and do nothing to render help, what will He say to us when we stand before Him in judgement?

[Guest zebulon]

Precisely, Jesus taught powerful things through that story...

just don't confuse the Helenized elements he was using to confound the jews who were unfaithful to the truth, with what IS the truth which Jesus is teaching through the parable to "those with ears to hear."

It is granted for you to know. It was not granted for them to know, for they had been judged. The did not "recognize the time of their visitation."

PS: Abraham's Busom, as an idea, is an insult to God. A grave insult, supplanting both Christ and the Father as the comforter of heaven --- with a mere sinful man who had unfortunately been deified by unfaithful jews.

[Catsmeow]

Back to hell:

Job 1:7 (NIV) The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"

Satan answered the Lord, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

1:12"....Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord."

This convinces me that Satan can go almost wherever he so pleases. This verse tells me Satan moves about freely to and fro - from heaven to earth and back again. In the earth and through the earth, (hades) - not the lake of fire and through the atmosphere itself.

[Guest zebulon]

I want to apologize for dragging this thread into the issue of the spiritual cosmology, it's not a salvific issue, it really doesn't matter in the end because one way or another, the righteous will inherit eternal life in bliss and the unrighteous will inherit eternal punishment in sorrow... how it's accomplished and whether there's a "hades" now or whatever just isn't all that important.

Anyway, Im sorry if I offended anyone.

Even though you're all WRONG