SDAinFLA Posted February 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2006 2thepoint, Why do you say that is besides the point? If believing in Eternal Torment forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...determines whether one should want to be Christian or not (as said by yourself) then how can this be besides the point? Our Bibles say: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away..." Revelation 21:1 There's a new earth and new heavens...where are those that are burning forever and ever and ever and ever and ever? I guess we have exhausted this subject... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted February 15, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2006 Grace to you, It is the Loving Kindness of the Lord that leadeth a man to repentance. I would agree with you in principle Smalcald. Yet here, IMO, is why it does indeed matter. I have heard my own family members say, "So whats the big deal? I will simply die and cease to exist. There is no higher plain and nothing more than this." So what has the Lord Lovingly Saved them from? Yes, we must express the Loving Kindness of the Lord. Yet without the other side of Judgment. The escape from condemnation makes no sense. "I will simply cease to exist". Holds no Judgment for sin. Some would even hold the logic that they will be better off just ceasing to exist than Serving God in heaven. They do not understand Liberty nor the whole presence of the Lord. Sad really, but in reality both sides must be present to make the case. Otherwise what condemnation is there? When really they are already under it and without the Grace of God. The very Loving Kindness of the Lord they are condmened to hell. A very serious matter indeed. Since they simply were made to Love God and not spend eternity in hell that is a Judgment for satan and his angels. The fact stands that God thought it pretty important. Important enough to send His Most Precious Son to Save mankind. Yet He didn't offer the same to satan and the fallen angels. Why? Simply because He is Just. They knew. We do not until it is revealed to us. Why escape the Judgment, when there is none? You see what I am saying. They don't need to alter their lives and live Gods way. Simply because there is going to be no punishment for their sin. They can go on living in the manner that they currently are. Since the consequence is not drastic. I would say again thought that God thought it drastic enough to leave heaven and come down here in an extreme act of Agape Love. Taking on our sin and Saving us from an eternity of condemnation in everlasting fire. In a complete revelation of Gods Perfect Will. Blessed be His Holy name. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted February 15, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2006 Nineteenth-century's SDAism & the vagaries of one, Ellen Gould Harmon White, still cannot comprehend that the SAME Greek term for God's duration - ie, everlasting - is the SAME Greek term applied to eternal destinies, whether God's heaven & its bliss or the devil's gehenna and its punishment. If either eternal destiny with its specific characteristics of either joy or pain ceases to exist, so must God. Beware of since-the-the-19th-century SDAism of Ellen Gould Harmon White and her tragicomic nostrums with intent to return us to the Mosaic Code, its Jewish rituals & penalties. Obey much rather the Apostle Paul who warns to "Stand fast in the LIBERTY....." as opposed to SDA-EGHW's cunning invite to RETURN to the Jewish Old Covenant given specifically to the nation of Israel. http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDAinFLA Posted February 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2006 Aurthur...It's great to hear from you. By the way, I lost my dictionary...so I didnt' understand a word you said. Just joking. Thanks for the input. Well, guys...Unless someone can answer my question, using scripture and not a logic....then I'm done. My closing thoughts are this: Whenever we discuss, debate Biblical topics...let us remember that the point is not to win the arguement. We discuss Biblical topics to provoke thought, to direct souls to God's Holy Word, and most of all to direct them to Jesus. I love everyone of you (and yes! Including you Aurthur!) and I pray that differences in Biblical interpretation doesn't hinder the Love that we should show for each other. I'm out! God Bless, SDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScandalousGrace Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 May I suggest a website that gives a good overview of controversial topics, while maintaining a solid evangelical base? Theopedia.com covers many topics such as these from some of today's most outstanding Christian authors, theologians and apologists. links is Theopedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted February 15, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2006 If Ellen Gould harmon White, 19th-century founder of SDA, has (gracefully) left these posts, that's hunky-dory for this observer. Please never let us be taken back to the Jewish Covenant with its Jewish seventh-day Sabbath, its "investigative judgment", it "satan-as-scapegoat" in the Book of Leviticus; its "Jehovah-False-Witness"-type tenet of "annihilationism", its heavy emphasis on vegetarianism as a major centerpiece of EGHW's belief that this is a quite necessary biblical doctrine, her failed prophetic utterances, etc, etc. Why go back to Judaism when we've been wonderfully & completely delivered from such by the all-atoning death of our marvellous Lord & Savior? Farewell, Ellen Gould Harmon White, Farewell indeed! http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDAinFLA Posted February 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2006 Thanks Butero. I am not allowed to comment on the state of the dead here...so please forgive me if I don't address everything you said. I'll just comment on one or two things: WHERE THEIR WORM DIETH NOT, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED Here's a trivia question for you: Do worms live eternally with the sinner? Alot of the times the Bible will say Eternal...forever..etc and from my studies that usually (I haven't read the whole Bible) means that whatever God burns will NEVER come back. For instance: Jude 7 says - "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." The fire was eternal because Sodom doesn't come back. We also read in 2Kings 22:16-17 God says, "Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read. Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched." I could be wrong, but I don't think God's wrath continues forever to stay against that place because He promises us a New Earth. But I believe that his wrath will not ease up until the intended results are achieved. But now let's deal with the other issue that I have been trying to get an answer to: They are going to be kept burning in the lake of fire, located in the heart of the earth. The wicked shall continue buring in this earth would make some sense, but how can they be anywhere? The Bible says "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2Peter 3:13 The wicked, I believe remain wicked...so if they are in the earth...there's dwells righteousness there. If they are somewhere in the heavens, there dwells righteousness also. The only conclusion that I see here is that they don't exist at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDAinFLA Posted February 16, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2006 Let me try to respond to your latest post. First of all, you keep saying you can't speak of the state of the dead here. Why? I think we all know where you believe they are anyway. I assume you believe in soul sleep. I have been vague about this because I don't want it to make it look as if I am complaining. But as you and I both know Eternal Torment links also to the State of the Dead. (Edited by Moderator) Concerning the worms, yes I do believe their worm dieth not. I believe there are literal worms God created to torment the inhabitants of hell. They are actually assigned to individuals, which is why the language is used "their worm" dieth not. I would agree that we have guardian angels, but a worm assigned to each of us? This is the 1st I have heard of this one...let me give this some thought. I tried to follow your train of thought at the end of this post, but it was very difficult. Let me rephrase this. Matthew 5:5 says "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." But it has been said that the wicked are in the earth. This would mean that the meek only inherit part of the earth. Also 2Peter 3:13 says "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." If the wicked are in this earth...how can it be a place wherein dwelleth righteousness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honest Heart Posted February 17, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 20 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1951 Share Posted February 17, 2006 In using the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to try to prove anything about hell and the eventuality of those who go down into death one must remember first of all that it is a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted February 17, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 62 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/23/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/08/1962 Share Posted February 17, 2006 When Jesus spoke of "their worm dying not" He was quoting Isaiah 66:24. The word used for "worm" actually denoted a particular kind of worm, called a scarlet worm. 1) worm, scarlet stuff, crimson a) worm - the female 'coccus ilicis' b) scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet 1) the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis" 2) worm, maggot a) worm, grub b) the worm "coccus ilicis" ++++ When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might "bring many sons unto glory" ("#Heb 2:10")! He died for us, that we might live through him! What is being spoken of here is implicit in the imagery Jesus used. He used something His audience would be particularly conversant with, and they would recognize that He was thus claiming to be the Messiah, One who gives life by giving His life. Clio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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