The Bible and Slavery

[sylvan3]

Sylvan; your questions have been answered, and in ways that any intelligent person can see that what we think of as 'slavery' is NOT 'endorsed' by the Bible, yet you are still pretending to 'not get it.'

To me this shows that that these questions you have raised are not the real issue. The real issue is that you have internalized anger against this 'god' created by your own imagination, and you have conflated him with the one true God. The 'god' you hate endorses what you think of as 'slavery'; the God of the Bible does not.

Be intellectually honest. From a logical perspective, you can surely clearly see the difference between the 'slavery' codified in the Law of Moses, and the very corrupt institution of Roman slavery, can you not?

As far as arguing for it today, I have no moral problem with a contract of indenturement, although I believe they were outlawed in the U.S. Further, you must consider that many of the moral laws of the Old Testament were MAJOR STEPS FORWARD for their day, but may seem antiquated to us. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, lash for lash, stripe for stripe, burning for burning, and a life for a life" may sound barbaric to us (not to me; it simply sounds 'fair'), but it was a VAST IMPROVEMENT in an age where customarily, if someone from village 'A' killed someone from village 'B', then village 'B' simply killed EVERYBODY in village 'A'. It was indeed a very civilizing law, and far ahead of its time. If God didn't take the people of ancient Israel further ahead all at once than they could have accepted, I don't see why you find fault.

It appears however that your anger at your 'god' simply clouds out all truly reasoned argumentation.

How about this for reasoned argumentation:

Isaiah 40:8

8The grass withers, the flower fades;

but the word of our God will stand for ever.

Followed by:

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

Exodus 21:7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.

Human beings are "money"? They can be beaten as long as they don't die after two days? God delivers "beautiful women" for kidnapping? Father selling daughter?

These are words written by a benevolent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God? A God that would know that--at least eventually--a civilized society would be quite justified in considering these words as ludicrous?

Once again, here is the issue--a very reasoned issue:

What is the likelihood that these words came from God or from man? It is not irrational to believe that they came from man. It is questionably rational, and possibly delusional, to believe that they came from God.

I have a great affinity for the concept of reason. Your attempts at forcing a conclusion (i.e. I am pretending) are baseless.

Edited July 10, 2006 by sylvan3

[Leonard]

I wouldn't say it is irrational to believe these words came from men. Rational people could certainly come to that conclusion. I think it IS irrational, to claim it is outside rational norms that someone could claim these words came from God, or a god, or visitors from outter space, or any number of possible sources outside common human ken!

I say it is sub-rational to exclude the possibility altogether, that's all. How can you be so cock-sure? That takes tremendous faith.......

[sylvan3]

I wouldn't say it is irrational to believe these words came from men. Rational people could certainly come to that conclusion. I think it IS irrational, to claim it is outside rational norms that someone could claim these words came from God, or a god, or visitors from outter space, or any number of possible sources outside common human ken!

I say it is sub-rational to exclude the possibility altogether, that's all. How can you be so cock-sure? That takes tremendous faith.......

I have faith that my beliefs are legitimate. I am comfortable with what strikes me as the truth. Doesn't a person have to be honest with himself before he can be honest with others?

I have great difficulty believing in a book that has talking snakes and donkeys, people who live to be 900 years old, countless contradictions, a "perfect" God who gets "angry" and "repenteth" that he made his own creations, a woman who gives birth when she is 100 years old, Moses going without food and water for 40 days, a supposedly benevolent God who tells people to kill others, and the list goes on.

I don't see where questioning this is a bad thing.

Edited July 11, 2006 by sylvan3

[sylvan3]

Slavery has to do w/ economics more than anything else.

It might have been, but I am not sure whether or not you think that slavery's endorsement/condonement as depicted in the Bible is what you would expect from a supposedly inerrant book.

The kind of slavery which you understand from the post-modern era is different than the type described in the Bible. The type of slavery which the Children of Israel were subject to in Egypt is different than the type of slavery described in the books of Moses as a type of indentured servitude.

Let's say for the sake of argument that it was different. Would you be comfortable today trying to promote the concept of slavery as depicted in the Bible?

[Floatingaxe]

What about a verse from Exodus 21 which definitively tells us that God considers slavery a sin:

Verse 16 says, "He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death."

Amen?

[sylvan3]

What about a verse from Exodus 21 which definitively tells us that God considers slavery a sin:

Verse 16 says, "He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death."

Amen?

Although it is heartening to hear something in this vein, all this tells us is that the Bible is--surprise--contradictory.

Please remember that for slavery to take a foothold in the 1800s in this country, there was VIGOROUS and successful defense of the practice based on scripture.

[Floatingaxe]

What about a verse from Exodus 21 which definitively tells us that God considers slavery a sin:

Verse 16 says, "He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death."

Amen?

Although it is heartening to hear something in this vein, all this tells us is that the Bible is--surprise--contradictory.

Please remember that for slavery to take a foothold in the 1800s in this country, there was VIGOROUS and successful defense of the practice based on scripture.

Doesn't matter how people twist the scriptures to fit their agenda--it is plainly something that God forbids and always has. The bible is not contradictory in the least--if you know God--you know that His Word is infallible and able to stand up to all testing and scrutiny!

[sylvan3]

What about a verse from Exodus 21 which definitively tells us that God considers slavery a sin:

Verse 16 says, "He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death."

Amen?

Although it is heartening to hear something in this vein, all this tells us is that the Bible is--surprise--contradictory.

Please remember that for slavery to take a foothold in the 1800s in this country, there was VIGOROUS and successful defense of the practice based on scripture.

Doesn't matter how people twist the scriptures to fit their agenda--it is plainly something that God forbids and always has. The bible is not contradictory in the least--if you know God--you know that His Word is infallible and able to stand up to all testing and scrutiny!

That's easy to say, but hard to prove.

Please consider:

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property". (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

This doesn't sound like God forbidding slavery. It sounds like he cares a lot about whether or not someone's "property" dies after two days from a good beating, though.