God's foreknowledge and human freedom

[Copper Scroll]

Copper did you read Romans 9 yet?

I did. Thank you.

There's a lot in there. As it relates to this thread though--Do you believe Paul is saying that we are saved because God picked us to be saved and others are condemned because God picked them to be condemned?

[Copper Scroll]

I'm not sure if I can make this any simpler: If the future exists now (as you say) and are known now (by God), then it is determined--whether "within" time or "outside of it".

What you seem to be saying is that since we are bound by time, the future is undetermined in our minds--meaning that we cannot perceive the future, though God can. This describes an illusion. I can't see future events from my perspective, but God can. So I make choices not knowing that the choices have already been made. If the choices were already made before I made them, then I didn't really make them. How can we be held accountable for them?

I thought we already covered this ground from the passage from James. God doesn't tempt or cause anyone to sin. Stop blaming God for your sin.

You may have me confused. What I tried to show was that your argument renders free will an illusion. If free will is an illusion and we really don't choose our thoughts and actions, we should not be held accountable for them.

My position is that free will is real, so I have no place to blame God for anything.

God did not tempt Adam and Eve to fall. God did not temp Satan to fall. Satan rebelled. God made all things "Good". The scripture is plain as day that God saw everything that he had made and it was very good(sixth day). This refutes the gap theory, because the gap theory claims lucifer fell in the dateless past and that God destroyed his first creation. Genesis says that everythign was "very good" as of the 6th day. God made all things "good", and he did not make anything inherently evil.

Hence Satan CHOSE to become evil, and Adam and Eve CHOSE to become evil, and contrary to their created natures at that. God did not cause them to become evil, because he created them good, and commanded them to "be good" through obedience, that is by not eating of tree which he commanded them not to eat from. Hence, Lucifer fell after the 6th day, but before Adam and Eve.

On this, I think, that we are in complete agreement. (I am not sure about your point about Satan's fall, but this has nothing to do with this discussion.)

The question is how this is reconciled with God's prescience.

[Copper Scroll]

I no longer converse with copper or blind, but I'll say this to you.

I wonder why.

Romans 9 is about Israel and the Gentiles, not about individual free will. It's about God's right to let the gentiles in on his plan of salvation, not about forcing this or that individual to be saved or not. It's about fitting for service, not determining eternal destinations. Similar rebuttals can be made for all the other TULIP proof texts. Pharoah's will was bent, not formed; it changed intensity, not direction. People are "given over" to their sin after they have continually pursued it, and God simply stops restraining them or showing them mercy. He has the right to say where the lines are drawn, but he never decides which person goes to heaven or not.

This makes sense. Thanks.

Foreknowledge is not determination; saying otherwise is logically fallacious. Otherwise God is then the author of sin, which is heresy. He who controlls is responsible, so if God controls eternal destiy of individuals then he is to blame for their sin. Happily, and Biblically, man is held responsible for his own sin; therefore he has some control. Many TULIP supporters' attempts to say God's control of our nature is not a violation of free will is doublespeak of Orwellian proportions. The Bible says I am responsible for choosing life or death; therefore I have a free will.

I agree with everything in this paragraph too--except, of course, the first sentence, which speaks to foreknowledge. Nothing else in the paragraph speaks to foreknowledge; it only speaks to free will--which I would never dispute. This thread however asks how the two--foreknowledge and free will--are reconciled. If you are willing to converse with me, I would appreciate an explanation.

[Elihu's Girl]

I think I understand. You see time as a line or path that we are travelling and God (looking down on it) knows all about that path--its beginning and end and every feature in between and every event on it. What I am trying to demonstrate is that this conception of time means that future events have been predetermined. Wherever you and I end up on this path was decided long before you or I were born. So how can you or I be rightfully held responsible for where we end up on a path that was pre-set for us?

I am not convinced that this conception of time is real and true.

I completely do not understand your second statement Copper Scroll. It seems contradictory to me. "Because we are in control of ourselves, our next move can never be known for certain." huh?

God left us in charge of ourselves and in charge of His Creation. In His image, God made us free agents. If I am free and conscious, no matter what my circumstances are, I decide what my actions will be. What my actions will be have not been predetermined, so my next move cannot be known.

Among my choices is either to obey or disobey God--either to love or hate my brothers and sisters. We can either let our circumstances determine our actions (like animals do) or we can use our reason and morality to overcome whatever direction our circumstances would push us in. Early on this thread I quoted Genesis 4:7. Cain's circumstances inspired hate for his brother, but God reminded him that even in that he could still overcome that hate: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." Cain could have mastered sin as God said, but did not.

If Cain's course had been pre-set, then mastering his sin would not have been possible for him. That he would murder Abel would have been predetermined. Would Cain have truly been to blame in that situation?

I posted earlier on this thread:

Free will says:

1. It is possible for me to choose A and only A.

2. It is possible for me to choose B and only B.

3. It is possible for me to choose C and only C.

God's prescience says:

4. God knows that I will choose A and only A.

5. It is not possible for God to be wrong.

So:

6. If I choose A, God is right.

7. If I choose B, God is wrong.

8. If I choose C, God is wrong.

If 4 and 5 is true, then 2 and 3 are false. Only one choice remains for me--A.

Personally, I think 1, 2, and 3 are all true and that 4 is false.

The concept of time does not mean that future events are predetermined. You are mistaken.

Though you are not convinced that the concept of time is real and true, time is real and true and we are bound by it.

You are confusing omniscence with predetermination.

Everything you said in regard to Cain and choice is true. However as stated above, you are confusing omniscience with predetermination.

You love your diagram with the letters!

Because of free will I have several choices, A thru Z and maybe more, maybe less. In the moment before I make a choice there are infintite possiblilities. Once I choose I have chosen... There is only one outcome.

Say I choose C. Before I chose C there were several possibilities A thru Z. After I choose C, there is only one outcome. I chose C.

God sees me before the choice was presented to me when I wasn't even thinking about it... God sees me while I'm puzzling which choice to make, while I still have several possibilities and God sees me after I have made my choice and am stuck with my one outcome. My one choice. I would argue that since God created time and therefore is not bound by time, he sees all of these at the same "time." So at any given "time," God knows what the outcome would be because he sees it all at once, not because God has orchestrated it or taken away your choices or predetermined your course of action or written a script for you or anything...

You are very intelligent, and your arguments are well thought out. There is a difference between omniscience and predestination. One is passive and one is active. God is omniscient. It's part of his nature just like we are bipedal. It's not something God does. It is not an interference.

It is not at all strange to me that you aren't getting this. Every being you have ever known has had limited knowlege and been bound by time. So it makes sense that it woud be difficult to comprehend a being that is not bound by time and knows everything. So we try to make God more human. "Oh God doesn't know EVERYTHING. God knows one possiblity but somethimes God's wrong when I make a certain choice." Or. "That's not fair that God KNEW I would make the wrong choice. It's God's fault. Since God KNEW all along I just didn't have a choice. God KNEW and he can't be wrong... So there's no way I could've chosen differently." Actually in the moment before you made your choice you could have chosen differently and then the moment after you would have been seen by God having a different outcome. So turning it around backwards in order to blame God doesn't make the argument true. We are responsible for our choices. The fact that God is omniscient has nothing to do with it.

If your goal is to find the truth, I would prayerfully research the differences between predetermination/predestination and omniscience and what the bible says about them.

A Link

WhySoBlind makes good points...

I'm not sure if I can make this any simpler: If the future exists now (as you say) and are known now (by God), then it is determined--whether "within" time or "outside of it".

What you seem to be saying is that since we are bound by time, the future is undetermined in our minds--meaning that we cannot perceive the future, though God can. This describes an illusion. I can't see future events from my perspective, but God can. So I make choices not knowing that the choices have already been made. If the choices were already made before I made them, then I didn't really make them. How can we be held accountable for them?

I thought we already covered this ground from the passage from James. God doesn't tempt or cause anyone to sin. Stop blaming God for your sin.

So if God knows the choices that we will make, making choices is an illusion. All we really do is react to situations and those situations determine our choices. Those situations were determined by previous situations and will determine future situations. All of this becomes a big chain of causation that begins and ends with God.

God did not tempt Adam and Eve to fall. God did not temp Satan to fall. Satan rebelled. God made all things "Good". The scripture is plain as day that God saw everything that he had made and it was very good(sixth day). This refutes the gap theory, because the gap theory claims lucifer fell in the dateless past and that God destroyed his first creation. Genesis says that everythign was "very good" as of the 6th day. God made all things "good", and he did not make anything inherently evil.

Hence Satan CHOSE to become evil, and Adam and Eve CHOSE to become evil, and contrary to their created natures at that. God did not cause them to become evil, because he created them good, and commanded them to "be good" through obedience, that is by not eating of tree which he commanded them not to eat from. Hence, Lucifer fell after the 6th day, but before Adam and Eve.

But all was a free choice, contrary to the nature God gave them.

Also... You are only seeing one part of the picture, but think of all the beautiful choices people made throughout bible history, and today. I just read a story about this couple that opened their home over the years to over 80 foster children. It was just a beautiful story! Yes humans are sinful and evil, but as you say, with the influence of love and godly morals, and the transforming power of the gospel message and the Holy Spirit, humans are capable of so much love and goodness! God saw that too. God saw sin, but God saw the cure to sin and the fruit it would bear!

Edited March 20, 2006 by Elihu's Girl

[Copper Scroll]

The best people to explain it are the Calvinists, and they claim all non-Calvinists misrepresent their views. So this is my understanding of the issue.

No Calvinist I've ever met believes in what they call "libertarian free will" (yet their attempts to define how the 'libertarian' variety differs is never clear or simple). But whatever it is, they believe it is intrinsic to foreknowledge. They argue that God's omniscience is only possible if he decrees every little detail of history from beginning to end and thus conrols everything and everyone. This alleged "divine decree" was issued before God ever created anything, such that he had to decide that Satan would fall, that Adam would sin, that Jesus would be the sacrifice, and that only those he specifically chose for heaven would ever get there. The rest, whether the Calvinist believes in double predestination or not, are therefore condemned to hell simply and purely based on that decree, not on anything the individuals did or chose.

The twist comes in the Calvinists' attempt to reconcile free with with their view of predestination. They say that people are free to choose within the limits of their nature; this I agree with. But then they add an idea I believe is Gnostically inspired: that man's nature is so corrupt that he is absolutely dead, such that he cannot choose good at all, and especially cannot choose to accept the gospel. This inability to choose salvation but to only "choose" evil they call free will. Yet this is impossible; there is no choice without options. If the Bible says "choose life", "save yourselves from this corrupt generation", and "whosoever will may come", the Calvinist argues that God does give commands that people can't possibly obey, using the failure to keep the law as their proof. Yet they miss the difference: that the law was never held up as a means of salvation, but as Paul explained, a means to show us what sinners we are. Salvation is in the Sacrifice.

I agree with your assessment of Calvinism and tulip.

The other plank in the free will/predestination argument is that if man could exercise faith for salvation, it would make it salvation by works. But this isn't true. The Bible continually contrasts faith and works as mutually exclusive opposites. This is the Bible's definition, while man's definition says anything we do, even belief, is a work. I'll take the Bible's definition.

Well, what would be the Bible's definition of faith? Is faith not something that we choose?

There are several arguments dealing with how God can foreknow without for-ordination, one of the more prominent being "middle knowledge", but that's too deep to get into here. But it's much simpler just to take God at his Word: he clearly knows "the end from the beginning, from ancient times what is still to come", and he clearly offers salvation to those who choose to believe. These are two truths in the Bible, and I accept them both. Whether man has a good theory of how this is possible must take a back seat to what the Bible so plainly states.

Now, I have a problem with this. You may need to get into "middle knowledge" (which I've never heard of--may look up on my own) to satisfy me here. I can't ignore the following logic, even if I wanted to:

Free will says:

1. It is possible for me to choose A and only A.

2. It is possible for me to choose B and only B.

3. It is possible for me to choose C and only C.

God's prescience says:

4. God knows that I will choose A and only A.

5. It is not possible for God to be wrong.

So:

6. If I choose A, God is right.

7. If I choose B, God is wrong.

8. If I choose C, God is wrong.

If 4 and 5 is true, then 2 and 3 are false. Only one choice remains for me--A.

Personally, I think 1, 2, and 3 are all true and that 4 is false.

Also, omniscience means nothing if God can only have it because he forces everything to happen a certain way.

If God created the universe (set it in motion) and knows everything that will ever happen in it, then God did force it. I believe God put free agents in His creation and, for this reason, cannot know everything that will happen in it--this would be unknowable. Omniscience in this situation is knowing everything that is knowable (as omnipotence would meaning able to do anything that is doable).

[Copper Scroll]

The concept of time does not mean that future events are predetermined. You are mistaken.

Though you are not convinced that the concept of time is real and true, time is real and true and we are bound by it.

You are confusing omniscence with predetermination.

Everything you said in regard to Cain and choice is true. However as stated above, you are confusing omniscience with predetermination.

You love your diagram with the letters!

Because of free will I have several choices, A thru Z and maybe more, maybe less. In the moment before I make a choice there are infintite possiblilities. Once I choose I have chosen... There is only one outcome.

Say I choose C. Before I chose C there were several possibilities A thru Z. After I choose C, there is only one outcome. I chose C.

God sees me before the choice was presented to me when I wasn't even thinking about it... God sees me while I'm puzzling which choice to make, while I still have several possibilities and God sees me after I have made my choice and am stuck with my one outcome. My one choice. I would argue that since God created time and therefore is not bound by time, he sees all of these at the same "time." So at any given "time," God knows what the outcome would be because he sees it all at once, not because God has orchestrated it or taken away your choices or predetermined your course of action or written a script for you or anything...

If God made you, knowing what situations you would face, the dilemmas they would present you, exactly how you would assess your situation, and the ultimate choice you would make--If God knew everything that you would do when He made you, how is making you different from designing you to do what you do?

You are very intelligent, and your arguments are well thought out. There is a difference between omniscience and predestination. One is passive and one is active. God is omniscient. It's part of his nature just like we are bipedal. It's not something God does. It is not an interference.

I'm not saying that God's foreknowledge (of all things) and predetermination are the same thing. I'm saying that the former leads logically and necessarily to the latter. If God created the world knowing everything that would happen in it, either accidentally or on purpose, God determined everything that happens and will happen in the world. Where have I gone wrong?

It is not at all strange to me that you aren't getting this. Every being you have ever known has had limited knowlege and been bound by time. So it makes sense that it woud be difficult to comprehend a being that is not bound by time and knows everything. So we try to make God more human. "Oh God doesn't know EVERYTHING. God knows one possiblity but somethimes God's wrong when I make a certain choice."

You might be right, but I don't think so. I'm not saying that God doesn't know everything. I'm saying that the future actions of a free agent, logically, cannot be known. I asked earlier, can God take an object and turn the whole thing left and right at the same time? Can God let sin into heaven? By answering these questions No, are we trying to put limitations on God's power? I don't think so. Some things logically cannot be.

If your goal is to find the truth, I would prayerfully research the differences between predetermination/predestination and omniscience and what the bible says about them.

At Butero's advice, I have started to read the Bible again from the beginning. (I did this once before.) I'm still quite early off in this, but I will look up relevant passages. Thank you. And I'll check out your link, when I get a chance.

Also... You are only seeing one part of the picture, but think of all the beautiful choices people made throughout bible history, and today. I just read a story about this couple that opened their home over the years to over 80 foster children. It was just a beautiful story! Yes humans are sinful and evil, but as you say, with the influence of love and godly morals, and the transforming power of the gospel message and the Holy Spirit, humans are capable of so much love and goodness! God saw that too. God saw sin, but God saw the cure to sin and the fruit it would bear!

Thanks, we always need reminders of the great and honorable things that we are capable of.

[Copper Scroll]

Well, what would be the Bible's definition of faith? Is faith not something that we choose?

Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

Romans 4:5 says "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Romans 9:32 says "Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone.""

Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

[Elihu's Girl]

I can't ignore the following logic, even if I wanted to:

Free will says:

1. It is possible for me to choose A and only A.

2. It is possible for me to choose B and only B.

3. It is possible for me to choose C and only C.

God's prescience says:

4. God knows that I will choose A and only A.

5. It is not possible for God to be wrong.

So:

6. If I choose A, God is right.

7. If I choose B, God is wrong.

8. If I choose C, God is wrong.

If 4 and 5 is true, then 2 and 3 are false. Only one choice remains for me--A.

Personally, I think 1, 2, and 3 are all true and that 4 is false.

This is just not logical. Logically statement A is a violation of free will. Free will prohibits the use of the word "only" in statements 1, 2, and 3. If you can only choose A as stated in statement 1, then you don't have free will. The logical statement would be...

Let me put it the way I see it:

1. Free will gives me a choice between A, B, and C

2. I can and must only choose one of the three

3. God knows which one I will choose but does not force me to do it; he 'sees' me choosing it

4. It is not possible for God to be wrong, because he already saw what I will do

The story ends right there. God saw it and it happened, without my being forced to choose a particular one. But in your syllogism you seem to think God could possibly be mistaken if I'm truly allowed choice (after all, it really isn't choice if it's forced). Choice/free will is impossible unless there is no forcing of will and there are at least two options. Since the Bible commands me to choose, I therefore must have the freedom to do so..

Originally Posted by Copper Scroll

Also, omniscience means nothing if God can only have it because he forces everything to happen a certain way.

If God created the universe (set it in motion) and knows everything that will ever happen in it, then God did force it. I believe God put free agents in His creation and, for this reason, cannot know everything that will happen in it--this would be unknowable. Omniscience in this situation is knowing everything that is knowable (as omnipotence would meaning able to do anything that is doable).

Omniscience does not equal forcing behavior. The assertion that God has omniscience through force is one you've made, or perhaps one the Gnostic Gospels made. The assertion that Omniscience is a result of Force is not in the bible. If the Omniscience of God without force is incomprehensible to you, that does not make it untrue. Three persons in one being is incomprehensible to me but I believe it. God never said He would be easy to understand. I'd even say it makes sense that we can't completely understand God. We have a very limited perspective. I'm sure the angels don't even fully understand God and they have a much better vantage point.

Copper Scroll: If God created the universe (set it in motion) and knows everything that will ever happen in it, then God did force it.

Disagree. If I set a pre-programmed robot in motion then it will be forced to do what I programmed it to do. But if I set a puppy in motion I can limit its freedom without forcing it to do certain things within those limitations. Suppose I put the puppy in a fenced area with a ball and a stick. I placed the puppy and toys in the fenced area; I set the scene in motion. But I do not force the puppy to choose either the ball or the stick. He may play with one, both, or neither. I let him choose. But God knows what the puppy will do, still without forcing it, only seeing it in advance.

I believe God put free agents in His creation and, for this reason, cannot know everything that will happen in it--this would be unknowable. Omniscience in this situation is knowing everything that is knowable (as omnipotence would meaning able to do anything that is doable).

Disagree that God cannot know everything that will happen. We simply cannot dogmatically state such a thing about God. How could we possibly know what God knows? Who can say what is included in the set of all that is knowable, when we're talking about God?

Anyway, I'm saying that God does not have to force everything/everyone in order to predict the future, and that omniscience is meaningless if God can only know what he has predestined.

If God made you, knowing what situations you would face, the dilemmas they would present you, exactly how you would assess your situation, and the ultimate choice you would make--If God knew everything that you would do when He made you, how is making you different from designing you to do what you do?

Because Creation and Omniscience are two separate things. Again you are confining God to the rules of time and space that humans have to follow. This is understandable but erroneous.

God creates me. He does not create me saying, hmm I'm going to create Brittny. She will have brown eyes, black hair and choose A, B, C and D.

God creates me. He says she will have brown hair and brown eyes. But because God is not confined to time and space as we are, even as he is creating me he sees me playing barbies with my sister at age 5, going to college at age 17, he sees the things I haven't done yet like (hopefully) my wedding day, my grandchildren and my day of death. This is not because he created these moments, it is because God is Omniscient and Omnipresent and is not confined to seeing things one at a time moment by moment. This is not something that can be understood on human terms. This is not something we can do or even understand. Who else do we know that is omnipresent, omniscient? Writers. But human writers don't really create beings with free will. Ultimately the characters they create are fictional and everything about them and everything they do is created by the writer. We don't understand the creation of free will creatures. There is nothing in the universe to compare it with. We don't understand the creation of something with a will of its own free to make choices of its own. We are these kinds of beings but we don't understand creating them. Then, completely separate, we don't understand Omniscience and Omnipresence. Seeing all and being everywhere. How would you even be. Every aspect of our lives is colored by being confined to time and space. Every choice we make we can't really be 100% sure what will happen. We may flatter ourselves that we are, but we are not. So if I with my human brain try and figure out what it would be like to know all and see all... in my mind it would result in paralysis. To know all and be everywhere? But what does my pondering have to do with the reality? Just because I can't comprehend it, doesn't make it false. God is not subject to the confines of the human mind.

I'm not saying that God's foreknowledge (of all things) and predetermination are the same thing. I'm saying that the former leads logically and necessarily to the latter. If God created the world knowing everything that would happen in it, either accidentally or on purpose, God determined everything that happens and will happen in the world. Where have I gone wrong?

foreknowledge does not lead to predestination.

Originally posted by Copper Scroll:

I'm not saying that God doesn't know everything. I'm saying that the future actions of a free agent, logically, cannot be known. I asked earlier, can God take an object and turn the whole thing left and right at the same time? Can God let sin into heaven? By answering these questions No, are we trying to put limitations on God's power? I don't think so. Some things logically cannot be.

God is not confined to the limits of human logic.

Edited March 20, 2006 by Elihu's Girl

[Copper Scroll]

Starting a game and deciding the rules and boundaries does not necessitate the micromanagement of every move.

It does if while starting the game and deciding the rules and boundaries, one also knows what each move will be, their timing, and their sequence.

Not quite. Those four statements have logical consequences for our freedom:

5. It is not possible for me to choose contrary to what God knows I will choose.

6. It is only possible for me to choose according to what God knows I will choose.

7. Only one option is possible, therefore my "choice" is not free.

Disagree. Choosing according to God's knowledge is entirely different from choosing according to God's decree. You seem to be confusing the number of choices with the number of outcomes. Choices are possibilities, while outcomes are accomplished facts. We do in fact have the choice between heaven and hell, but the outcome depends upon which we choose. It does not depend upon a decree of God.

I didn't say anything about a decree.

You say choices are possibilities, but your own and my logic lead to the conclusion that only one of A, B, or C is possible. We only choose the one that is possible. If God already knows that I will choose hell and you will choose heaven, then heaven is not possible for me and hell is not possible for you. Why? Because God cannot be wrong.

I drew the analogy for exactly that purpose. I'm showing the difference between us and God, but the similarity is in the fact that we understand freedom within limits. God gives us limited freedom, but within those limits, he does not micromanage us to the point we have no free will.

I agree with that. What I'm trying to show you is that God's knowledge about the future logically necessitates limitations on the future. If God knows everything about the future down the the last detail, then the last detail about the future has been determined before it happens. If God created the world and has micro-knowledge about its future, then God has micro-managed the future--because every minute truth about the future is set and cannot be anything but what God knows it to be. Personally, I don't believe (at this point) that God has that sort of micro-knowledge about the future.

But while you think it's logically impossible for God to foreknow what he doesn't fore-ordain, I think the opposite. God's foreknowledge is no better than ours if he only knows what he forced to happen.

How is starting a game knowing exactly how it will be played different from designing exactly how it will be played? How is making a puppy, making its options, and knowing which it will choose different from pre-programming the puppy to make a certain choice among its options? How is making a world with knowledge of every little thing that will happen in it different from making every little thing happen in it?

[CellShade]

I agree with 2point completly, God knows what we will do, is He forcing us?No.

God CAN DO ALL THINGS, what isn't "do able" for Mankind is so easy to God.

I also liked your Chess theory 2point.

People for once and for all, we got to understand that the rules applied to us by God does not apply to Him, we have the rule to be created, be giveng birth to by our mother, and then eventually dying, but guess what, God doesn't apply to this rule, He is the Alpha and the Omega, He controls times, He is time and love and everything good that the world lives in, He controls time, He knows what we gonna do since He controls time, He also knows our mind, knows our whatever decision we will make in our lifes, is He forcing us?Nope.

Copper I couldn't disagree more in your points of view since you are actually contracting what God put in The Bible many times!