How can a God of love allow stoning as a death penalty ?

[pointer]

you operate from the assumption that the Bible is "fact". In fact, it is fiction, because it can't be proven.

Fiction is what is known not to be fact, invented, like a novel, or the Pink Panther. The Bible accounts in Genesis 1-11 probably contain little fact, being allegorical, but from Genesis 12 onwards they may be fact, and it is not possible to prove that they are not.

People become Christians because they find the gospel of Jesus, who they hear loved them and died to take away the penalty of their sins, compelling enough for them to commit their whole lives to him. This seems much more real and relevant to them that any mundane fact, like the valence of carbon, or even the state of their bank balance. They may know this is true if they know nothing else.

People become Christians because they see a difference in the life of another they know who has decided to become a Christian. Such a convert may turn from being a surly, dishonest troublemaker to a pleasant, reliable and useful person. They may turn from a life of crime or dissolution to one of making contributions of great value to family, work or society generally. They may not change in an obvious way, but become more tolerant, forgiving, patient, peaceful and loving. It is this sort of 'bottom line' change that convinces many, where words will not do, not even words in the Bible.

The Bible's existence is fact; it's content is not fact and is, at best, alleged fact.

Agreed. It may be fiction, but may not be.

Humans that are 950-years-old do not exist, and it cannot be proven that they ever existed.

Or that they did not. As they are mentioned only in part of the Bible that is held to be allegorical, it is unimportant.

Therefore, it is quite reasonable to conclude that this concept, as well as many other aspects of the Bible, are fiction. This is basic reason/rationality.

That is basic bias! Even if the Bible claimed literal fact here, there is no reason in principle why this is not possible.

If you say that I can't prove that 950-year-old men (or other aspects of the Bible) never existed, you may be correct. However, this does not turn alleged facts into actual facts.

That would be no barrier to faith, though.

What is fantastic for mankind, like Superman, is not fantastic for God. One would expect miracles from the creator. It should be realised that, when Jesus was on earth, he did not use miracles except to draw attention to his words, and his loving intentions. What he did not want, and what he condemned the Jews for demanding, was miracles as intellectually compelling, in-your-face 'proof'. This is because he does not want followers who follow for the wrong reasons.

This all, once again, leads to a reasonable conclusion that it was the product of human imagination, which is the definition of fiction.

Where is the reason in that? It is pure opinion at present.

I will let my previous argument stand.

I take it you agree that it is faulty, there being no reply at all to my arguments against.

[sylvan3]

you operate from the assumption that the Bible is "fact". In fact, it is fiction, because it can't be proven.

Fiction is what is known not to be fact, invented, like a novel, or the Pink Panther. The Bible accounts in Genesis 1-11 probably contain little fact, being allegorical, but from Genesis 12 onwards they may be fact, and it is not possible to prove that they are not.

People become Christians because they find the gospel of Jesus, who they hear loved them and died to take away the penalty of their sins, compelling enough for them to commit their whole lives to him. This seems much more real and relevant to them that any mundane fact, like the valence of carbon, or even the state of their bank balance. They may know this is true if they know nothing else.

People become Christians because they see a difference in the life of another they know who has decided to become a Christian. Such a convert may turn from being a surly, dishonest troublemaker to a pleasant, reliable and useful person. They may turn from a life of crime or dissolution to one of making contributions of great value to family, work or society generally. They may not change in an obvious way, but become more tolerant, forgiving, patient, peaceful and loving. It is this sort of 'bottom line' change that convinces many, where words will not do, not even words in the Bible.

The Bible's existence is fact; it's content is not fact and is, at best, alleged fact.

Agreed. It may be fiction, but may not be.

Humans that are 950-years-old do not exist, and it cannot be proven that they ever existed.

Or that they did not. As they are mentioned only in part of the Bible that is held to be allegorical, it is unimportant.

Therefore, it is quite reasonable to conclude that this concept, as well as many other aspects of the Bible, are fiction. This is basic reason/rationality.

That is basic bias! Even if the Bible claimed literal fact here, there is no reason in principle why this is not possible.

If you say that I can't prove that 950-year-old men (or other aspects of the Bible) never existed, you may be correct. However, this does not turn alleged facts into actual facts.

That would be no barrier to faith, though.

What is fantastic for mankind, like Superman, is not fantastic for God. One would expect miracles from the creator. It should be realised that, when Jesus was on earth, he did not use miracles except to draw attention to his words, and his loving intentions. What he did not want, and what he condemned the Jews for demanding, was miracles as intellectually compelling, in-your-face 'proof'. This is because he does not want followers who follow for the wrong reasons.

This all, once again, leads to a reasonable conclusion that it was the product of human imagination, which is the definition of fiction.

Where is the reason in that? It is pure opinion at present.

I will let my previous argument stand.

I take it you agree that it is faulty, there being no reply at all to my arguments against.

You say, "It [the Bible] may be fiction, or it may not be." This is not a strong argument in favor of the Bible being the word of God, sorry.

Edited July 16, 2006 by sylvan3

[pointer]

You say, "It [the Bible] may be fiction, or it may not be." This is not a strong argument in favor of the Bible being the word of God, sorry.

Nobody makes that argument. The Christian does not ever say, "Here is God's Word, you must believe it." The Christian says, "Christ died for your sins." Those who accept that also accept the Bible and live by it.

[Fool-4-Christ]

You say, "It [the Bible] may be fiction, or it may not be." This is not a strong argument in favor of the Bible being the word of God, sorry.

Nobody makes that argument. The Christian does not ever say, "Here is God's Word, you must believe it." The Christian says, "Christ died for your sins." Those who accept that also accept the Bible and live by it.

Hello All,

I was invited here by a friend from church and it is so painful to read these posts. It appears that there is a gross misunderstanding of God's character and man's sinful condition before a Holy and Just God.

Sylvan3 is right! That is a very poor arguement for the infallibility, inerrancy and inspiration of Holy Scripture. I will also go on to say that I do believe the Bible litterally from cover to cover - Genesis to Revelation, that it is the word of God a divine revelation of Himself to man. I have found it to be axiomatic = "self-evident" and not needing proof. You see Sylvan the burden of proof is on you. I live by faith.

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

According to Scripture I am only asked to give a reason for the hope that I have.

1 Peter 3:14-16

But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

I'm sure we can agree that the bible as a text is a historical document of antiquity like Homers Iliad, the gospel of Judas, etc. and there is more than enough manuscript evidence to support this claim (check it out for yourself). I find it funny how no one ever questions the validity of any other work of antiquity but they will question the Bible. You see it's usually not the text itself that is in question but rather the claims that it makes.

Correction Pointer: I do say that you "must believe the Word of God", how can one ever believe in Christ without believing in the Specific Revelation given by God to reveal Him to us?

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

However Sylvan, it is not my job to make you "believe" the inspiration of the bible. That is a work of God. Christians don't forget that it is clear Sylvan in an unregenerate state will never "understand" the bible and it is foolishness to expect him to.

1 Corinthians 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Job 32:7-9

I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom. But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.

1 Corinthians 1:18-19

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Sylvan needs to understand his sinfulness before a Holy God and then and only then may God grant repentence.

Sylvan you can disagree if you like but that doesn't change reality - If I say I don't believe in trucks and walk out on to a freeway of oncoming traffic, I'll probably be convinced rather quickly. The same remains for you. We all have to face God on Judgement Day.

Yes, I am coming from the premis that God does in fact exist and I am assuming that you are an Athiest? I have a few questions for you:

1) Do you know the combined weight of all the sand on all the beaches of Hawaii?

2) Do you know how many hairs are on the back of a fully grown Tibetan Yak?

3) Do you believe in absolute truth?

4) Do you believe in your heart that "God does not exist"?

Please allow me to address the inital question: How can God allow stoning as a death penalty?

We are working from the stand point that man is inherently good, and by being good he diserves some sort of mercy. This is counter biblical:

Matthew 19:17

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Romans 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Genesis 6:5

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

I saw someone post that the flood wiped out the sin and that the cancer came back. Well this is an illogicial arguement because Noah and the others were still bound by their sin nature. So sin nor its bondage was completely removed from the earth. However God's promise of Messiah was still preserved.

Genesis 3:15

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[d] and her offspring;

he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." - Christ revealed in the very first chapters of Genesis, this is prophesy of the Cross and the Atonement.

We are all guilty before God, we are sinners in need of His grace (God's undeserved favor). He is a just judge and if we were given what we deserve we would all be cast into Hell. So in commanding that men, women, and children who are inherently wicked be put to death is not something unjust. What is unjust if you ask me would be that God turns his back on sin and allows it to go unpunished.

As humans made in God's image we all have a sense of justice. Believers and unbelievers alike are offended by child molesters, murderers, rapists, etc. Think of all the murders and rapes that have taken place where the offender never gets caught. We as believers find great comfort in knowing that sin will be punished. However the bible states that not only these will be punished for their crimes but also adulterers, theives, blasphemers, and liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

Revelations 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The bible states that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

Romans 9:14-16

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Exodus 33:9

And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Job understood this full well. When calamity fell upon his house he understood the Soverignty of God:

Job 1:20-22

Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

God would have been just in condeming us all at birth. In and of ourselves we are not good. Even our good works are abomnible in the eyes of the Lord.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Christians we have a serious problem (that usually leads to these type of vain discussions) if we neglect the fact that we are sinful fallen humans from birth.

Psalm 51:4-6

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

We deserve nothing but wrath from God and in His tender mercy He ordained from eternity past that he would provide a way for fallen, sinful man to be forgiven through the death of His Son Christ Jesus - The Lamb of God slain before the foundations of the earth.

John 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Revelation 13:7-9

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

God has pronounced a death sentence on all of humanity: We are all part of the "Ultimate Stastic" - 10 out of 10 people die! This is evidence of the heinousness of sin.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Men, women and children are not condemed to Hell because "they don't believe in Jesus" but rather because of SIN.

John 3:17-19

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

In rejecting Christ's payment for our sins we are left guilty before God and are due our punishment. We are not made righteous by our own merits but by the shed blood of Christ.

Romans 3:22-24

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Christ's love is this: that He died for sinners!

Romans 5:7-9

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

God's ultimate love is demonstrated in the Cross of Jesus Christ and how foolish of us, sinful humanity, to think that if God himself came into this world and clothed himself in flesh and paid the ultimate price for us that we should ever hold a charge of unrighteousness to Him even if we can't grasp the concept of Him commanding that children be put to death.

What great love that Christ has for us sinners like us:

John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Sylvan it is my sincere prayer that God would remove your heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh.

Ezeikel 36:25-27

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I pray that the Lord grant you repentance and that you will cry out to Him for mercy, acknowledging that your are a sinner in need of His grace. Today is the day of salvation. Cry out to God while there is still time, we are not promised tomorrow. Pray that God will give you understanding and that you will be able to heed the call of the Gospel. Repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ...

2 Timothy 2:24-26

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

In His Precious Truth,

Paul Kaiser

P.S. - I hope that my argument was worthy of your intellegent response and I look forward to your comments.

Edited July 19, 2006 by Fool-4-Christ

[Floatingaxe]

Amen, Fool-4-Christ!

You have such an understanding and a gift! Praise God for that post!

[Guest lnj]

you operate from the assumption that the Bible is "fact". In fact, it is fiction, because it can't be proven.

Fiction is what is known not to be fact, invented, like a novel, or the Pink Panther. The Bible accounts in Genesis 1-11 probably contain little fact, being allegorical, but from Genesis 12 onwards they may be fact, and it is not possible to prove that they are not.

People become Christians because they find the gospel of Jesus, who they hear loved them and died to take away the penalty of their sins, compelling enough for them to commit their whole lives to him. This seems much more real and relevant to them that any mundane fact, like the valence of carbon, or even the state of their bank balance. They may know this is true if they know nothing else.

People become Christians because they see a difference in the life of another they know who has decided to become a Christian. Such a convert may turn from being a surly, dishonest troublemaker to a pleasant, reliable and useful person. They may turn from a life of crime or dissolution to one of making contributions of great value to family, work or society generally. They may not change in an obvious way, but become more tolerant, forgiving, patient, peaceful and loving. It is this sort of 'bottom line' change that convinces many, where words will not do, not even words in the Bible.

The Bible's existence is fact; it's content is not fact and is, at best, alleged fact.

Agreed. It may be fiction, but may not be.

Humans that are 950-years-old do not exist, and it cannot be proven that they ever existed.

Or that they did not. As they are mentioned only in part of the Bible that is held to be allegorical, it is unimportant.

Therefore, it is quite reasonable to conclude that this concept, as well as many other aspects of the Bible, are fiction. This is basic reason/rationality.

That is basic bias! Even if the Bible claimed literal fact here, there is no reason in principle why this is not possible.

If you say that I can't prove that 950-year-old men (or other aspects of the Bible) never existed, you may be correct. However, this does not turn alleged facts into actual facts.

That would be no barrier to faith, though.

What is fantastic for mankind, like Superman, is not fantastic for God. One would expect miracles from the creator. It should be realised that, when Jesus was on earth, he did not use miracles except to draw attention to his words, and his loving intentions. What he did not want, and what he condemned the Jews for demanding, was miracles as intellectually compelling, in-your-face 'proof'. This is because he does not want followers who follow for the wrong reasons.

This all, once again, leads to a reasonable conclusion that it was the product of human imagination, which is the definition of fiction.

Where is the reason in that? It is pure opinion at present.

I will let my previous argument stand.

I take it you agree that it is faulty, there being no reply at all to my arguments against.

You say, "It [the Bible] may be fiction, or it may not be." This is not a strong argument in favor of the Bible being the word of God, sorry.

Sylvan3, You speak as one who has absolute facts that the Bible is wrong. On the point you raised about 950 year old human beings never existing because there is no proof, I wonder if you would believe that dinosaurs roamed this planet if there were never any of their bones unearthed. There is strong evidence in many countries and stories in many different cultures of a global flood having actually taken place. A catastrophic flood. In Genesis before the flood, it hints that there were no rains as we experience it today. Gen 2 v5,6 . So there was a totally different evironment that the first human beings lived in. It was after the flood, which changed the earths atmosphere, and enviromental conditions, that caused human beings life spans to start to decline.

If athiests accept that the world we know has been spinning for millions of years, why be so shocked that some followers of Christ literally believe the creation account ? That man once lived to 900. LNJ

[pointer]

I do believe the Bible litterally from cover to cover - Genesis to Revelation, that it is the word of God a divine revelation of Himself to man. I have found it to be axiomatic = "self-evident" and not needing proof. You see Sylvan the burden of proof is on you. I live by faith.

Which of those sentences can be proved?

[sylvan3]

I do believe the Bible litterally from cover to cover - Genesis to Revelation, that it is the word of God a divine revelation of Himself to man. I have found it to be axiomatic = "self-evident" and not needing proof. You see Sylvan the burden of proof is on you. I live by faith.

This response is to LNJ and Fool-4-Christ.

I think we can agree that faith does not equal fact. Establishing something as fact is not easy. The Bible contains many extraordinary claims that, in the absence of extraordinary evidence, can only be believed on faith. I understand that this faith may be real for you. It is still faith.

I also have faith. However, my faith is that the Bible is not inerrant and that 950-year-old men and talking snakes (among other extraordinary claims) did not exist. I have faith that there isn't a God who is going to create a world in which people who don't "think" a certain way will perish in hell for eternity.

Therefore, you can say that your faith is legitimate. That's fine; it may be legitimate for you. However, I can also say that my faith is legitimate.

[tah]

I have no trouble at all believing there could have been a talking snake...

I believe in 950 year old men and women...

There was a talking ass..if you could you could ask Balaam about it...

Jesus said he could make the stones to raise up children of Abraham..

There is not anything God cannot do or allow to be..

I put no limits on His ability....

All Mighty God...

And as far as the OP goes..God is just in all He does or allows...

I used to question but realized I was making myself more righteous than God to accuse Him of any wrong doing....

Any time I say "How/why could God do that or allow that " I am putting my opinion above His...

Scary thing to do, to me to put my mind above His....

[sylvan3]

I have no trouble at all believing there could have been a talking snake...

I believe in 950 year old men and women...

There was a talking ass..if you could you could ask Balaam about it...

Jesus said he could make the stones to raise up children of Abraham..

There is not anything God cannot do or allow to be..

I put no limits on His ability....

All Mighty God...

And as far as the OP goes..God is just in all He does or allows...

I used to question but realized I was making myself more righteous than God to accuse Him of any wrong doing....

Any time I say "How/why could God do that or allow that " I am putting my opinion above His...

Scary thing to do, to me to put my mind above His....

If you put no limits on God's ability, do you have any idea why he would not give us more evidence of his existence other than a book that is interpreted in so many different ways? For example, why not proof in the form of answers to prayers in which someone's amputated limb is restored?