eric Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted April 19, 2006 The jails and cemetaries are loaded with all kinds of criminals who have led a life of crime and been gunned down in the midst of their activities, and I don't doubt some were baptised as infants by doting parents, so their baptism didn't help them much, and I agree with those who say that there is no biblical proof of infant baptism and I dont give a rip what Luther says about it When Jesus was born, He was taken to the temple when He was 8 days old for purification with His mother and was circumcised, but He was not baptised until He started His ministry when J the B baptised Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2006 horizoneast says: "You may have the authority of the magisterium and the early fathers for your doctrine but you do not have the authority of God. Your authority is built on a straw foundation; I choose the rock solid foundation of God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2006 eric says: The jails and cemetaries are loaded with all kinds of criminals who have led a life of crime and been gunned down in the midst of their activities, and I don't doubt some were baptised as infants by doting parents, so their baptism didn't help them much ... . sw says: And they are just as full of criminals who were baptized after they walked down the aisle following an altar call so what's your point? Faith is a gift and the Bible clearly teaches we have the ability to reject that gift, whether it was supplied in baptism or otherwise. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted April 19, 2006 Where is the scriptural support for NOT baptizing children? We know that infants and children can and do have faith. It comes down to a conception of what Baptism is. Is it something that God does for us, or is it a ceremony that we do for God? Does it confer the Holy Spirit, or is it some sort of work which proves our faith to God? Does anything special happens in baptism, or is it simply a ceremony with no real power? It comes down to a conception of the grace of God. Only faith saves us, we all have the ability to deny our baptism, but that does not make baptism false, anymore than it makes communion false when someone takes it in an unworthy manner, or someone without faith takes communion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 19, 2006 horizoneast says: I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted April 19, 2006 Are children human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh No Melon Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 45 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/14/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/20/1988 Share Posted April 19, 2006 Speaking as a long-time believer, I am open to any doctrine or tradition as long as it's rooted in holy Scripture. So far I haven't heard ANY verses that indicates infants (i.e. those too young to come to the Lord of their own free will) should experience baptism. I'd like to study up on Luther (or any other theologian for that matter) if indeed he provides biblical support for his views, however I'd prefer to read it free of charge. If I remember correctly, the baptism of the jailor's "household" was given as support for this practice. I'm sorry, but I can't accept this as biblical evidence: too much speculation. You assume the jailor had children, then you assume at least one of his children must have been an "infant." I also believe it's unfair for some people to compare the Bible not directly addressing infant baptism to not directly addressing topics like abortion. Baptism is biblically mandated by God; it's not a political issue. Look, I'm open-minded about this kind of thing. But I haven't heard one bit of scriptural support for infant baptism. I don't believe it's "bad" thing necessarily, but I'd like to hear something -- anything -- from the Bible that backs it. All I've read up to this point is fruitless bickering (on both sides of the debate). Could somebody please list a few verses that actually address the baptism of infants? No wild speculation, no eisegesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted April 19, 2006 What I would like to know is.....Who instituted infant baptism and for what purpose? And please dont quote me Luther or any other of your pet writers, because they are not infallible. Answer me from the bible only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Putnam Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1929 Share Posted April 19, 2006 What I would like to know is.....Who instituted infant baptism and for what purpose? And please dont quote me Luther or any other of your pet writers, because they are not infallible. Answer me from the bible only. John 3:5: 5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 1 Peter 3:21 ...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted April 19, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted April 19, 2006 SW answered. And they are just as full of criminals who were baptized after they walked down the aisle following an altar call so what's your point? Faith is a gift and the Bible clearly teaches we have the ability to reject that gift, whether it was supplied in baptism or otherwise. My point was given in your post. You are right, adults have the ability to reject or accept both salvation and baptism, but a child hasn't. A child has no idea of who or what he/she is getting baprised into and for what reason and if you say it is a command, then show me where it is commanded outside of being an expression of proof of salvation that can only be given after repentance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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