Loss of Privacy for sake of security?

[Marnie]

Get up and smell the coffee, buck the system. Your screen name suggests your outlook on life.

Whoa, baby! You're hot tonight.

There is not one person on this board more converned with privacy than I. I dont use a phone, so they can't tap it. But, the reality is, privacy is an illusion in the 21st century. I guarantee, Buck and Eric, there is some 12 year old down the street than can find out our credit score if he wanted to. The technology to build massive data bases has been around for a couple of decades. The technology to listen in your phone calls has likewise been around for a long time. But two things: the government is one massive beurocracy...it takes an act of G-d to get anything done. Really, there are too many buffoons and career politicians competing for votes, money, prestege and power to worry about. And, secondly, there isn't the manpower to listen into every citizens 500 free minutes! I mean, just think about it for a minute. Just in the average 8th grade class...how many cell phones there are...how many useless text messages and gossip sessions going on.

To me, this whole NSA story is so overblown, it's a distraction from more pressing issues.

[eric]

You are absolutely right Marnie. With the technology they have today some one could phone you and tell you what tv channel you are watching. Nothing like a few red herrings to take your mind off what is really going on. The 2nd psalm says it all for me.

[buckthesystem]

Buck, It's not the govts that are creating a climate of fear, it's the conspiracy theorists and that's one of the reasons that conspiracy is not welcome on this board. Any true bible believing, spirit filled regenerated christian should have nothing to fear, because nothing or no one is going to change the out come and I'm not naive not to know that theses measures will not be imposed on us willy nilly. I am not suggesting that all phone lines will be tapped, I give a little bit of gumtion to the authorities to know what they are doing.

Get up and smell the coffee, buck the system. Your screen name suggests your outlook on life.

Eric, My opinion entirely: For a climate of fear to exist to the extent that people are even contemplating "giving up liberty for the sake of 'security'" is something that "conspiracy theorists" could not bring about. It is politicians who get up and make panicky speeches all the time about "terrorists everywhere".

And "authorities with gumption" - you've got to be kidding. In my experience "authorities" (I assume you mean government bureaucrats and employees in general) are incompetent, lazy, stupid and corrupt - they most certainly don't have "gumption" or "know what they are doing".

And "Buckthesystem" - yeah, good isn't it? That sure does reflect my outlook on life (I haven't always had this outlook though, just in the last 10 years or so since I noticed what is going on).

[eric]

And so say 2.5 billion people all over the globe. So what do you want an autocracy. Or are you to lay awake each night worrying what big grother is going to impose on you next. I've been hearing it all now for twenty years, but I have faith in God, because His bible has warned us of such happenings. Every govt in the world is corrupt, a ten year old can tell you that, but we the people vote for them so we deserve what we get.

I am more concerned about the events around Israel and Jerusalem, because I believe that is where the biggy will start and end. God will not go back on His promises to save those who endure to the end.

Stop worrying Buck and enjoy your life in the Lord.

eric

[JustinM]

I am going to list all the rights we have lost in the last 10 or more years.

The right to life (Abortion 1/3 of our generation [last 30 years] has been murdered)

The right to bear arms (it started in San Francisco)

The right to property (Supreme Court imminant domain ruling)

The right to speak (when was the last time a conservative politician was allowed to speak at a liberal organization without being heckled, disrespected and assaulted)? Political Correctness too.

The right to worship as you please (Well, as long as you are not a Christian you still have that right)

If there is anything I have left out, please correct me. Everyone of these rights were restricted (in some way) or completely dissolved by socialist democrats. That is 7 rights that they are responsible for taking away. Now these same demoncrats want to criticize the President for the wire-tap policy(of which he acted under the authority given him by the US Constitution, which was amended and voted on by the House and Senate.) Any liberal that wants to criticize the president for this needs to answer this question. . .

If you are so concerned about our rights, why are you fighting to take away our freedom of speech, religion, life, and our right to bear arms? Of all the rights you have some participation in being removed, why is the right to privacy your biggest concern? Do you have something to hide?

As far as conspiracies of the government destroying the WTC and part of the Pentagon, what planet are you on? You think this is one vast conspiracy so the government can snoop in your dirty laundry? Let me guess, the 911 hijackers were secret CIA prisoners that were brainwashed to pilot aircraft and crash them into our buildings, so the government could justify a war with Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran etc. If you include the over 3000 Americans dead and the 2000-3000 dead soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan, that seems like a very large price to pay for oil and complete government control. This whole process has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. Why pay that much to wiretap phones. All the republican government had to do was sit around and wait for the liberals to overturn just laws and insert unconstitutional ones. You know exactly what I am talking about. Just look at what these liberals, that are so concerned about our rights, have done. Wise up, people. The biggest threat to our country is not terrorists, it's our own people. The ACLU, the environmentalists, the animal rights activists, the atheists, the polytheists, the polygamists, the sexually depraved, etc. and anything that goes against our rights and our christianity is a major issue. I say ignore the politics, the world is only going to get worse, we need to find those diamonds in the ruff and put the light of God on them, so they can shine, they are there, we need to find them and bring them to God. The rest will work out the way God intends, we know that in the end, we win.

[buckthesystem]

Justin, what about the right to privacy? That has been lost in so many ways it is not even funny.

Then look up the Patriot Act and see what that takes away. There is nothing positive in it at all, it is absolutely horrible, and sure not very patriotic.

The Patriot Act is the final death knell to the American constitution.

[dakota190]

it is a basic premis of law and law enforcement. to have more security, we will have less privacy, more privacy, less security. we can't have it all ways. personally i am not threatened by the things cnn blows all out of proportion and repeats it over and over and then brings in their talking heads to drone on and on about it until they have people either hiding under their beds or on the roof with a rifle. yes security is important in the post 911 society, if the government wants to listen in on my phone conversations or follow me around, they really have too much time on their hands. 10-15 years ago, it may have made sense, but since Christ, got in my way on my way down, there isn't much point in it.

[buckthesystem]

it is a basic premis of law and law enforcement. to have more security, we will have less privacy, more privacy, less security. we can't have it all ways. personally i am not threatened by the things cnn blows all out of proportion and repeats it over and over and then brings in their talking heads to drone on and on about it until they have people either hiding under their beds or on the roof with a rifle. yes security is important in the post 911 society, if the government wants to listen in on my phone conversations or follow me around, they really have too much time on their hands. 10-15 years ago, it may have made sense, but since Christ, got in my way on my way down, there isn't much point in it.

I am sorry, but I just don't get it. When you say "it is a basic premise of law enforcement, to have more security we will have less privacy, more privacy, less security. How? And Why do you think that more privacy equates to less security? Or that losing privacy for everybody will enhance their security?

This is a totally new concept - the one of denigrating privacy and the strange idea that privacy is something that must be given up for reasons of "security". Yet nobody has come up with how this is, or why this is!

And: "Security is important in the post 9.11 society". It is sad to see how easily people have bought into the idea that "there was 9.11 and now the rules have changed". This is simply not the case.

America has always had one of the fairest legal systems in the world and it would be a pity to see that destroyed. Their legal system always seems to have been based on limited government power as people have feared that government will take advantage of power given to it, so the government's ability to collect information about its citizens has been restrained and people accept the price. What has changed recently?

If those limitations interfere with law enforcement that is the price we must pay for privacy. EG evidence is suppressed in cases where the police search a "suspect's" home without a warrant even if the evidence proves helpful to the police case. Why? Because it was collected illegally and immorally. Now what is the difference between that and eavesdropping on all citizens' telephone calls, emails and other communications?

[buckthesystem]

I am going to list all the rights we have lost in the last 10 or more years.

The right to life (Abortion 1/3 of our generation [last 30 years] has been murdered)

The right to bear arms (it started in San Francisco)

The right to property (Supreme Court imminant domain ruling)

The right to speak (when was the last time a conservative politician was allowed to speak at a liberal organization without being heckled, disrespected and assaulted)? Political Correctness too.

The right to worship as you please (Well, as long as you are not a Christian you still have that right)

If there is anything I have left out, please correct me. Everyone of these rights were restricted (in some way) or completely dissolved by socialist democrats. That is 7 rights that they are responsible for taking away. Now these same demoncrats want to criticize the President for the wire-tap policy(of which he acted under the authority given him by the US Constitution, which was amended and voted on by the House and Senate.) Any liberal that wants to criticize the president for this needs to answer this question. . .

If you are so concerned about our rights, why are you fighting to take away our freedom of speech, religion, life, and our right to bear arms? Of all the rights you have some participation in being removed, why is the right to privacy your biggest concern? Do you have something to hide?

As far as conspiracies of the government destroying the WTC and part of the Pentagon, what planet are you on? You think this is one vast conspiracy so the government can snoop in your dirty laundry? Let me guess, the 911 hijackers were secret CIA prisoners that were brainwashed to pilot aircraft and crash them into our buildings, so the government could justify a war with Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran etc. If you include the over 3000 Americans dead and the 2000-3000 dead soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan, that seems like a very large price to pay for oil and complete government control. This whole process has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. Why pay that much to wiretap phones. All the republican government had to do was sit around and wait for the liberals to overturn just laws and insert unconstitutional ones. You know exactly what I am talking about. Just look at what these liberals, that are so concerned about our rights, have done. Wise up, people. The biggest threat to our country is not terrorists, it's our own people. The ACLU, the environmentalists, the animal rights activists, the atheists, the polytheists, the polygamists, the sexually depraved, etc. and anything that goes against our rights and our christianity is a major issue. I say ignore the politics, the world is only going to get worse, we need to find those diamonds in the ruff and put the light of God on them, so they can shine, they are there, we need to find them and bring them to God. The rest will work out the way God intends, we know that in the end, we win.

Well, I was hesitant to get all "conspiracy theoryish" but then this is "controversial issues", so: You seem to be blaming "liberals" for a lot of the ideas that you don't agree with, so first let me say that I consider myself to be rather conservative in politics and I don't consider being concerned about the truth, human dignity and civil rights to be a liberal trait alone.

I will admit that as an outsider I am not terribly well versed in American politics but I do think it odd that while I admire greatly a lot of GW Bush's characteristics, he seems to have abused "executive powers" far more than any other president ever.

Do you really think that anyone concerned with the right to privacy "has something to hide"? Gee, well I know that I definitely have something to hide. It is called "my own business" or "my private life" and what I say or who I talk to is none of the government's business. If they want to know, they can ask me and if I want to tell them, I will - but if I don't want to, then surely that is my right?

As for "the government destroying the WTC and part of the Pentagon" and " Let me guess, the 911 hijackers were secret CIA prisoners that were brainwashed to pilot aircraft and crash them into our buildings" (I don't think the reason has anything to do with the war with Iraq, but more to do with "an excuse to denigrate human rights throughout the world). No, (this is my personal opinion entirely and I will not repeat myself all the time and will drop it after this) but I think this was "allowed to happen" and as it is not even logical that an aircraft flying into the top of a building would turn the entire building to dust and destroy everything without trace, it was a "controlled explosion". You don't really think that your government is above this, do you?

Governments do not care at all about how many lives are sacrificed or what price "other people" pay in $s or human suffering.

We really need God in these times more than ever and I'm sure God would warn us against complacency.

[Trinity]

Geez, this monitoring our phone records deal is starting to get on my nerves, they do not have people on a third line listening to all of our conversations... This would take 1 person out of 3 people in America listening to our every phone call. No! They do not do that...

They have word sensors, example:

If you made a call to some-one and you used the words "going to blow up tunnel."Then that person calls some-one else and uses a similar sentence, and that person makes a phone call to another country like Iraq for example, then the Machine will alert the Homeland security and they will track the calls and get the men... They do not read your conversation unless three or four weird conversations take place that link each other in a almost like relay of messages...

Geez, this isn't invading privacy...No one is listening on the other end you know how much man power that would take...

Sorry, don't mean to offend anyone but the Democrats are making up stories to get themselves elected, and people are just dumb enough to believe it...

First off, and again I am not setting out to offend anyone, I have not swallowed any Democrat stories but just read the neutral news items that are available on the subject.

It would seem that the thing is that the US government wants the ability to "wire tap" all telephone calls without the benefit of a warrant or court order. Doesn't that make you even a little bit suspicious?

As for "key words", do you feel happy about trusting government employees to monitor your private conversations and react to words that they deem to be "worthy of a red flag"? What if they get it totally wrong, misread words and end up by interrogating you as a "terrorist"?

Also we have to have tremendous trust here, when we realise that the definition of "terrorist" relies entirely on the whim of a bureaucrat.

Though more importantly, if for years and years to "wire tap 'phone calls" a judge was required to sign off a warrant, what is so special about today that you feel it is OK to totally give up your right to private communication for?

First of all, Ill answer this:

As for "key words", do you feel happy about trusting government employees to monitor your private conversations and react to words that they deem to be "worthy of a red flag"?

Ok, I've said this, and ill say it again!

No one, and I mean NO ONE is listening for key words, a computer does, NO ONE in Washington can tell you what your conversation is, i mean AOL has more information about your conversations then the government. The computer doesn't keep record of your calls unless the call sends red flags, and it would take a whole big chain of advents for it to ever send a red flag.

I mean, Unless your talking to your friends about blowing up the capital on the phone, then your friend on the other side of the phone calls someone who calls someone in Pakistan to set up the arrangements to blow up the capital its not going to send a red flag till something like that...