Does the belief in eternal hell mean that man is an eternal spirit?

[JLW001]

Thanks, Fiosh, thats one of the things Im trying to get at. Jesus says you won't have eternal life unless you are in Him. Therefore, those that are not found in Him will not live eternally. So.....if you arent in Jesus you wont live eternally.

So far, I have come to the conclusion that God will destroy those humans who aren't in Jesus in an everlasting lake of fire. However, they won't have eternal life and therefore can not be tormented forever in hell. However, the fallen angels and the devil were created as spiritual or eternal beings and they will live in punishment forever. What does this say about what the beast and false prophet really are? The bible is very clear and makes certain to say that they will be tormented forever. That epitaph is not included for those humans in the white throne judgement.

The lake of fire will last forever and the devil and his angels will be there forever. However, it appears that those humans condemned to the lake of fire will not live forever. However, their punishment will be everlasting because they will never exist. It will be as if they never existed. Is that perhaps the everlasting punishment?

Is there any way to reconcil what Jesus tells us about eternal life and what men have said of eternal damnation?

Sorry, JLW, I don't agree. There are 2 key words in the passage--eternal & life. That is what is found in Jesus---eternal life.

There is another eternal possibility---eternal damnation.

I don't see evidence that anyone's spirit will cease to exist.

The what happens in the white throne judgement? Is the judgement a one sided judgement where the outcome is all a ruling of eternal damnation in Hell? Are there humans who will pass through the white throne judgement with their names in the book of life? (Note: not the lambs book of life). Who are these men that God makes His home with in the new heaven and new earth?

So are you saying that eternal life is eternal life with God and that the second death is an eternal life without God?

[larryt]

The what happens in the white throne judgement? Is the judgement a one sided judgement where the outcome is all a ruling of eternal damnation in Hell? Are there humans who will pass through the white throne judgement with their names in the book of life? (Note: not the lambs book of life). Who are these men that God makes His home with in the new heaven and new earth?

So are you saying that eternal life is eternal life with God and that the second death is an eternal life without God?

Hi Jamie,

There will be degrees in hell.

Mt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows

[Fiosh]

Thanks, Fiosh, thats one of the things Im trying to get at. Jesus says you won't have eternal life unless you are in Him. Therefore, those that are not found in Him will not live eternally. So.....if you arent in Jesus you wont live eternally.

So far, I have come to the conclusion that God will destroy those humans who aren't in Jesus in an everlasting lake of fire. However, they won't have eternal life and therefore can not be tormented forever in hell. However, the fallen angels and the devil were created as spiritual or eternal beings and they will live in punishment forever. What does this say about what the beast and false prophet really are? The bible is very clear and makes certain to say that they will be tormented forever. That epitaph is not included for those humans in the white throne judgement.

The lake of fire will last forever and the devil and his angels will be there forever. However, it appears that those humans condemned to the lake of fire will not live forever. However, their punishment will be everlasting because they will never exist. It will be as if they never existed. Is that perhaps the everlasting punishment?

Is there any way to reconcil what Jesus tells us about eternal life and what men have said of eternal damnation?

Sorry, JLW, I don't agree. There are 2 key words in the passage--eternal & life. That is what is found in Jesus---eternal life.

There is another eternal possibility---eternal damnation.

I don't see evidence that anyone's spirit will cease to exist.

The what happens in the white throne judgement? Is the judgement a one sided judgement where the outcome is all a ruling of eternal damnation in Hell? Are there humans who will pass through the white throne judgement with their names in the book of life? (Note: not the lambs book of life). Who are these men that God makes His home with in the new heaven and new earth?

So are you saying that eternal life is eternal life with God and that the second death is an eternal life without God?

In the Final Judgment the dead shall be raised and all will come before the throne. Those who lived in Christ will be welcomed to the resurrection of life with God; those who have done evil and rejected Christ to the resuurection of eternal damnation.

see.... John 5: 27-29

"Come, Lord Jesus, come!"

Peace,

Fiosh

[CarolineS]

Only God is immortal. Man is not. Jesus overcame death to give us eternal life. It is a gift for believers only, not everyone.

<Malachi 4:1>

"For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch."

<Malachi 4:3>

"You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this, says the Lord of hosts."

<1 Timothy 6:15-16>

"which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immmortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasing power. Amen."

The wicked will be destroyed. They will cease to exist. They will be stubble, no root or branch will be left. They will be ashes. Sin and evil will exist no more.

Scripture makes it very clear. People need to read their Bible. Follow scripture, not some doctrine all the religious leaders are teaching you. Remember the religious leaders were wrong the first time Jesus came.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[brad_religion]

Hi all, I'm new here, but I wanted to share what I have learned. The first issue would be the translation of key words such as "aion" or "aionios" or "aionion", which is translated as "eternal" or "everlasting". The second issue is the understanding that Revelation is a highly symbolic book not meant to be taken literally (especially in our 21st century gentile literalism). The "Devil" represents something, the "beast" represents something, etc. Think about it for just a moment. If the "lake of fire" is literal, how in the world can death be literally thrown into it? What death is cast into the lake of fire? What does death look like? I'm sure you would admit that such an idea is silly, yet we then assume when it says "whosoever" was not in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire is a literal thing.

The resurrection issue is a multifold one. Let's just put it this way. Paul the apostle declared the resurrection of the just and unjust was the "hope of Israel" (Acts 23:6, 24:14-15, 26:6-8). Paul also said in Romans 9 that he had sorrow in his heart for his kinsmen of the flesh. They were about to be judged by God in Jerusalem and he knew it. He was sorrowful they would suffer many things as vessels of wrath. However, if the resurrection of the unjust was something even WORSE, why would Paul call the resurrection of the unjust the "hope of Israel"? Because it was a hopeful thing. So, in our modern view of the "resurrection of condemnation", we have got it backwards. Paul called it a hope, not a sorrowful thing.

Another issue is that the word "hell" is not found in any scripture in the original language. the "hell" that is thrown into the lake of fire is hades (which is the greek equivalent of the hebrew place sheol). Paul the apostle said death and hell (the grave) are swallowed up in victory (1st Corinthians 15:53-55). So, when Revelation says that they are cast into the lake of fire, it is a victory, not a defeat. If Christ has victory over death and hades, then they are not eternal nor are men condemned to them forever. When it says those who practice the works of the flesh are outside of the city, that is obviously people who are still here who are not yet new creations in Christ. If they continue in those works, they will be hurt of the 2nd death (but it isn't a bad thing). Paul the apostle explained what occurs in 1st Corinthians 3:10-15. He said if any man doesn't build his works on the foundation of Christ (speaking about unbelievers), the man will pass through the fire, and suffer loss because his works (works of the flesh) will burn up, but he himself shall be saved.

The problem is we assume (usually from church tradition) that the "book of life" is the same thing as "salvation". But Revelation borrows the idea of the "book" from the old testament. The book was a record of birth in the nation of Israel. Those who were not in the book were not considered members of Israel (and therefore didn't receive the blessings Israel received). It was a temporal thing, which had to do with this life now, not the afterlife. The "book of life" in Revelation would be identical in regards to the Israel of God (Jesus Christ). Those in Christ are in the book, because they have been "born again" in the new nation, while those who were not yet born again were not in the book. The "elect" in the book of life were similar to Israel in the fact they were chosen to bring the glad tidings to the world of God's reconciliation.

Paul the apostle said to "command and teach" that God is the saviour of all men, especially them who believe. The question we have to ask is, have the elect done what God has commissioned them to do? Or have they tried to be greedy and keep the message to themselves and condemned those outside of Israel (Jesus Christ)? The pharisees did that very thing when it came to the physical nation of Israel and they didn't want to share God with the gentiles. Christians I believe have done this same thing and that is why the world is the way it is.

Well, take it for what you want, but I thought I would share there are other views of these issues that you may not be aware of. I have had experience in the eternal torment camp and the eternal death camp (annihilation) and both really make Christ the ultimate failure who didn't succeed in his mission. Let us get back to the good news God wants us to give others.

God bless, Matt

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem is we assume (usually from church tradition) that the "book of life" is the same thing as "salvation". But Revelation borrows the idea of the "book" from the old testament. The book was a record of birth in the nation of Israel.

Where do you find that in the Scriptures?

If Christ has victory over death and hades, then they are not eternal nor are men condemned to them forever.

So, what happens to the people who are condemned there? What is their ultimate outcome?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Hell is a very definate place that todays Church would rather not talk about. It doesn't fit nicely into the way we have Dressed Jesus up. It does not matter if we paint Him a certain way. His atributes change not. His Righteousness demands Justice.

Religious Brad,

I wanted to adress the errors in just your first paragraph.

The "Devil" represents something

Jas

Edited December 8, 2005 by Dr. Luke

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Second Paragraph;

Paul the apostle declared the resurrection of the just and unjust was the "hope of Israel"

Paul in Acts 23 is using his Pharisaical background to the advantage of the Kingdom of God. To further divide and Preach the Gospel.

The Pharisees hope was not in the Ressurection fo the Just and the Unjust. His hope was in himself and how piously he kept the Law. However they did believe in the Ressurection and the Sadducees did not. The belief in the Ressurection was Israels hope. They believed in the afterlife and that God would raise the Just and the Unjust. The Pharisee believed that the Unjust was punished in the afterlife. The problem was though. That they were never Just by following the Law and their own Righteousness. They misunderstood the Grace of God.

Yet to say that the Pharisee was having Hope in the Ressurection of the Unjust and applying it to Universal Salvation as the Hope of Israel is just bad hermeneutics.

In Romans 9 Paul was not hoping for the Ressurection of the Unjust for his people. He was longing for their Salvation in Jesus Christ.

He evnen stated that he wished if it were possible that he himself be accursed from Christ so that they could be Saved. He had the heart of God with Love towards His people. Paul being accursed would change nothing however. Christ had already been accursed for them and they still did not believe. Paul had nothing to offer, Save the Gospel.

Pauls Hope was not in the Ressurection of the Unjust for them. His Hope was in the Ressurection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He speaks openly of the works of their flesh. How children of God are the children of the Promise. Not by works but by Election. Gods very Mercy. By Faith we are children of Abraham. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Ro

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Brad I want to take a look at your third paragraph and stop there while you consume this;

Another issue is that the word "hell" is not found in any scripture in the original language. the "hell" that is thrown into the lake of fire is hades (which is the greek equivalent of the hebrew place sheol). Paul the apostle said death and hell (the grave) are swallowed up in victory (1st Corinthians 15:53-55). So, when Revelation says that they are cast into the lake of fire, it is a victory, not a defeat. If Christ has victory over death and hades, then they are not eternal nor are men condemned to them forever. When it says those who practice the works of the flesh are outside of the city, that is obviously people who are still here who are not yet new creations in Christ. If they continue in those works, they will be hurt of the 2nd death (but it isn't a bad thing). Paul the apostle explained what occurs in 1st Corinthians 3:10-15. He said if any man doesn't build his works on the foundation of Christ (speaking about unbelievers), the man will pass through the fire, and suffer loss because his works (works of the flesh) will burn up, but he himself shall be saved.

Yes Christ has victory over hell and death. It is a victory in Christ for those who believe by Faith ijn His Word.

Jesus did not come to condemn but to lift the condemnation we are already under in the rebellion against God. See John 3.

In 1st Corinthians Paul is speaking to those already Saved in Christ. He is speaking in Chapter 3 about those in Christ. Already Saved by Faith building up a Doctrine based upon the vain imaginations of their own heart. Not Christ. That this work would be burned up. Anything that is not of Christ will not last.

Heb

[brad_religion]

The problem is we assume (usually from church tradition) that the "book of life" is the same thing as "salvation". But Revelation borrows the idea of the "book" from the old testament. The book was a record of birth in the nation of Israel.

Where do you find that in the Scriptures?

If you read Deuteronomy 29, you will see almost identical language as 1st Corinthians 3:10-15 and Revelation 20-22. It referred to a temporal cursing for people who forsook the Lord. Notice Paul refers to "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;", which is identical to the false gods of Egypt mentioned in Deuteronomy 29. He was making a reference to that scripture to explain those who are outside the kingdom (every man builds their works on the foundation of Christ, but if they aren't in Christ, their works are judged and burned).

If Christ has victory over death and hades, then they are not eternal nor are men condemned to them forever.

So, what happens to the people who are condemned there? What is their ultimate outcome?

The thing is that judgment in the bible is not based upon salvation, it is based upon works. Yet, we are told we are saved by grace, not works. Therefore, when it says in Hebrews 9:27 that after death comes the judgment, it is not saying people are not going to be saved or will be saved. The judgment is based upon the works of each person. If they are outside of Christ (Israel), then their name is not in the book of life (and therefore, like the law of Moses, they must die).

When God judged someone, it had an ultimate work of reconciliation, it didn't happen for no reason. The Lord kills and the Lord makes alive. In other words, whoever was killed by the law would be made alive by Christ. And sure enough, that is what the new testament makes abundantly clear.

The "ultimate outcome" of those not in the book of life is they will be saved (but as Jesus said, those who teach to break the least of the commandments will be least in the kingdom, not eternally lost). The "lake of fire" is better understood as "harbor of purification". The word "fire" in greek is pur, which we get words like purify, purity, purification, perfection, etc. It has an ultimate purpose for good, not evil.

Paul the apostle said in many places not only is God the saviour of all men (1st Timothy 2:3-4, 4:10-11), but purposely blinds people until He decides to reveal the truth to them (Romans 11:7-12, 25-26). 2nd Corinthians 4:4 seems to be speaking about God doing the blinding (the greek word for "god of this world" should say "God of this age"). The problem is we think that while on earth, NOTHING is impossible for God, but 1 second after a person dies, everything is impossible for God. The main reason we think this is because we misinterpret Hebrews 9:27, not realizing it has nothing to do with the "saved" or the "unsaved", but rewards. The judgment seat of Christ is just that very thing. Paul said that Jesus was given a ransom for all, to be testified in DUE TIME. In other words, when God decides to testify to each person the truth of the gospel (which is truly good news), then people will know.

The main problem I think is 3 fold. The first is our 21st century gentile world view of eschatology and salvation. We base our beliefs in scripture on the translation's accuracy. However, many words in English have changed meaning since the KJV was translated in 1611. The second problem is we literalize those English words as we define them today. Thirdly, the KJV translates (or better understood mistranslates) several greek and hebrew texts, which anyone can plainly see if they just do a simple word study of words like "sheol" or "aion" or "mello".

Another issue is based upon eschatology. Prophetic language (which often times was highly cosmic and extreme language used to describe a national judgment). Revelation uses identical language as the old testament prophets. For example, when we see a phrase like "judging the world", we assume it must be at the end of time and everyone in the globe must be judged. Yet, in Isaiah 13, speaking about Babylon's downfall by the Medes (fulfilled according to Daniel 5), it says God would judge the world for its evil (yet it is referring to the fall of Babylon only). If we read that like we read eschatology in many churches today, we would still be waiting for it to be fulfilled (since the world wasn't literally judged in the fall of Babylon). But we should know that scripture defines terms, we do not. If scripture defines such a thing as a national judgment, then it must be applied in other places.

There are just so many things to consider when doing a study on this subject (especially when there are a variety of views regarding eschatology and salvation).

Anyway, I hope I could answer your question. God bless