secondeve Posted August 30, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/21/1986 Share Posted August 30, 2006 (edited) If God wanted a perfect world, He would have made it that way. Again I say, He is the Beginning and the End. He had the power to change the course Adam would take, but as a God who had designed His plan for man to have free will and free choice, He allowed it. You are trying to understand it in a theoritical light, where I understand it in a spiritual light. I understand the different ways we see this question, CJ . One question, though: I've always taken Eden as an example that God did want a perfect world, but failed. If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin regardless of his warning, why warn them at all, except out of hope to prevent a sinful future? Why start with a perfect world, when you know you'll have to seal up the Garden and send the flood? Why must God search the Garden when Adam and Eve hide from him - not just because, as an omnipotent deity, he should surely know where they are, but because if he'd already forseen this future, why would it surprise him? Wouldn't he already know where they were going to be? Actually, tell a lie, two questions: God gave sin to mankind as a punishment. Even after Adam and Eve ate the apple, it was God who punished them with disease, old age, decay, pain and death. Of itself, the apple only made them aware that they were naked, and caused their 'spiritual' deaths. So was it more important to God that mankind live in a Sinful world and choose him, rather than live in Eden while knowing the difference between good and evil? Which was the more perfect world? Again (sorry!) three questions: If there was no evil in the world of Eden - if there was only good - then how could the apple make Adam and Eve able to distinguish good from evil, if there was no evil for them to distinguish good from? Lucifer (the serpent) was there, yes, but he was made apart from the world; Eden itself was free from evil. So what abilities did Adam and Eve gain, if there was no evil for them to percieve? Finally (sorry!) number four: Adam and Eve were naked. If this was evil - as suggsted by the fact that they clothed themselves once they'd eaten - does this mean that there was evil in the Garden in the form of their nakedness since their creation, but that until they ate the apple, they weren't aware of it? Edited August 30, 2006 by secondeve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightofJesus Posted August 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 362 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/19/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/04/1955 Share Posted August 30, 2006 If God wanted a perfect world, He would have made it that way. Again I say, He is the Beginning and the End. He had the power to change the course Adam would take, but as a God who had designed His plan for man to have free will and free choice, He allowed it. You are trying to understand it in a theoritical light, where I understand it in a spiritual light. I understand the different ways we see this question, CJ . One question, though: I've always taken Eden as an example that God did want a perfect world, but failed. If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin regardless of his warning, why warn them at all, except out of hope to prevent a sinful future? Why start with a perfect world, when you know you'll have to seal up the Garden and send the flood? Why must God search the Garden when Adam and Eve hide from him - not just because, as an omnipotent deity, he should surely know where they are, but because if he'd already forseen this future, why would it surprise him? Wouldn't he already know where they were going to be? Actually, tell a lie, two questions: God gave sin to mankind as a punishment. Even after Adam and Eve ate the apple, it was God who punished them with disease, old age, decay, pain and death. Of itself, the apple only made them aware that they were naked, and caused their 'spiritual' deaths. So was it more important to God that mankind live in a Sinful world and choose him, rather than live in Eden while knowing the difference between good and evil? Which was the more perfect world? Again (sorry!) three questions: If there was no evil in the world of Eden - if there was only good - then how could the apple make Adam and Eve able to distinguish good from evil, if there was no evil for them to distinguish good from? Lucifer (the serpent) was there, yes, but he was made apart from the world; Eden itself was free from evil. So what abilities did Adam and Eve gain, if there was no evil for them to percieve? Finally (sorry!) number four: Adam and Eve were naked. If this was evil - as suggsted by the fact that they clothed themselves once they'd eaten - does this mean that there was evil in the Garden in the form of their nakedness since their creation, but that until they ate the apple, they weren't aware of it? I know you sent these questions to cj, but if I may give a shot at it Well this is God's nature, He is hope, Love, and giving and I'm sure you have heard God did not want robots He wanted FAITHFUL cnildren, not just do as I say children. Our parents will warn us of eminent harm, wouldn't they? Well how much more then would God! He just wants us to obey and love Him Your next question, why start with a perfect world knowing He was going to send a flood and close up the garden? Well this is why God is God and I'm not, I do not know WHY all I know He did. There is some things that I'm sure we at some point wonder these same things, I just do not know. This is something that I really think is why God had to search for them was because God cannot look at sin. He can look at us today only if we are blood washed in the blood of Jesus! That is why He searches the heart of man not his actions. You see something about eating the fruit was something that started I think internally and cause the world from within us to decay. There is a heavy pentalty to pay for sin if we choose to go in that direction, WE WERE WARNED AGAIN. I have to say something about that statement you made about God gave sin to man, NO lucifer set that program in motion and was kicked out of heaven for his desire to try and replace God with himself, (PRIDE , which is one of the sins God HATES) and he ended up in the garden, now I don't know why that happened but of course it must have been part of HIS plan but we as humans choose sin and not life. You see the tree of life that was in the garden was what was the tree for our eternal life. Now Jesus is our eternal life! Our punishment is His judgment against sin, that was already spoke in the garden if they ate of the fruit you will surely die which of course meant spiritually, but decay also began in the world because they were kicked out of eden so they could no longer eat of the tree of life or we would never have been redeemed from that state. The tree of life would have sustained them even in their sinful state. I hope this is making sence? The reason they suddenly realized they were naked was their shame, not that nakedness was a sin, but it showed them their shame which they did not know before eating the fruit. Their spirit died and they became aware of things that they knew nothing about, THEY FELL and so the history of a fallen man began! I wouldn't say that it was more important to God for mankind to live in a sinful world, He just wants us to be faithful to Him and obviously we can't do that without the help of Jesus even to this day! With the serpent there is why God told them not to eat of the fruit for their eyes would be open to a sinful nature. Just like now on the other end of the spectrum, when we accept Jesus, our eyes are open to a new way of life, for them their eyes were also opened and they suddenly knew sin. I hope I helped some in answering, I enjoyed it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrose Posted August 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,580 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1960 Share Posted August 30, 2006 Free will? Of course we have free will. If we didn't we would all be robots because God would make the decisions for us. God wants us, of our own volition, to turn to Him .. He doesn't force us to do anything! Amen to that. It's all in God's plan, free will, free choice to choose Him or choose the world. Praise God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted August 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 30, 2006 The presuppostion of the argument is faulty from the beggining. It defines free will as the ability to do "anything". Everyday life tells us this is not possible. We cannot choose to universally suspend certain physical laws. All freedom of choice means is the ability to choose according to our natures and desires. So in a sense, the argument has set up a straw man (a faulty understanding of freedom) and then attacked it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrose Posted August 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,580 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1960 Share Posted August 30, 2006 If God wanted a perfect world, He would have made it that way. Again I say, He is the Beginning and the End. He had the power to change the course Adam would take, but as a God who had designed His plan for man to have free will and free choice, He allowed it. You are trying to understand it in a theoritical light, where I understand it in a spiritual light. I understand the different ways we see this question, CJ . One question, though: I've always taken Eden as an example that God did want a perfect world, but failed. If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin regardless of his warning, why warn them at all, except out of hope to prevent a sinful future? Why start with a perfect world, when you know you'll have to seal up the Garden and send the flood? Why must God search the Garden when Adam and Eve hide from him - not just because, as an omnipotent deity, he should surely know where they are, but because if he'd already forseen this future, why would it surprise him? Wouldn't he already know where they were going to be? Actually, tell a lie, two questions: God gave sin to mankind as a punishment. Even after Adam and Eve ate the apple, it was God who punished them with disease, old age, decay, pain and death. Of itself, the apple only made them aware that they were naked, and caused their 'spiritual' deaths. So was it more important to God that mankind live in a Sinful world and choose him, rather than live in Eden while knowing the difference between good and evil? Which was the more perfect world? Again (sorry!) three questions: If there was no evil in the world of Eden - if there was only good - then how could the apple make Adam and Eve able to distinguish good from evil, if there was no evil for them to distinguish good from? Lucifer (the serpent) was there, yes, but he was made apart from the world; Eden itself was free from evil. So what abilities did Adam and Eve gain, if there was no evil for them to percieve? Finally (sorry!) number four: Adam and Eve were naked. If this was evil - as suggsted by the fact that they clothed themselves once they'd eaten - does this mean that there was evil in the Garden in the form of their nakedness since their creation, but that until they ate the apple, they weren't aware of it? I know you sent these questions to cj, but if I may give a shot at it Well this is God's nature, He is hope, Love, and giving and I'm sure you have heard God did not want robots He wanted FAITHFUL cnildren, not just do as I say children. Our parents will warn us of eminent harm, wouldn't they? Well how much more then would God! He just wants us to obey and love Him Your next question, why start with a perfect world knowing He was going to send a flood and close up the garden? Well this is why God is God and I'm not, I do not know WHY all I know He did. There is some things that I'm sure we at some point wonder these same things, I just do not know. This is something that I really think is why God had to search for them was because God cannot look at sin. He can look at us today only if we are blood washed in the blood of Jesus! That is why He searches the heart of man not his actions. You see something about eating the fruit was something that started I think internally and cause the world from within us to decay. There is a heavy pentalty to pay for sin if we choose to go in that direction, WE WERE WARNED AGAIN. I have to say something about that statement you made about God gave sin to man, NO lucifer set that program in motion and was kicked out of heaven for his desire to try and replace God with himself, (PRIDE , which is one of the sins God HATES) and he ended up in the garden, now I don't know why that happened but of course it must have been part of HIS plan but we as humans choose sin and not life. You see the tree of life that was in the garden was what was the tree for our eternal life. Now Jesus is our eternal life! Our punishment is His judgment against sin, that was already spoke in the garden if they ate of the fruit you will surely die which of course meant spiritually, but decay also began in the world because they were kicked out of eden so they could no longer eat of the tree of life or we would never have been redeemed from that state. The tree of life would have sustained them even in their sinful state. I hope this is making sence? The reason they suddenly realized they were naked was their shame, not that nakedness was a sin, but it showed them their shame which they did not know before eating the fruit. Their spirit died and they became aware of things that they knew nothing about, THEY FELL and so the history of a fallen man began! I wouldn't say that it was more important to God for mankind to live in a sinful world, He just wants us to be faithful to Him and obviously we can't do that without the help of Jesus even to this day! With the serpent there is why God told them not to eat of the fruit for their eyes would be open to a sinful nature. Just like now on the other end of the spectrum, when we accept Jesus, our eyes are open to a new way of life, for them their eyes were also opened and they suddenly knew sin. I hope I helped some in answering, I enjoyed it ((((((((E)))))))))))) Thanks for helping me out on this. I'm trying so hard to not feel so bad for our brother, I don't know whether to stay on the boards and try again to answer or to just own my emotions and then let them go and rejoice for him. eve, I'll give you my thoughts on this when I can think more clearly. I hope you understand. Cj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest freakakafreak Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 we have freewill and choice, but God knows what we're going to choose because he's outside of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrose Posted September 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,580 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1960 Share Posted September 2, 2006 If I see into the future and watch an apple fall from a tree did I make the apple fall? The answer is no, but I knew it would. If I knew you were going to write this topic does that mean I made you write it? The answer is no, but I knew you would. Imagine you are in a room with two doors, BLACK and WHITE, and you decide to leave the room. (1) Since God is all-knowing, he must know which door you will choose to exit the room BEFORE you make the decision. If I look at a history book and learn about the American revolution and what actions George Washington took does that mean I made him perform those actions? If you say no because George Washington already performed those actions. I say to you that it is us who have already performed OUR actions, and God knows us as if we were in the past just as you know mr. Washington was in the past. Wisely put!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrose Posted September 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,580 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1960 Share Posted September 2, 2006 we have freewill and choice, but God knows what we're going to choose because he's outside of time Amen to that! In retrospect, I know that God has always been with me, waiting for me to come to Him. If we didn't have free will, free choice, what is the point to salvation. We would just be like robots as someone once said. I thank Him for giving me the choice to choose Him and with that He has rewarded me with more than I deserve. I have strayed and He didn't stop me but always knew I would come back because He dwells within me and I repent. Everyday I repent even for what I know not the sin I commited. The Holy Spirit is the greatest gift and keeps me on higher ground. I'm so grateful for choice. Can't wait for Heaven!!! Praise the Lord!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted September 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted September 2, 2006 we have freewill and choice, but God knows what we're going to choose because he's outside of time Amen to that! In retrospect, I know that God has always been with me, waiting for me to come to Him. If we didn't have free will, free choice, what is the point to salvation. We would just be like robots as someone once said. I thank Him for giving me the choice to choose Him and with that He has rewarded me with more than I deserve. I have strayed and He didn't stop me but always knew I would come back because He dwells within me and I repent. Everyday I repent even for what I know not the sin I commited. The Holy Spirit is the greatest gift and keeps me on higher ground. I'm so grateful for choice. Can't wait for Heaven!!! Praise the Lord!! Love your sweet spirit, cj! I can tell you love Jesus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrose Posted September 2, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,580 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1960 Share Posted September 2, 2006 we have freewill and choice, but God knows what we're going to choose because he's outside of time Amen to that! In retrospect, I know that God has always been with me, waiting for me to come to Him. If we didn't have free will, free choice, what is the point to salvation. We would just be like robots as someone once said. I thank Him for giving me the choice to choose Him and with that He has rewarded me with more than I deserve. I have strayed and He didn't stop me but always knew I would come back because He dwells within me and I repent. Everyday I repent even for what I know not the sin I commited. The Holy Spirit is the greatest gift and keeps me on higher ground. I'm so grateful for choice. Can't wait for Heaven!!! Praise the Lord!! Love your sweet spirit, cj! I can tell you love Jesus! Awwww shucks sis, ditto to you too... this is why we are family. We have a bond in Christ as his children and connects us all through his awesome abundant love! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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