Copper Scroll Posted August 10, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 I've yet to find actual evidence that does contradict the Bible. The Bible, in the Genesis story, does not have to read in a literal fashion. In fact, if you read it, it reads in a more poetic fashion than it does in a literal one, therefore it makes no sense to make it literal. Once we do not do that, there are no contradictions between real scientific evidence and the Bible. I am in full agreement with this. I liken Genesis in many ways to Revelations. Where Revelations is revealed knowledge about the end, Genesis is revealed knowledge about the beginning. Both are completely allegorical and symbolic. Why don't more Christians here (in this forum) see it this way? Seeking to "make a name" for oneself does sound narcissistic and egotistic, but is there more to it than that? Is there something wrong with coming together for a common purpose? Does God find this threatening--the power gained through collective and organized action and ingenuity? Is God against scientific progress and social cooperation? I'd like your input on these questions too. The Tower of Babel story illistrates man's frailty. God did not think that man could unify in order to reach Him, instead they missed the point. He wanted them to fulfill His purpose and instead they refused trying to act more spiritual. This was really nothing more than a form of rebellion. In modern terms, anything that leads us to naturalistic conclusions or conclusions based on a naturalistic method would be displeasing to God because it does not acknowledge Him as the Creator. In the attempt to understand Creation, we inevitably forgo the creator, which God most certainly would be against. Believing that we are created leads to greater scientific advancements, such as transplant heart surgery or even the first bypass surgery for cyanotic heart defects. My problem with your interpretation of Genesis 11 is that the text doesn't say anything about people rebelling against anything God told them. God appears to have a problem with the tower because He doesn't want them to be omnipotent. The tower seems to represent the people's collective power, which appear to displease God. Did God really think that the people would become omnipotent? Is God opposed to collective action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted August 10, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2006 I am in full agreement with this. I liken Genesis in many ways to Revelations. Where Revelations is revealed knowledge about the end, Genesis is revealed knowledge about the beginning. Both are completely allegorical and symbolic. Why don't more Christians here (in this forum) see it this way? The way we are raised. I was raised on a literal interpretation. It wasn't until I began to actually study the issue that I came to a different conclusion. My problem with your interpretation of Genesis 11 is that the text doesn't say anything about people rebelling against anything God told them. God appears to have a problem with the tower because He doesn't want them to be omnipotent. The tower seems to represent the people's collective power, which appear to displease God. Did God really think that the people would become omnipotent? Is God opposed to collective action? Read chapter 9 where God tells them to be fruitful and multiply. Both words in English seem redundant but in Hebrew mean different things. "Multiply" obviously means have children, but also means to spread out. Fruitful means to develop culture. This must happen in seperation. What the story illistrates is two things: 1) Man's arrogance - the purpose was to built a tower in order to reach God...thus assuming that human effort is enough to reach God 2) Man's ignorance - man chose to stay in one spot instead of multiply, ignorant of the past they had come from (the time before the flood) That is, to me, what this story is attempting to convey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer of dreams Posted August 10, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 314 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2006 I advocate use of the scientific method which is the building blocks of science. Any christian who fears science simply because they are a christian has a lack of understand, or for that matter....faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I advocate use of the scientific method which is the building blocks of science. Any christian who fears science simply because they are a christian has a lack of understand, or for that matter....faith I know no Christian (I know countless!) who are afraid of Science! We know the chief Scientist personally! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer of dreams Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 314 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) I made sure to word myself carefully so as not to offend mainstream christianity. The truth is that most chrisitians dont fear science. However your not going to find anyone on this website that would say they fear science even if they really do. The real truth is that the scientific method can be applied to prove Gods exsistance or to disprove gods existance. It even says in the bible "Thou shall know me not by the understanding of man." I think this is the way God intended. the reason for this is because qoute "When you do things right, people wont be sure that you've done anything at all." Edited August 11, 2006 by Observer of dreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I made sure to word myself carefully so as not to offend mainstream christianity. The truth is that most chrisitians dont fear science. However your not going to find anyone on this website that would say they fear science even if they really do. The real truth is that the scientific method can be applied to prove Gods exsistance or to disprove gods existance. It even says in the bible "Thou shall know me not by the understanding of man." I think this is the way God intended. the reason for this is because qoute "When you do things right, people wont be sure that you've done anything at all." C'est bunk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 This seems to me to be having it both ways. You get to throw out anything in the Bible that conflicts with science and claim that part isn't to be taken literally. Anything else that you don't think conflicts with science is then to be taken literally. Then you get to say that the Bible is the word of God and has no contradictions with science. I won't presume to speak for a k, but it is kinda like having it both ways... because the Bible and your science textbooks serve two different purposes. Nothing is being "thrown out" of the Bible. There just is much value in taking myths literally without understanding the meaning they are meant to convey. There is great benefit in discovering the truths that underly and sustain myths. Whether the events really happened or not doesn't matter when you consider the basic truths about human nature, our relationship with the world, our relationships with each other, and our relationship with God taught in the stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 Read chapter 9 where God tells them to be fruitful and multiply. Both words in English seem redundant but in Hebrew mean different things. "Multiply" obviously means have children, but also means to spread out. Fruitful means to develop culture. This must happen in seperation. What the story illistrates is two things: 1) Man's arrogance - the purpose was to built a tower in order to reach God...thus assuming that human effort is enough to reach God 2) Man's ignorance - man chose to stay in one spot instead of multiply, ignorant of the past they had come from (the time before the flood) That is, to me, what this story is attempting to convey. Thanks. That makes sense. I wonder why God wanted cultural difference at this point when cultural difference seemed to be punished later on down the line (in during Israel's wars of conquest). Cultural difference seems to have allowed for the proliferation of countless idol gods--which most certainly is displeasing to the One God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted August 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 11, 2006 Read chapter 9 where God tells them to be fruitful and multiply. Both words in English seem redundant but in Hebrew mean different things. "Multiply" obviously means have children, but also means to spread out. Fruitful means to develop culture. This must happen in seperation. What the story illistrates is two things: 1) Man's arrogance - the purpose was to built a tower in order to reach God...thus assuming that human effort is enough to reach God 2) Man's ignorance - man chose to stay in one spot instead of multiply, ignorant of the past they had come from (the time before the flood) That is, to me, what this story is attempting to convey. Thanks. That makes sense. I wonder why God wanted cultural difference at this point when cultural difference seemed to be punished later on down the line (in during Israel's wars of conquest). Cultural difference seems to have allowed for the proliferation of countless idol gods--which most certainly is displeasing to the One God. Think of it this way: Diversity is a very, very good thing when done properly. Assume you have a white man, a black man, and a latino man in the same room. Now, all can be Christians, all can worship the same God, all can have the proper theology, but all can also have completely different cultures. Culture applies to music, food, certain traditions, celebrations, dances, etc. Unfortunately, false religion creeped in. The problem with the cultures in Israel's conquest wasn't that they were different, it was that they simply refused to follow God. If it were a cultural issue and not a religious one, then Rahab would not have been allowed to be spared. Yet, because she believed in God (though from a different culture), she was spared. Also, just because one is of the same culture doesn't mean they can't worship different gods. Look to modern times where someone from a white middle class culture can worship God, while another from the other kind can worship the mighty dollar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted August 12, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 Think of it this way: Diversity is a very, very good thing when done properly. Assume you have a white man, a black man, and a latino man in the same room. Now, all can be Christians, all can worship the same God, all can have the proper theology, but all can also have completely different cultures. Culture applies to music, food, certain traditions, celebrations, dances, etc. Unfortunately, false religion creeped in. The problem with the cultures in Israel's conquest wasn't that they were different, it was that they simply refused to follow God. If it were a cultural issue and not a religious one, then Rahab would not have been allowed to be spared. Yet, because she believed in God (though from a different culture), she was spared. Also, just because one is of the same culture doesn't mean they can't worship different gods. Look to modern times where someone from a white middle class culture can worship God, while another from the other kind can worship the mighty dollar. All of that is fine, even if I don't think that religion can be so easily untangled from other cultural forms. It still doesn't account for why God wanted cultural diversity. I understand and accept that we can't always know or understand the why , but the text suggests that He wanted it in order to prevent people from unifying and cooperating--and to prevent them from being omnipotent. How do you read that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts