Copper Scroll Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2006 How is God's foreknowledge about the future reconciled with human freedom of will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 First you need to explain why it is that you percieve foreknowledge to violate human free will. Okay. Let's say that in a given situation, I can take one of three alternatives. If God knows which one I will choose (and that knowledge is perfect), it is not possible for me to choose either of the other two. If it is only possible for me to choose one of the three, the freedom of my choice is illusory. It (and I suppose everything) has already been decided in God's knowledge. Just because you know the outcome ahead of time does not violate the free will of the persons involved. Suppose you are at a pathetically unmatched race. You know there is one world class runner there, and the others are just wanna-bes. you can be fairly certain who is going to win, even with our limited knowledge. The other runners are certain to lose, but it is their free choice to run the race. The fact that you are certain they can't win does not violate their free will. I might know there's a world class runner in there, and I might "know" he will win--but my knowledge is not perfect. I could be wrong. It is possible for anyone to win that race really. The world-class runner could sprain his ankle or something. The point is that if God knows everything about the future, God can't be wrong--so everything has already been determined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypc Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 972 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1964 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Eph 1: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: John 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Romans 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? I say we just rest in the truth that for some reason God chose us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypc Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 972 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1964 Share Posted March 17, 2006 ............and this how we make our calling and election sure. 1 Pet 1:5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Okay. Let's say that in a given situation, I can take one of three alternatives. If God knows which one I will choose (and that knowledge is perfect), it is not possible for me to choose either of the other two. No, it IS possible for you to choose either of the other two, God just happens to know that you'll pick the first one. That's not the same thing as fatalism. I don't see how it isn't. Let me bring more order to this point. Free will says: 1. It is possible for me to choose A and only A. 2. It is possible for me to choose B and only B. 3. It is possible for me to choose C and only C. God's prescience says: 4. God knows that I will choose A and only A. 5. It is not possible for God to be wrong. So: 6. If I choose A, God is right. 7. If I choose B, God is wrong. 8. If I choose C, God is wrong. If 4 and 5 is true, then 2 and 3 are false. Only one choice remains for me--A. Personally, I think 1, 2, and 3 are all true and that 4 is false. <edit> I might know there's a world class runner in there, and I might "know" he will win--but my knowledge is not perfect. I could be wrong. It is possible for anyone to win that race really. The world-class runner could sprain his ankle or something. Ok, its the special olympics and the world class runner could probably win limping even if he sprained his ankle. Ok? I don't mean to nit-pick your example. My point is simply that I could be wrong. Sure, this guy could limp to victory--but what if he chooses not to? What if he feels sympathy for his opponents and throws the race? He has these choices because he is a free human being and no one can know fully and perfectly what he will do. Sometimes in scripture we see God ask man a question. This is not that God is seeking knowledge from man, but rather that God is using a question to point out man's sin. We see this immediately after the fall, "have you eaten of the tree...", and when Cain killed Abel, God asked him where his brother was. This is not a question used by God to gain knowledge, but rather a rhetorical question asked to draw attention to their sin, to make man think about what he has done... This doesn't have to do with what we are discussing. No one is arguing that God does not know everything that can be known--including events that have happened and the present contents of our minds and hearts. The question is whether the future can be known (perfectly and fully) in a world with free agents. I don't see how. The entire book of Revelation is the expression of God's supreme knowledge, love, and righteousness. He knew 1900 years ago the things that would happen during the last 7 years of this age, and the things that woudl happen at the end of the next age(millenial reighn.) He has always known, and yet those things are not caused by God, not all of them anyway, but rather by man's choices. Most everything that happens in Revelations (from what I remember) is caused by God. Revelations (and all prophecy) could be simply statements of God's intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarletprayers Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 135 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,537 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 157 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/29/1956 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Copper Scroll from your description, you don't understand free will. Free will means, you could choose A,B or C...........God knowing beforehand which one you will choose doesn't take away your freewill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 gypc The conclusion you draw from those scriptures is that we are not free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 17, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Copper Scroll from your description, you don't understand free will. Free will means, you could choose A,B or C. Apparently, we have the same understanding. Does not "you could choose A, B, or C" mean the same thing as "it is possible for you to choose A, B, or C"? This is what I wrote: Free will says: 1. It is possible for me to choose A and only A. 2. It is possible for me to choose B and only B. 3. It is possible for me to choose C and only C. Where have I gone wrong? ..........God knowing beforehand which one you will choose doesn't take away your freewill. Please, demonstrate for me how--actually respond to my previous post. Thank you in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 We all make our own choices in life. Just because God knows what we are going to choose doesn't mean He's making those choices for us. We have the freewill to choose A,B,or C. Whether those choices are good or bad, they are our choices. God does not make them for us. If He did, there would have been no need for Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 18, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 Copper Scroll, I have been reading this thread and am not sure where your confusion lies. Let's look at it this way. Let's say we become so advanced, that time travel is possible. I go into the future and find out who will be the next President. I therefore have the knowledge who will win, yet the people of the nation still have a free will of who they will vote for. God does know what the outcome will be, because he can see into the future, yet he does not make us choose to go to the right or the left. The decision is ours. Hi, Butero. First of all, time travel is not and will never be possible. But that's not important... or maybe it is. My confusion lies in the fact that if you know for certain what the outcome of our election will be before we vote, then how we vote has already been determined. We may think that we are freely choosing among the candidates, but this freedom seems to me an illusion--because we must choose the candidate that you know he will choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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