Deserving Eternal Torture/Torment

[CarolineS]

Copper Scroll, Butero and 2 the Point:

Christians especially need to understand the false teachings of "soul sleep" and "annihilation", and that there's no biblical substantiation for its support. Excellent job carrying this on Copper!

Again, it was a joy reading this thread.

You are sadly mistaken, my friend. Our souls are not immortal and people do not burn in hell forever becuase they lived a brief life of sin.

First of all, everyone who sins will undergo the first death. That is, a physical death.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20.

"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." James 1:15

The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

People do not go to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28,29

"David...is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29,34.

"If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12

The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

The wages for sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked "perish," or receive "death." The righteous receive "everlasting life."

"God...gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But that is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16.

The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), " shall perish"

(Psalm 37:38) will "comsume away" (Psalm 37:20, "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3).

God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalm 21:9). The wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.

Jesus died for believers, so we will never have to die. As a believer, we will rest until the Lord comes to call us from the grave and give us the gift of immortality. Our souls will never die. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. This is our blessed hope!

In Christ,

CarolineS

[ayin jade]

ar 9:43 And if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

Mar 9:44 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:45 And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

Mar 9:46 where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

That is a verse that tells me that there is an unpleasant eternity for those who sin. An eternity, not an annihiliation.

[book_wirm]

God is not the Father of us all (relationally speaking). To all of His children He has given eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, but to those not of His family, He has promised the certainty of eternal punishment.

Who is "not of His family"? Non-believers?

That is correct. Only the new birth makes us children of God.

John 1:12

Bus as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

*There is, then, a time when we were not the sons of God.

John 8:44b

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

*Had the pharisees two fathers? God and Satan?

Galatians 4:5

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

*A father has no need to adopt children that are already his.

Hebrews 12:8

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are bastards, and not sons.

In Christ,

Eric

Edited February 12, 2006 by book_wirm

[Copper Scroll]

First of all, everyone who sins will undergo the first death. That is, a physical death.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20.

"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." James 1:15

The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

People do not go to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28,29

"David...is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29,34.

"If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12

The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

The wages for sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked "perish," or receive "death." The righteous receive "everlasting life."

"God...gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But that is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16.

The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), " shall perish"

(Psalm 37:38) will "comsume away" (Psalm 37:20, "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3).

God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalm 21:9). The wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.

Thank you for these scriptures. I would ask your opinion on those scriptures listed in post 9.

[book_wirm]

...we were always bound to sin at some point. And God knew this when he created us. So God created what was bound to displease him, yet we are punished eternally for displeasing him. This is called (God's) justice.

Romans 9:19-24

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

How can two completely different characterizations of justice share the same word? The real question is Why do we call God's justice "justice" at all? "Wrath" seems like a fitting word for eternal tortuous punishment, which seems even too severe for words like "vengeance" and "judgement".

Job 4:17

Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Justice is judgement without partiality. What was it about you that caused God to choose you over another, or what made you a more fitting son than another? Nothing. There was nothing worthy of His salvation in you. Yet He loved you and sent His only begotten son to die for sin in your stead, and called you to the adoption of His sons. God saved you without impratiality because all, including you and I, were unworthy to begin with.

Should God have exhibited the "justice" you seem to hint at He would have left all in their sin and punished all. It is toward the saved that a man may say God dealt "unfairly" because He has provided them an escape from the end which they deserve.

In Christ,

Eric

[Copper Scroll]

I understand why you do not wish to believe God would send someone to burn forever. That is not a pleasant thought, but just because something is not pleasant doesn't mean it is not true.

So right (the reason why I ask for scriptural support in the OP). You are also right in that the thought that anyone should be tortured forever is not a pleasant thought. I feel that if I do get to heaven, the thought of others suffering eternally might prevent me from enjoying the eternal bliss.

God's ways are not as man's ways. They are higher. That is the problem with so many in the church world today. They seek out teachers having itching ears to ease their guilty consciences.

I agree.

There are many teaching that God is love, but refuse to preach the other side of the coin, that he is also a God of judgement.

You're right. The teaching that God is love, I think, misleads a lot of people (if this doctrinal notion of eternal torture is true). Somewhere else on this forum I read that most people who claim to be Christians actually reject a lot of features of most Christian theologies. These casual, "lay" Christians take the notion that God is love and form many assumptions based on it that you and other posters here have invalidated (with scriptural support). Do you think it would be more helpful for churches to stop preaching that God is love and that God is just? (The justice issue appears below.)

While these messages may make us feel better now, they will be worthless in the next life. Ignorance will not save us. To point to a preacher and say it is his fault I failed to live a sanctified lifestyle won't cut it. I can just see myself one day at the judgement of Christ explaining how that Copper Scroll told me that he was a God of love and so my sins shouldn't send me to hell. He will still say depart from me.

According to our concept of justice, I would think that any system set up so that I as an individual could so easily lead others to eternal torture is unjust. But as you indicated, our concept of justice is not necessarily God's. If the doctrine of eternal torment is true, we might as well abandon the teaching that God is just--because it is misleading.

[Copper Scroll]

In connection with the issue of justice raised in the previous post, I don't think the following has been addressed yet:

We are "flesh"--material and finite. As such we are bound to sin. We occupy finite places in an expansive world. Our knowledge is limited. Our motivations are often in conflict. We are motivated by both by a conscience and sensual urges. We are not always conscious of the things we think, say, and do. We are bound to do the wrong thing at some point--either intentionally or unintentionally. We are bound to displease God at some points in our lives. But at the same time God made us. The argument could be made that God made us perfect and that we fell on our own. This has some validity to it, but even if we did start off perfect we were always bound to sin at some point. And God knew this when he created us. So God created what was bound to displease him, yet we are punished eternally for displeasing him.

I'd like to hear (read) opinions on this.

[EricH]

God is not the Father of us all (relationally speaking). To all of His children He has given eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, but to those not of His family, He has promised the certainty of eternal punishment.

Who is "not of His family"? Non-believers? Belief gets you into "His family"?

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

John 1:12 NASB

[SDAinFLA]

Ok let me get this straight.

When Isaiah says "...and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever..." (Isaiah 34:9-10) This is figurative?

But when John says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night..." (Revelation 14:11) This is literal? Give me more detail on that.

Also...if sinners burn throughout eternity...how does this scripture fit into that?

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

[CarolineS]

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment...

Mark 9:43-44

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 16:28

...send him (Lazarus) to my father's house: For I (the rich man) have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Revelation 20:10, 15

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And whomsoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In Christ,

Eric

Hi Copper Scroll,

You asked me to comment on the scripture in post #9. I have quoted them above.

<Matthew 25:46>

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word used in the verse is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

<Mark 9:43-44>

"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'"

Obviously, Jesus does not want us to literally maim ourselves. He is just expressing how offensive our sin is and we should do all we can to remove it or cut it out of our life.

Unquenchable fire is fire that cannot be put out, but which goes out when it has turned everything to ashes. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire, and in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 the Bible says this fire burned the city "to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah" and left it desolate. Yet we know this fire went out, because Jerusalem is not burning today.

<Luke 16:28>

"..for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Ok. You are referring to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I hope you can agree that this is a parable and not to be taken literally. We know it is a parable because of several facts. 1) Abraham's bosom is not heaven. 2) People in hell can't talk to those in heaven. 3) The dead are in their graves. The rich man was in bodily form with eyes, a tongue, etc., yet we know that the body does not go to hell at death. It is very obvious that the body remains in the grave, as the Bible says. 4) Men are rewarded at Christ's second coming, not at death. 5) The lost are punished in hell at the end of the world, not when they die.

The point of the story is found in verse 31. "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

<Revelation 20:10,15>

"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

The term " for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (see also Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.)

So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out.

The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people away from God than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a tender, gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.

In Christ,

CarolineS