red77 Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 28 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 6, 2006 As my belief is not regarded as scripturally sound I would like people to explain why these verses do not support the theory of salvation for all, I'm open to points and theories as long as they remain relevant to the topic and dont deviate into 'hell' stuff, thats already covered on other threads, I hope to be enlightened and it should at least clarify one or two things the bible teaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 115 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 8,281 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/03/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/30/1955 Share Posted June 6, 2006 A very good question. I'm sure you know the standard "answers"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red77 Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 28 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 A very good question. I'm sure you know the standard "answers"! hmmmm, I've heard a couple of answers for a couple of verses but by no means all........! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Salvation is available to all of mankind, because the blood of Christ has been shed for the sins of all mankind. All sin was taken upon the shoulders of the Lord Jesus in the last three hours of His death upon the cross. However...simply because the blood of Christ cleanses from sin, and because the sins of the world were forgiven through His death, does not mean that all men are saved. Cast a life preserver to a man drowning in the ocean and the method of his salvation is freely available. But he is not saved until he grabs that life preserver. Until he receives the free gift of salvation he is still adrift in the ocean. That's the most simple and concise way that I can put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red77 Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 28 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 Salvation is available to all of mankind, because the blood of Christ has been shed for the sins of all mankind. All sin was taken upon the shoulders of the Lord Jesus in the last three hours of His death upon the cross. However...simply because the blood of Christ cleanses from sin, and because the sins of the world were forgiven through His death, does not mean that all men are saved. Cast a life preserver to a man drowning in the ocean and the method of his salvation is freely available. But he is not saved until he grabs that life preserver. Until he receives the free gift of salvation he is still adrift in the ocean. That's the most simple and concise way that I can put it. well no offence here but you havent addressed any of the verses that seem to refute your claims, how do you explain away so many verses that indicate that all men will be reconciled? To be honest I'd sooner if other people are just going to say similar things without addressing the verses that they dont reply to the thread.......it would be pointless, the whole point of posting this thread was to get some understanding of why I seemingly misinterpret these verses to mean the salvation of all men..........and why........if there's another apparent meaning then it should be easy enough to explain in clear and concise terms............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted June 6, 2006 well no offence here but you havent addressed any of the verses that seem to refute your claims, how do you explain away so many verses that indicate that all men will be reconciled? To be honest I'd sooner if other people are just going to say similar things without addressing the verses that they dont reply to the thread.......it would be pointless, the whole point of posting this thread was to get some understanding of why I seemingly misinterpret these verses to mean the salvation of all men..........and why........if there's another apparent meaning then it should be easy enough to explain in clear and concise terms............. Well frankly I think it's disingenuous for anyone to ask for understanding about something unless he has a mind and heart open to the possibility that his own doctrine, or his own adopted doctrine could be wrong. I have engaged in many of these debates in the past, and when someone says, "Here. Here are some verses. Prove to me that I'm wrong." oftentimes it's the case that the person does not have a heart that is open to correction, but is rather posturing in order to exalt his own opinion. Really, it becomes a waste of time and effort to try to correct that person, since he is not open to such correction. If such is your case, then what would be the point of engaging in a debate? It would be a waste of my time and yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red77 Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 28 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 well no offence here but you havent addressed any of the verses that seem to refute your claims, how do you explain away so many verses that indicate that all men will be reconciled? To be honest I'd sooner if other people are just going to say similar things without addressing the verses that they dont reply to the thread.......it would be pointless, the whole point of posting this thread was to get some understanding of why I seemingly misinterpret these verses to mean the salvation of all men..........and why........if there's another apparent meaning then it should be easy enough to explain in clear and concise terms............. Well frankly I think it's disingenuous for anyone to ask for understanding about something unless he has a mind and heart open to the possibility that his own doctrine, or his own adopted doctrine could be wrong. I have engaged in many of these debates in the past, and when someone says, "Here. Here are some verses. Prove to me that I'm wrong." oftentimes it's the case that the person does not have a heart that is open to correction, but is rather posturing in order to exalt his own opinion. Really, it becomes a waste of time and effort to try to correct that person, since he is not open to such correction. If such is your case, then what would be the point of engaging in a debate? It would be a waste of my time and yours. To be honest IMO it should always be a case of presuming that the questioner is genuine in his asking until proved otherwise, I make no bones about my belief but thats to be expected, likewise you do the same.....but if there's genuinedebate about these issues then its all good, thats why I ask.......I object only because none of the verses were addressed which iswhat i askd in my original post, it is pointless in this question to avoid them because they're at the heart of the question and therefore integral to a response, I'm not going to pretend that i'm going to change my beliefs without hard evidence to the contrary, I hold them to be true but as someone who values truth I'm also open to the possibility of my being wrong..........Are you also open to the possibility that my OP has a point? If not then please correct and refute and explain why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anika Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 62 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/04/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 6, 2006 The verses in Eph and Colossians you included in your list, which are the two I am addressing because they do sound inclusive of all of humanity, are actually speaking about the will of God. It is His will that all will come to Him, but sadly not all will. The reason there is so much significance in what Paul was saying is because at one time, it was thought that salvation was only for the Jews. Paul was pointing out that it is God's will that salvation be for all people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red77 Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 28 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 The verses in Eph and Colossians you included in your list, which are the two I am addressing because they do sound inclusive of all of humanity, are actually speaking about the will of God. It is His will that all will come to Him, but sadly not all will. The reason there is so much significance in what Paul was saying is because at one time, it was thought that salvation was only for the Jews. Paul was pointing out that it is God's will that salvation be for all people. Well i think that all the verses indicate inclusiveness of all humanity to be honest......but to answer the points about the two verses you've addressed - if its God's will that all men be saved then who could thwart it......the Col verse doesnt indicate that its God's whim but rather a plan that isnt going to stopped by the wills of men, it says to reconcile all things unto himself be it in heaven or on earth likewise in the Eph verse it indicates that this would occur within the fullness of time too, I appreciate what you mean regarding the salvation of the jews and the misnoma about that but it doesnt really explain why these verses dont say the salvation of purely believers.....or at least descriptions to that effect, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red77 Posted June 6, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 28 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/29/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 Great stuff Red77. I think others would say "Amen" here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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