Guest jckduboise Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I'm studying Jesus' Olivet Discourse and trying to keep it in context. I have noticed in this study that Jesus never mentions a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Of course, He is speaking to a Jewish audience and He comments on how the tribulation will affect the Jewish remnant at the time of culmination of world events. It occured to me this week that people often use Matthew 24:40-41 to describe the disappearance of gentile Christians during the pre-trib rapture. But Jesus doesn't mention that event, He is referring to the second coming which is judgment and removal of workers of evilness. The one that is taken is removed for that purpose and the one that remains is the elect that will reign with Him for a thousand years. This is the reverse of the way it is commonly handled in a smorgasbord of pulled Scripture to illustrate the suddenness of the rapture. Great verse but not in the right context. If anyone disagrees with me, I would like to hear from you. Help me see it different if I am wrong. That is right David, Rev 6 describes the rapture of the church. The 7th chapter describes the 144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel and the in the 14 chapter describes the events of the 144,000 redemption..I only wish that others would see that Revelations IS written in chronological order and that the Church will experience the rapture..Israel will be redeemed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2006 David, I agree. This is not a 'rapture passage' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 9, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I don't see anything in Revelation 6 about a rapture of any sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I don't see anything in Revelation 6 about a rapture of any sort. Oops, my mistake, it happens... first the 144,000 sealed ...7:9 after this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one culd count from every nation, trib, people and language, standing before the throne and in from of the Lamb. and 8:3 Another angel, who has a golden senser, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints on the golden alter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 David, I agree. This is not a 'rapture passage' No, Matthew 24:40-41 is not a rapture passage it is a second coming passage. I was responding to the entire post..not just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 9, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 9, 2006 At the risk of overstatement...I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church...The 144,000 are the Jewish remnant but they will also do a supernatural job of evangelizing and will have gentile converts...what I am suggesting is at the 2nd Coming of the reigning King Jesus this verse refers to the removal of Satan, demons, and the evil followers who will all be pretty debased at this point. Their removal will leave the saints here and the dead and Christ and the raptured church who return with Christ at His 2nd Advent in one place for the 1,000 year reign. I hope I have been specific enough that everyone understands what I am suggesting these verses mean. As an argument for this, I am saying that if these two verses refer to a prior rapture and those removed were saints, Jesus broke his comments about the tribulation and inserted these sentences of commentary totally out of sequence with what He was explaining. David, if that is your argument, it is not a very good one. Let's take a look at the verses that come first as well as the ones in question. Matt 24:36-42 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking, and marrying, and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the Ark, 39 And knew not until the Flood came, and took them all away: so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Jesus didn't break sequence as you are saying. He had begun in verse 32 with the parable of the fig tree. This came after he completed speaking on the second coming and events that led up to it. This is a new warning to those living in the days preceding the rapture. There are too many things that don't fit concerning the second coming as I said in a previous post. Look at how things are described. It says they were like in the days of Noe, people were eating, drinking and giving in marriage and then the flood came and carried them away. In other words, people were going on with their lives as normal. Before the second coming, the people will have come through a time of great tribulation, worse than anything the world has ever known. Any Christians that remain that have refused the mark of the beast will not be taken by surprise about the Lord's return. On the other hand, the rapture will take many by surprise. The rapture of the church has to be discovered outside of the Olivet Discourse. Jesus discusses a tribulation where the Jews become targets of hate and mistreatment. He then plainly denotes a mid-point event labeled by Daniel as the Abomination of Desolation in which the Temple becomes a symbol of mockery and power inhabited by the Anti-christ. The 144.000 go into hiding and God protects them while the false rulers gloat in their apparent anihilation of the Israel. And Jesus says just like the days of Noah, where it looked like evil had completely triumphed and being righteous looked completely foolish to the world. Society will completely settle into a state of abnormal that it now will call normal. Then the coming of the Lord, referred throughout numerous OT passages as the "Day of the Lord" will occur preceded immediately by cosmic signs seen by all the world...involving the sun, moon, water, earthquakes and the appearing of the Lord at the Mount of Olives. His purpose to apprehend Satan, his angels, and the evil ones and then an angel will canvas the area to pull together the righteous remnant and unite them with the angels and the dead in Christ that He brings with Him. The more I study this the more convinced and the more cohesive it becomes instead of a bunch of scattered comments in a puzzle like presentation as so many see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 10, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 10, 2006 I don't see anything in Revelation 6 about a rapture of any sort. Oops, my mistake, it happens... first the 144,000 sealed ...7:9 after this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one culd count from every nation, trib, people and language, standing before the throne and in from of the Lamb. and 8:3 Another angel, who has a golden senser, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints on the golden alter. No problem. But could you elaborate how you see that having anything to do with being caught up in the air to meet Christ or to be raptured? It simply speaks of the people in heaven from what I can tell. It could fit just as coherently into a post tribulation one-time return of Christ. I guess my problem with this whole discussion is that I think Christ give a very complete and coherent description of the End Times in His discourse. This discourse is further followed up with a very direct discourse in II Peter once again about the End Times, both of these would support a one time return of Christ and then the end and Judgement. It seems as if we are trying to backfill the End Times Prophesy by Christ, with our own interpretations, when the description itself is very clear, it is only unclear if we try to force a rapture then tribulation then return of Christ into the scenario. I guess I always feel we should simply let the text speak, and take the direct meaning first, then look for context and supporting passages if the text itself is unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germanJoy Posted May 10, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 97 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 10, 2006 (edited) Okay, I can see your logic Germanjoy, thanks for your response. Although I am having a hard time seeing that any believers with true faith at the time of the rapture, would not be part of rapture if one were to occur. I don't see any scripture that would support a dividing of believers at the time of the rapture. It would seem to me that the rapture again is something Christ does for us, not that we would do for Christ, meaning that we don't decide to join Christ in the air if we already have true faith in Christ we are simply taken, poof, the decision was made by Christ not us, even if we were wrong about when the rapture and His return was to take place. Now I think a case can be made in Revelation that some non-believers will become believers during the tribulation. To me it seems as if you are making faith in this one theological event, the rapture, equal to faith in Christ. Peace. I understand your concerns Smalcald but you need to consider the Parable of the Ten Virgins. Were they all believers? Yes! for they were all virgins. Are all 10 saved? No, only those whose lamps did not run out of oil were saved. Had it something to do with the will and/or their deeds why the lazy virgins were left out? Absolutely! You see, this kind of discussion leads to "Predestination against Free-Will". I personally believe in both, for both are scriptural. It may sound silly but both theories are supported by Scriptures. The reason why I think that there will be "believers" left during the reign of the beast, the head of the antichrist is because of Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. verse 5 the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. The "rapture event" takes out both the living and the dead believers AT THE SAME TIME with their glorified bodies. These raptured believers obviously do not have to come to life again since they are already with the Lord forever with their resurrected/glorified bodies. However, the "first resurrection" calls some specified believers to life to reign with Christ for 1000 years with their glorified bodies while the other dead believers remained in their grave (the rest of the dead did not come to life). They were not raised up altogether unlike during the "rapture". This is the part in the scriptures that makes me believe that there are "separate dealings" of believers. Another proof where two diff. "sets" of believers are in: 1. Rev. 7:14-17 believers who came out of the tribulation. 2. Rev. 15:2-4 believers who came off victorious from the beast and from his image. I base all my "theories" on what I read in the bible especially Revelations. My thoughts about it could be erroneous and I would appreciate it if I am corrected. Be blessed. germanJoy Edited May 10, 2006 by germanJoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 10, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Thanks german joy. I don't doubt that you base your beliefs on the bible, becuase of that we can have this discussion from a common starting ground. I will think about your comments and respond, they are interesting. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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