Copper Scroll Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Well. We have freewill. But the fact that God's knowledge is so great. That He knowing us exactly, He knows what we are gonna choose to do. Not saying that we don't have freewill, since th freewill we have, but God just knows what we gonna do, He knows how many hairs we have on our hair, He knows aswell which thoughs we have on our mind. I have no doubt that God knows me far better than I know myself. But what this argument seems to be saying is we all, with our individual and unique personalities, simply react to our surroundings. God knows what we are going to do, because God knows the circumstances and knows how we would (definitely) react to them. I don't doubt that most of us spend most of our time reacting. But to suggest that this is all that we are capable of is to suggest that on a fundamental level we are not really responsible for ourselves. Our environment and circumstances is responsible for our actions. This, to me, causes all sorts of theological and existential problems. (I'm not sure I'm being clear on how. I try.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Is God bound by time? Or is time something that binds only earthly creation? We can only do one thing at a time, live one moment at a time. But God made time. So the idea of the future only exists because time exists. Do you see where I'm going with this? I don't think so, because I think I agree with everything you say above. Do you think future events exist? Do you think that something that doesn't exist can be known? To answer your question... As Whysoblind pointed out... God's foreknowledge does not take away free will. God does not tempt us. I will say again... Blaming God is a colossal cop out. It halts spiritual growth and examination of the human heart. I agree with this last statement. In fact, that is my point. We can't blame God. We are responsible for ourselves. Because we are in control of ourselves, our next move can never be known for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elihu's Girl Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 156 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2006 Is God bound by time? Or is time something that binds only earthly creation? We can only do one thing at a time, live one moment at a time. But God made time. So the idea of the future only exists because time exists. Do you see where I'm going with this? I don't think so, because I think I agree with everything you say above. Do you think future events exist? Do you think that something that doesn't exist can be known? To answer your question... As Whysoblind pointed out... God's foreknowledge does not take away free will. God does not tempt us. I will say again... Blaming God is a colossal cop out. It halts spiritual growth and examination of the human heart. I agree with this last statement. In fact, that is my point. We can't blame God. We are responsible for ourselves. Because we are in control of ourselves, our next move can never be known for certain. So I'm saying that only we, part of visible, earthly creation are bound by the rules of time. God is not. So it is not like God has an unfair advantage or somehow takes away free will by seeing the future... it's possible that there is no other way for God to see us but past, present and future all at once. Like looking down at a map or down at a globe. God is not on the map or on the globe (so to speak). He sees the whole thing at once. Of course the future exists. For us. We are bound by time. Time that is past is the "past", now is the "present" and time to come is the "future." I'm not trying to debate the existance of the future, just to... think a little bit about God's perspective and how it relates to time. Does anybody get what I'm trying to say? I completely do not understand your second statement Copper Scroll. It seems contradictory to me. "Because we are in control of ourselves, our next move can never be known for certain." huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 So I'm saying that only we, part of visible, earthly creation are bound by the rules of time. God is not. So it is not like God has an unfair advantage or somehow takes away free will by seeing the future... it's possible that there is no other way for God to see us but past, present and future all at once. Like looking down at a map or down at a globe. God is not on the map or on the globe (so to speak). He sees the whole thing at once. Of course the future exists. For us. We are bound by time. Time that is past is the "past", now is the "present" and time to come is the "future." I'm not trying to debate the existance of the future, just to... think a little bit about God's perspective and how it relates to time. Does anybody get what I'm trying to say? I think I understand. You see time as a line or path that we are travelling and God (looking down on it) knows all about that path--its beginning and end and every feature in between and every event on it. What I am trying to demonstrate is that this conception of time means that future events have been predetermined. Wherever you and I end up on this path was decided long before you or I were born. So how can you or I be rightfully held responsible for where we end up on a path that was pre-set for us? I am not convinced that this conception of time is real and true. I completely do not understand your second statement Copper Scroll. It seems contradictory to me. "Because we are in control of ourselves, our next move can never be known for certain." huh? God left us in charge of ourselves and in charge of His Creation. In His image, God made us free agents. If I am free and conscious, no matter what my circumstances are, I decide what my actions will be. What my actions will be have not been predetermined, so my next move cannot be known. Among my choices is either to obey or disobey God--either to love or hate my brothers and sisters. We can either let our circumstances determine our actions (like animals do) or we can use our reason and morality to overcome whatever direction our circumstances would push us in. Early on this thread I quoted Genesis 4:7. Cain's circumstances inspired hate for his brother, but God reminded him that even in that he could still overcome that hate: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." Cain could have mastered sin as God said, but did not. If Cain's course had been pre-set, then mastering his sin would not have been possible for him. That he would murder Abel would have been predetermined. Would Cain have truly been to blame in that situation? I posted earlier on this thread: Free will says: 1. It is possible for me to choose A and only A. 2. It is possible for me to choose B and only B. 3. It is possible for me to choose C and only C. God's prescience says: 4. God knows that I will choose A and only A. 5. It is not possible for God to be wrong. So: 6. If I choose A, God is right. 7. If I choose B, God is wrong. 8. If I choose C, God is wrong. If 4 and 5 is true, then 2 and 3 are false. Only one choice remains for me--A. Personally, I think 1, 2, and 3 are all true and that 4 is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Because the future exists now, and because God is not temporal, but IS the end and beginning. God has already seen the future. He knows what is going to happen, and without violating free will. If the future exists now and has been determined before I act in it, how can I be held accountable for my actions in it? They have been predetermined. Remember, God made all things. That means he made every second that ever was, is, or will be. Including my actions in those seconds, minutes, and hours? According to your argument, this must be. If God made every single occurrence and my thoughts and actions occur, then God made those too. If this is true and I do wrong, it is because God made it that way. If this is true and I do right, it is because God made it that way. If this is true and I have faith in Christ, it is because God made it that way. If this is true and I reject God's acts of grace, it is because God made it that way. If this is true and I go to heaven, it is because God made it that way. If this is true and I go to hell, it is because God made it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Free will says: 1. It is possible for me to choose A and only A. 2. It is possible for me to choose B and only B. 3. It is possible for me to choose C and only C. God's prescience says: 4. God knows that I will choose A and only A. 5. It is not possible for God to be wrong. So: 6. If I choose A, God is right. 7. If I choose B, God is wrong. 8. If I choose C, God is wrong. This little diagram is severely flawed, rigged actually. This is what it should look like. Free will says: 1. It is possible for me to choose A and only A. 2. It is possible for me to choose B and only B. 3. It is possible for me to choose C and only C. God's prescience says: 4. God knows that I will choose only one of the above. 5. It is not possible for God to be wrong. So: 6. If I choose A, God knew that already and God is right. 7. If I choose B, God knew that already and God is right. 8. If I choose C, God knew that already and God is right. Let's compare #4's. Mine says that God knows which option I will choose. Yours says that God only knows that I will choose one; it doesn't say that God knows which one I will choose. Which is it? Previously you argued that God knows which one I will choose. Speaking of "rigging", my problem with #4 (my version) is just that. It rigs everything, including my sin or righteousness and my faith or lack thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Look at 6,7, and 8. Let me reword it, though the meaning doesn't change. Free will says: 1. It is possible for me to choose A and only A. 2. It is possible for me to choose B and only B. 3. It is possible for me to choose C and only C. God's prescience says: 4. God knows which of the above I will choose. 5. It is not possible for God to be wrong. So: 6. If I choose A, God knew that already and God is right. 7. If I choose B, God knew that already and God is right. 8. If I choose C, God knew that already and God is right. First, the meaning does change. But this doesn't really matter. Second, if God knows which of the options I will choose, surely this can be stated explicitly. What you seem to have done is made #4 vague enough for it co-exist with #1-3. Third, #6, 7, and 8 can't all be true if #1-3 are true. If I can only choose one, God can't be right about me choosing just any of the three. He can only be right about me choosing one. Either 6 is true and 7 and 8 are false, or 7 is true and 6 and 8 are false, or 8 is true and 6 and 7 are false. What you've done is made God's knowledge contingent upon my choice, which can't be if He knew my choice before I made it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Well, let me do it from scratch, so you can't keep rigging the logic. 1) God knows all things, past, present and future. 2) God can't be wrong. Therefore 3) Regardless of whatever choice is before me, God aleady knows the outcome, and my choice does not influence God's knowledge. And the outcome of your choice cannot be anything but what God already knows it is. So the choice is already made; the matter is already decided. The freedom of your choice is an illusion. I'll repeat my question from some number of posts ago: If the future exists now and has been determined before I act in it, how can I be held accountable for my actions in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 19, 2006 Because the future has not yet been determined, in a temporal sense. God knows what will happen because he is not temporal, and sees all things. But you and I have not yet made the decisions. The future is not yet determined, but God already knows the future. I'm not sure if I can make this any simpler: If the future exists now (as you say) and are known now (by God), then it is determined--whether "within" time or "outside of it". What you seem to be saying is that since we are bound by time, the future is undetermined in our minds--meaning that we cannot perceive the future, though God can. This describes an illusion. I can't see future events from my perspective, but God can. So I make choices not knowing that the choices have already been made. If the choices were already made before I made them, then I didn't really make them. How can we be held accountable for them? So if God knows the choices that we will make, making choices is an illusion. All we really do is react to situations and those situations determine our choices. Those situations were determined by previous situations and will determine future situations. All of this becomes a big chain of causation that begins and ends with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypc Posted March 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 972 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1964 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Copper did you read Romans 9 yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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