Death of a Christian

[Marnie]

Amen? No, I don't agree.

For one, it ignores the current trend in American religion, even among true Christians; privatizing our faith. Our faith is only relevant within politics and even there it is losing ground, meaning we are becoming culturally irrelevant (aka "dead"). The church is not in any sort of positive revival. We see more poeple "walking the isle" but this is not salvation, nor is it proper discipleship. People are becoming spiritually awakened but not towards God; instead it is towards an anti-intellectual, false spiritual, hedonistic pleasure seeking faith. That is not revival.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, AK. Your insight on this issue is spot on and I appreciate your candor.

[pennyinabottlecap]

Mark my words, within the next 70 years if this path is not changed, Christianity will become worthless in America.

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18)

if were going to be that way, then christianity is already worthless in America! if we're judging on how we see man turning on each other over christian beliefs, or on the faults of man not living up to the necessary qualities of going to Heaven. But i believe christianity is never worthless, never will be, never was, because if God stands behind it, it's good enough for me.

"when god's busy in the fields paintin' flowers, i'll see ya in the fields, 'cause that's exactly where i wanna be."

-Nico and the Fat Pants

[billie]

Government and church got along at the birth of the country. The estrangement's been growing since.

[billie]

Of course, didn't you take American history? Wait. Are you an American?

[billie]

Of course, didn't you take American history? Wait. Are you an American?

Nope not American. I know american history in regards to wars and financial, anything else nope. I'm Canadian

Oooops, that's why. We were talking apples and oranges. Sorry.

[apothanein kerdos]

Of course, didn't you take American history? Wait. Are you an American?

Nope not American. I know american history in regards to wars and financial, anything else nope. I'm Canadian

Yeah, American government was founded on Christian principles.

Regardless, it is being removed to the point that Christianity is irrelevant. The worst thing for Christians is not that we are being "persecuted" but that we are being shoved into a Christian ghetto......a ghetto is worse than persecution in that you cannot effectively reach out to the culture but people are still apathetic because no one is really threatening their beliefs in Christ.

It's like Christian soma.

[EricH]

The spirit moves where it is unrestricted and unquenched! If you notice what has happened throughout Church history, you'll notice that wherever there was a move of God -- it was fresh -- then man "institutionalized" the church and soon it became dead.

For example, and I say this in VERY GENERAL terms and by no means speaking to every single person within each of these denominations, but rather giving an generalization of what's happening throughout the world.

The church was on the brink of death from 400-1500's when the Word of God was yanked out -- otherwise known as the dark ages. Until you had Luther and the Reformation.

This was the start of the Lutheran church and in the beginning despite the persecutions by the catholics thrived and continued -- until it became "institionalized". The move of the Spirit then took place among the Reformed (also Presbyterian -- John Calvin considered the founder of both) then out of this came the Anabaptists, continued to the Puritan movement, then through the Wesleyean brothers -- the start of Methodist church while at the same time Jonathan Edwards was leading the "Great Awakening" along with George Whitfield in the mid to late 1700's. Then you had the move of God through Moody, Finney, and Torrey.

I'll grant you this is a very brief overview of Church History, but it'll serve my purpose of illustrating a point. The Lutheran Church is dying -- where it was once thriving. The same can be said with most denominations -- how did this happen? It was when the Spirit of God was quenched!

Now we have the opposite effect taking place which is staging the great apostasy. Because people are so fearful of quenching the spirit -- the body isn't TESTING the spirit and thus the enemy is getting a foothold within the body.

So while we are in the same stage that the apostasy will take hold, we are also at a place where the greatest revival will take place as well! I believe that we are on the very doorsteps of this time!

We are in the last month of the harvest season and whenever you harvest fruit -- you wait till it's ripe on the tree, then you literally are harvesting in the last weeks of the season. You're harvesting so fast before the fruit falls to the ground and it spoils!

The harvest season is coming to a conclusion -- the wheat and tares are coming in together!

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

This is a very good point. Peter Berger (a noted sociologist) points out that every movement institutionalizes over time, when the vision of the founders is systematized in some way. God always keep a remnant that moves on

[Guest Summer Sun]

England same as USA, but agree that the church that God builds will prevail. As for the rest of Europe, I dunno....anyone?

Ultimately we need to be focussed on God, and listening to Him, and OBEYING HIM!!!! (Hides her head in shame! blush!)

Proverbs 3 v 5,6

Keep smiling, keep praying, keep hoping, keep loving, keep faithful.

[nebula]

The spirit moves where it is unrestricted and unquenched! If you notice what has happened throughout Church history, you'll notice that wherever there was a move of God -- it was fresh -- then man "institutionalized" the church and soon it became dead.

For example, and I say this in VERY GENERAL terms and by no means speaking to every single person within each of these denominations, but rather giving an generalization of what's happening throughout the world.

The church was on the brink of death from 400-1500's when the Word of God was yanked out -- otherwise known as the dark ages. Until you had Luther and the Reformation.

This was the start of the Lutheran church and in the beginning despite the persecutions by the catholics thrived and continued -- until it became "institionalized". The move of the Spirit then took place among the Reformed (also Presbyterian -- John Calvin considered the founder of both) then out of this came the Anabaptists, continued to the Puritan movement, then through the Wesleyean brothers -- the start of Methodist church while at the same time Jonathan Edwards was leading the "Great Awakening" along with George Whitfield in the mid to late 1700's. Then you had the move of God through Moody, Finney, and Torrey.

I'll grant you this is a very brief overview of Church History, but it'll serve my purpose of illustrating a point. The Lutheran Church is dying -- where it was once thriving. The same can be said with most denominations -- how did this happen? It was when the Spirit of God was quenched!

Now we have the opposite effect taking place which is staging the great apostasy. Because people are so fearful of quenching the spirit -- the body isn't TESTING the spirit and thus the enemy is getting a foothold within the body.

So while we are in the same stage that the apostasy will take hold, we are also at a place where the greatest revival will take place as well! I believe that we are on the very doorsteps of this time!

We are in the last month of the harvest season and whenever you harvest fruit -- you wait till it's ripe on the tree, then you literally are harvesting in the last weeks of the season. You're harvesting so fast before the fruit falls to the ground and it spoils!

The harvest season is coming to a conclusion -- the wheat and tares are coming in together!

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

It's always nice to hear someone who can see the glass as half-full.

Thank-you for the encouragement, George!

[Guest Rivendell]

Hi Everyone,

Just as there are "Blame America First" liberals there are "Blame the Church First" Christians. I have a problem with both. So much pessimism and church bashing within the Church just doesn't seem right. One point I'd like to make is this: Simply because a particular denomination at any given time in history experiences a drop in membership isn't necessarily indicative of spiritual problems.

As a Southern Baptist I live in a very small town, village actually, where the townsfolk are predominantly German Lutheran. My children spent their elementary school years attending the local private Lutheran School with a student population of only 60 or so students. It was great because they were receiving a Christ-centered education at an affordable price, not to mention the fact I could see the school from the end of my driveway and had little worry about their safety.

The town like many others of its kind (a small farming community) has seen a steady decline in population over the years brought about by various factors such as the demise of the commuter trains and local small businesses, Federal Floodplain Zoning interference (amounting to no less than legislated village cleansing) and accompanying severe building restrictions, and its young people moving away because of the subsequent lack of opportunity. Yet you would be hard pressed to find harder working salt of the earth people though their numbers steadily dwindle. Sadly enough the local church membership has dwindled as well, but it doesn't signify that the Church itself has done something wrong. They do a wonderful job with their limited resources and their hearts are as a big as any mega church in Texas.

As a Southern Baptist I most often would travel the forty-five minute drive to get to my church on Sundays, but there were many Sundays when a school activity required my kids to be at the Lutheran Church, most notably when their class was scheduled to sing in church or performing a play. Sure it was different from what I was accustomed to and I had to guard against the temptation to judge my Baptist services as somehow superior. Yet despite being nudged out of my 'comfort zone' I could readily see that these folk were no less spiritual, no less Christian. And just as an aside, I have great admiration for their love and charity, and diligence in taking care of one another.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make here is that the 'numbers game' has its drawbacks. Sometimes one has to look deeper for reasons for any particular decline in membership. If I had to choose between a Sunday morning in a mega church where the focal point of the sermon was "What's Wrong with the Church Today" or a little church on the prairie where farmers were ministered to with a sermon such as "Praying for Rain" I'd take the latter any day.

Love,

Rivendell