My Objections to the faith

[Leonard]

I am sorry that you dont get it. I dont mean to be rude but you seem to love to talk down to people .

I hope you will learn from this. Thats my only purpose i hope.

Well, at this time it seems to me you are incorrect, but I will consider what you have said.

[Itzomi]

Scientific explanation...

Now for the crux of your question iztomi. How can there be light before the sun was created. Well, God himself is light. But I already know that's not what you're looking for. So...

We know that light doesnt necessarily have to come from the Sun or a star. Light itself is a photon. This is produced by energy, is that correct? We know that fundamentally, there would be matter and energy in the beginning of the universe. I believe that the light before the fourth day was energy (but not from a star). I would simply say that this light source was produced from an energy source that was not a ball of burning hydrogen. It was first from God himself...so im just making the connection that God was the energy source. In the New Jeruslem, there will be no Sun. The light source will be God himself. We will also shine and give forth light. There will thus be no more darkness or night.

Back to the question...On the fourth day God created the Sun and stars. This was to seperate day and night which was already established by the first light. From the revolution of the earth around the Sun, the stars would depict to the people what season it was. This was to mark seaons and days and years.

So the general answer is: the Sun did not necessarily have to determine the days and nights...it was established by the first light which does not necessarily have to come from the Sun.

Felix,

Thanks so much for attempting to answer my question. I appreciate the time you took with your detailed answer!

You're right, it still doesn't quite jive with me, but it's probably the best answer I've seen so far, or close. It brings to mind even more questions, though. When God created "light" (as in not coming from the sun), does that mean God was in darkness for all eternity up until the time He created the earth?

I'm just not clear why He needed to rotate day and night for the first 3 days when He could have made the sun & moon first. I mean, we're having morning & night (coming from the sun & reflection from the moon) alternating from the Fourth Day on - was there some sort of different alternating light & dark on days One through Three? And, again, if the light from before Day Four lit the earth, did God turn that off after Day Four? Did it last for only 3 days? If not. why are we not seeing that light (independent of the sun & moon) on the earth today? And if Day Four was when it ceased, why not just create the sun & moon first? Do you get why it's hard for me to understand? I know you guys already want to believe it, so it's not so hard for you to accept, but if you could step back and look at this objectively, without the fear in the back of your mind that you might go to Hell if you didn't believe every word, you'd see that it IS a difficult concept to grasp for the unchurched. (I don't mean to be disrespectful by saying you feel pressured to believe it, therefore that's why you do, but I know that when I was a Christian, I felt there were things I had to believe "or else.")

As for your analogy of God's creation and Christ, that kind of gave me more questions, but since they're not important I don't want to bother with those.

Thanks again for your reply!

Edited November 12, 2005 by Itzomi

[Itzomi]

I don't see a problem here. first He made light. the darkness is called night the light is called day. this is the first day of creation. on the fourth day He created stars, sun, and moon to mark off seasons and days and to shine light onto the world. Is your problem with this that God couldnt have counted a day unless the earth rotated with the sun shining on it?

See my above post but, yeah, are Days One through Three different than Day Four 'til now, is what I'm basically wondering? It's the sun & moon that create 24-hour days on earth, so considering there's really no concept of time in heaven, was God counting 24-hour days before the sun & moon were created? With each verse, regardless of what Day it is, He says, "And the evening and the morning were the Second Day," "Third Day," etc. There's no distinction between any of the days as far as how the light of the morning & night comes, so it's hard to believe that God lit the earth in a different fashion for just half of creation, while still having an alternating morning & evening.

[Itzomi]

The length of the day determines the length of the orbit, not the other way around. That explains the first three days quite nicely, and without contradiction. A day was always "24 hours" even before the sun and moon were made, etc.

Can't say it really explains it for me, but thank you for your response.

I do want to add here that it would be pretty darn difficult to offer an explanation that makes sense to me, but I hope that doesn't discourage people here from trying to satisfy others' questions when they're looking to you for answers. I remember when I was a Christian, there was so much I didn't understand, and I was struggling to hang on to the faith. I wanted to believe SO BAD. One day, I approached someone in church - I don't remember if it was a counselor or what - but I needed someone to talk to about how I can get rid of my nagging doubts. (As a shy person, seeking a stranger out for "help" took a bit of courage.) It didn't take long for her to become frustrated and exclaim [paraphrasing], "Well, just give up and let Satan stomp all over you, then!" If I hadn't started crying then and there, making her feel bad and softening her up, can you imagine how such a response would affect a sincere, yet weak, Christian if that would have been the end of the conversation? That was a shock to me and very hurtful. I needed my "hand held" and I felt like I got a slap.

I hope everyone keeps in mind that you may be the ONLY Christian someone will ever have the guts to approach. Some may be sincere, and some not, but who are you to determine who is who without really knowing that person?

("You" not meaning anyone in particular here, but all Christians.)

Edited November 12, 2005 by Itzomi

[Bread_of_Life]

A day is dictated by rotation, not orbit, and no, it's not always been 24 hours. In fact, it's gradually slowing down (due to tidal forces from the moon) - it used to be shorter.

In the 4.5 billion year history of earth, the orbit has speeded up and gradually slowed down again several times. But, in fantasy 6000 year old land, good sense like the above doesn't matter. Keep up the discussion!

[Fiosh]

The length of the day determines the length of the orbit, not the other way around. That explains the first three days quite nicely, and without contradiction. A day was always "24 hours" even before the sun and moon were made, etc.

Can't say it really explains it for me, but thank you for your response.

I do want to add here that it would be pretty darn difficult to offer an explanation that makes sense to me, but I hope that doesn't discourage people here from trying to satisfy others' questions when they're looking to you for answers. I remember when I was a Christian, there was so much I didn't understand, and I was struggling to hang on to the faith. I wanted to believe SO BAD. One day, I approached someone in church - I don't remember if it was a counselor or what - but I needed someone to talk to about how I can get rid of my nagging doubts. (As a shy person, seeking a stranger out for "help" took a bit of courage.) It didn't take long for her to become frustrated and exclaim [paraphrasing], "Well, just give up and let Satan stomp all over you, then!" If I hadn't started crying then and there, making her feel bad and softening her up, can you imagine how such a response would affect a sincere, yet weak, Christian if that would have been the end of the conversation? That was a shock to me and very hurtful. I needed my "hand held" and I felt like I got a slap.

I hope everyone keeps in mind that you may be the ONLY Christian someone will ever have the guts to approach. Some may be sincere, and some not, but who are you to determine who is who without really knowing that person?

("You" not meaning anyone in particular here, but all Christians.)

Hi Itzomi,

I was reading thru this thread out of curiousity more than anything else and found it to be really interesting. I just wanted to say that you ask good questions. I'm impressed that despite your doubts, you care enough to read the Bible and seek answers. God will bless that---in fact, He already has, by continuing to draw you to His Truth.

Please don't ever let anyone dampen your passion for truth by a sharp response to your questions.

I hope you stick around here for a bit. I think we could all learn from you.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Itzomi]

Hi Itzomi,

I was reading thru this thread out of curiousity more than anything else and found it to be really interesting. I just wanted to say that you ask good questions. I'm impressed that despite your doubts, you care enough to read the Bible and seek answers. God will bless that---in fact, He already has, by continuing to draw you to His Truth.

Please don't ever let anyone dampen your passion for truth by a sharp response to your questions.

I hope you stick around here for a bit. I think we could all learn from you.

Peace,

Fiosh

Thanks so much, Fiosh! Unfortunately, I'm a little too far gone to think I could find Truth from the Bible, but one should never say never. It would be ignorant for me to assume I know what Truth is or isn't. In fact, the more I've learned, the more I realize I don't know. So far, my search has lead me away from the Bible, though.

[SpiritLedEd]

Hi Itzomi,

I was reading thru this thread out of curiousity more than anything else and found it to be really interesting. I just wanted to say that you ask good questions. I'm impressed that despite your doubts, you care enough to read the Bible and seek answers. God will bless that---in fact, He already has, by continuing to draw you to His Truth.

Please don't ever let anyone dampen your passion for truth by a sharp response to your questions.

I hope you stick around here for a bit. I think we could all learn from you.

Peace,

Fiosh

Thanks so much, Fiosh! Unfortunately, I'm a little too far gone to think I could find Truth from the Bible, but one should never say never. It would be ignorant for me to assume I know what Truth is or isn't. In fact, the more I've learned, the more I realize I don't know. So far, my search has lead me away from the Bible, though.

Itzomi.

Aren't you, in effect, saying to God, "Answer my questions and then I'll believe"? You seem to be putting God to the test. Early in His ministry, Jesus had a spiritual wrestling match with Satan (who was also trying to put God on trial), which He (Jesus) won. He rebuked Satan by quoting Deuteronomy 6:16, "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test." It was a rebuke that had great spiritual power and pretty much put Satan on his fanny for a while.

I've found that deciding to believe comes first. Only then does God begin to seriously grow us up in our understanding of Himself and His works. It is by faith that we are saved.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your path straight."

(Prv 3:5-6)

SLE

[Itzomi]

Itzomi.

Aren't you, in effect, saying to God, "Answer my questions and then I'll believe"? You seem to be putting God to the test.

Whether the Bible is true or not is irrelevant as far as the existence of God is concerned. I believe in God regardless. The question is: Is the Bible correct about God? I don't think it is but, unfortunately, now I don't know how to define "God" anymore.

[felix]

I don't see a problem here. first He made light. the darkness is called night the light is called day. this is the first day of creation. on the fourth day He created stars, sun, and moon to mark off seasons and days and to shine light onto the world. Is your problem with this that God couldnt have counted a day unless the earth rotated with the sun shining on it?

See my above post but, yeah, are Days One through Three different than Day Four 'til now, is what I'm basically wondering? It's the sun & moon that create 24-hour days on earth, so considering there's really no concept of time in heaven, was God counting 24-hour days before the sun & moon were created? With each verse, regardless of what Day it is, He says, "And the evening and the morning were the Second Day," "Third Day," etc. There's no distinction between any of the days as far as how the light of the morning & night comes, so it's hard to believe that God lit the earth in a different fashion for just half of creation, while still having an alternating morning & evening.

Itzomi, I have the same response as Caldog, whysoblind and others here. Your question now is why would God light the earth and then to have a morning and evening before the marking function of the sun and moon? I'm not sure. Take a close look at this though...there was evening First and then morning. This is something that should be examined more carefully. Why was God's creation first dark? It is possible that there was another race before Adam. Satan, with His kingdom of darkness was already battling God. The earth void and formless and covered with water represents a judgement. The earth covered with water is a judgement like in Noah's day. Evening means the beginning of darkness and Morning means the beginning of light. You see...light and darkness was named day and night respectively by God. Light must have been God and darkness must have been Satan. Upon seperating them God called one 'day' and the other 'night'.

Prophetically for us the evening and morning is refering to our christian walk; we go up and down. For a young child...their nights seem to be longer than their day. However as we get old...the day seems longer than the night. This is the same for the maturing and growing Christian. They will eventually have less night and more day. Until the time when there will always be day...spiritually and physically (in New Jerusalem). The order in that it is first evening then morning signfies our condition. Before we knew Christ it was always dark (or evening) in us...then after knowing Christ we embraced light (or morning). Morning is when the first rays of light appear. In the beginning of our walk we have some light...but more is to come during the afternoon. When we are in the world we go back into the evening. When we are in God we are in the morning. For young immature Christians, going back into their old life and the world occurs very often...thus their evenings are longer. For older mature Christians, they deny the world and abide in Jesus more often...thus their mornings are longer. Physically this is true for young children and old adults. Younger kids feel that night drags by longer than day. And older adults feel that the day seems longer than night.

The bible, other than being a divine revelation is also scientifically confirmed. Such as entropy (stars and the earth waxing old) and that the earth was a sphere in the time that pple thought it was flat. Many many more...but I dont really think that should be a problem. You should try reading the gospels first and searching there in the new testament. All scripture is God breathed. It is harder to find spiritual revelations in the old testament. Search first in the new testament.

The only place where you dont have faith in the word of God is just chapter 1 in Genesis. I would recommend reading the gospels and the New testament first. I'll tell you now...the old testament times were very different than the new testament times. Chapter 1 of Genesis should not be a hinderance to your reading and believing the bible. I think this question on first chapter of Genesis is sort of being blown out of proportion...this shouldnt be the cause of you losing faith in the reality and truth of the bible.

Edited November 13, 2005 by felix