Deserving Eternal Torture/Torment

[EricH]

To the SDAs: you continue to confuse location with degree. Hitler and the "poor native" (who, BTW, is 'without excuse' according to the Bible) will both go to hell, but Hitler will suffer much greater torment. God is just and will mete out punishment according to deeds.

I wonder what hell would be like for someone like Gandhi... someone who appears to do everything right and does a lot of people a lot of good but happens to be a non-Christian. Might his good deeds "cancel-out" whatever torments hell has in store for non-Christians?

The Bible answers that:

For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Isaiah 64:6 NASB

Even the deeds we do that are good are tainted by sin. Our motives are never 100 percent pure. We never do things 100 percent right.

[Copper Scroll]

The question about 'good deed doers' indicates they still don't understand the difference between degree and location.

Salvation is by faith. Period. No faith, no heaven. Period.

Deeds determine degree of either reward or punishment. Period.

The question was essentially If there are varying degrees of suffering in hell, is it possible that some people in hell (good deed doers who happened to lack the faith required for entry to heaven) barely suffer at all?

[Marnie]

Well, I think the only person truly deserving of eternal torture is my dentist, Dr. Bruni. Oh the pain.

[Pilgrim7]

'Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe.'

Lets see, Jesus paid the price for the sins of the world. What price did He pay. He paid the wages of sin which is death. Jesus died for the sins of the world. The debt is paid in full.

Now if the wages of sin is 'eternal torment', then Jesus did not pay the price, He was not tortured eternally by God for our sins. If He only died for our sins, then we still have to be tortured eternally.

If Jesus suffered eternal torture, then He is still in torment and will be forever.

Question:

If Jesus is still paying the 'eternal torment' for our sins, is He being tormented in heaven or in hell? Do the angels have to watch? How can He be seated at the right hand of God if He is suffering 'eternal torment'.

I'm so glad that Jesus suffered death for every man, which includes me so I can escape the penalty of sin ,which is death in the lake of fire, and receive eternal life.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

2thePoint,

I know about salvation. You entirely missed the point of what I posted. Yes only those who repent of their sins and exercise faith in Jesus are forgiven. The issue is about Jesus having paid the price for sin. If He paid the wages of eternal torment as most on this board assert is the wages of sin, then He must go through eternal torment. This would mean that He is still in torment. Please read the post again and answer the question I posed.

God Bless,

Dennis

[CarolineS]

"The wages of sin is death." What kind of death? Physical. Look at Genesis, where sin entered the world, and death through sin. Man was made mortal because of sin. This is the FIRST death. The SECOND death is eternal separation from God. It is this SECOND death that is caused by lack of faith in Jesus.

Please show scripture that states the second death is eternal separation from God.

My Bible says that the soul that sins shall die, it shall be destroyed, it shall perish.

<Ezekiel 18:20>

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

<Matthew 10:28>

"Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

<John 3:16>

"God...gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I see eternal life as a gift for believers only. The wicked are destroyed. They are not given immortality.

I think part of the problem stems from the doctrine of the immortal soul. There is no such thing. We all die physically. The believers are rasied to eternal life. The wicked to punishment and destruction. I hope this helps you.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[Pilgrim7]

2thePoint,

I don't hold that the wages of sin is eternal torment. I hold with the Scriptures that teach that the 'soul that sins, shall die'. You make my case for me. The 'wages of sin' is/are death. The wicked, those who do not receive Christ will suffer the wages of sin, they will suffer and die and not suffer eternal torment. Thanks for the help.

God bless,

Dennis

[CarolineS]

2thepoint,

Let's look at these verses a little closer:

<Matthew 25:46>

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The punishment will be everlasting. Note the text does not say "everlasting punishing." It is a single punishment whose effect lasts forever.

<Mark 9:48>

"...where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

The fire which cannot be quenched is one which no human hands can put out. It utterly, totally consumes. The fire cannot be quenched or put out until it completes its work of totally eradicating sin from the universe.

Sinners will ultimately be burned up or turned to ashes. See Malachi 4:1-3

The idea of an eternally burning hell would make God a cosmic monster, delighting in destroying His creatures. A loving God must blot sin out of the universe or it will destroy the entire planet. It must be cut out of existence. Do you really think a just and loving God is going to burn people for billions and bilions and billions of years due to one short life of sin? If you believe that, you are not worshipping the same God as me.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[Pilgrim7]

Jesus suffered the full penalty for sin. The only way we can escape the penalty is that Jesus paid it. If He didn't pay it then we still have to. All suffer the first death because of our relation to Adam. We inherited a body subject to physical death. Yet the penalty for sin is the Second death, the death of the spirit. This is where God destroys both the body and soul in the lake of fire. This is part of the wages of sin. If we are not to suffer this, then Jesus must suffer it. If He suffered it then it cannot be eternal torment. Yes the second death, the death of the Spirit is 'eternal separation' from God. There is nothing the wicked would like better is to live forever separated from God. The wicked love being separated from God. Jesus suffered the separation from God. The only reason that He could be resurrected is that He never sinned. He 'became sin' for us, suffered the penalty of sin for us, but never sinned thus He was raised. Sinners are forever dead, separated from God.

God bless,

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

2the Point,

First of all let me say that I appreciate you spirit in our discussion. Each of us is free to share what we believe without condemnation and belittling.

The wicked suffer the second death which is their penalty for sin. It would be our penalty for sin if we didn't receive Christ as our Saviour because He paid that penalty for us. The penalty for sin is what ever punishment that God has determined for sin which is the 2nd death. If the only penalty for sin was the first death, then the wicked would not have to suffer the 2nd death for they have already suffered it. Here are the Scriptures on the 2nd death and my understanding of them:

Only those who overcome will not suffer the 2nd death:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The first Resurrection and the 1000 years:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [i saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (This is the first resurection in which the righteous dead are raised before the living saints meet the lord in the air. They do not suffer the 2nd death)

20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished (they come forth in the 2nd resurection and they are judged and suffer the 2nd death, which is exactly what it says it is, a 2nd death because they have been resurected from their 1st death). This [is] the first resurrection.

20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here we see the 2nd Resurrection and their Judgment:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (grave) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

20:14 And death and hell (grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Here again death means death, it is the 2nd death because the wicked have been resurrected in the 2nd resurrection. Yes this death is an eternal separation from God)

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the same fire as Sodom and Ghomorrah suffered in the book of Jude. That fire destroyed Sodom and Ghomorrah and all the people. They all died. The fire went out. There is no such thing a fire that doesn't go out. It burns until there is no more fuel to burn. The fire destroys the wicked and the earth, and then the earth is made new. This is where God destroys both body and soul as the Scriptures teach.)

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I know this is not what is taught or believed by most, but this is what the Holy Spirit has led me to. There are hundreds of verses in the Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament which state categorically that the 'the soul that sins shall die' and the word allways means death, not some mystical existence in some other state of being in some place that no one can locate. I don't need to convince anyone, that is the Holy Spirit's job, I just need to share.

God bless you,

Dennis