Remitting Sins

[Kansasdad]

I can find the verse that tells us Mary was full of Grace if you feel the need to challenge

Gabriel in Luke says only that Mary was favoured- or lucky, in secular terms.

'And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you."' Luke 1:28-29 NASB

There is no necessary merit in being favoured; God sends His rain on the righteous and unrighteous. Ultimately, God has no favourites, and Mary had to repent or perish like everyone else must. No-one knows what her eternal fate will be.

There is only one way to God, and that is by the offence of the cross, and there are no soft and easy paths that allow human pride.

Here is what the scriptures say.

Luke 1: 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

That is only what the 'KJ'V says- and the 'KJ'V is certainly not Scripture. This is the second occasion in a few days in which error has been taught in this forum on the basis of the 'KJ'V's rendition. Here is an accurate rendition of the Greek:

'And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you."' Luke 1:28-29 NASB

That is not just my personal rendition, it is that of a highly respected, conservative translation. If you want to dispute it, you will need more resources than mere translations.

And here the same phrase is used again discribing Jesus when he was formed in Mary, and became man to dwell on earth.

John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I don't think it would be correct to say Jesus was a favored one or lucky.

Not lucky, no, but then your statement is erroneous. John does not use the same wording for Jesus as Luke does for Mary. Serious commentators do not use translations.

It might be added that the word 'hail' is ambiguous (a fact that sly Romanists take advantage of) and the KJV's rendition is a complete mess. It is no surprise that Roman Catholics have made so little complaint about a supposedly Protestant translation, and use it themselves on occasion!

You assume much but know little. That was not a quote from the KJV. It was quoted from Douay-Rheims

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Do inlighten us as to what version of the Bible you are using?

K.D.

[EricH]

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Do inlighten us as to what version of the Bible you are using?

K.D.

I am not sure what you mean here. The word used in Luke 1:28 is a verbal participle perfect passive vocative feminine singular of the verb Xaritaw meaning to bestow favor upon. It is also used in Ephesians 1:6 (in the Aorist indicative active) and pictures the grace that God has bestowed on us. John 1:14 does not use the same word. It uses the noun Xaris in a totally separate contruction. John 1:14 adds the modifier pleres which means "full" to the noun xaris for grace (pleres karitos). This modifier is not used in Luke 1:28. So the only person in the Bible that the literal phrase "full of grace" was to reference was Jesus.

The phrase "full of" in Luke 1:28 was added by the english translators. It is not there in the greek and not implied in the participle. Most versions I am looking at translate it as highly favored

[EricH]

Actually I misspoke. There is one other place in the NT where the phrase full of grace(pleres xaritos), as it is literally given in John 1:14, is used. That is in Acts 6:8 in reference to Stephen. So the only 2 places in the greek where the phrase "full of grace" is used are John 1:14 and Acts 6:8.

[pointer]

And here the same phrase is used again discribing Jesus when he was formed in Mary, and became man to dwell on earth.

John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I don't think it would be correct to say Jesus was a favored one or lucky.

Not lucky, no, but then your statement is erroneous. John does not use the same wording for Jesus as Luke does for Mary. Serious commentators do not use translations.

It might be added that the word 'hail' is ambiguous (a fact that sly Romanists take advantage of) and the KJV's rendition is a complete mess. It is no surprise that Roman Catholics have made so little complaint about a supposedly Protestant translation, and use it themselves on occasion!

You assume much but know little. That was not a quote from the KJV. It was quoted from Douay-Rheims

What difference does that make to anything?

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Then how does one explain the rendition of the RC New Jerusalem Bible:

'"Rejoice, you who enjoys God's favour!"'

(Edited by moderator)

[Guest drbelitz]

what does this topic have to do with the remittance of sins?

the Bible never says to go directly to God in confessing your sins.

does that mean we shouldn't?

according to many persons theologies, we should only do exactly what the Bible says, literally, which would mean you never directly ask God for forgiveness. This would mean you would always go through a presbyter or bishop as scripture does cover.

But the church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth knows better than that.

venial, confess to God, mortal go through a presbyter, normatively.

[pointer]

the Bible never says to go directly to God in confessing your sins.

To whom did Abel go?

the church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth knows better than that.

But who is the church? Not those like Cain, with blood on their hands, surely.

[Kansasdad]

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Do inlighten us as to what version of the Bible you are using?

K.D.

I am not sure what you mean here. The word used in Luke 1:28 is a verbal participle perfect passive vocative feminine singular of the verb Xaritaw meaning to bestow favor upon. It is also used in Ephesians 1:6 (in the Aorist indicative active) and pictures the grace that God has bestowed on us. John 1:14 does not use the same word. It uses the noun Xaris in a totally separate contruction. John 1:14 adds the modifier pleres which means "full" to the noun xaris for grace (pleres karitos). This modifier is not used in Luke 1:28. So the only person in the Bible that the literal phrase "full of grace" was to reference was Jesus.

The phrase "full of" in Luke 1:28 was added by the english translators. It is not there in the greek and not implied in the participle. Most versions I am looking at translate it as highly favored

You Asked, sorry it is so long.

Should Luke 1:28 Read "Grace" or "Highly favored"

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, FULL OF GRACE, the LORD IS WITH THEE..."(Luke 1:28)

The Annotation for Luke 1:28 in the 1582 Catholic Rheims Translation of the Bible in to English says:

" 28Full of grace) Note the excellence prerogatives of our B. Lady, and abhor those Heretics which make her no better than other vulgar woman, and therefor to take from her fullness of grace, they say here, Hail freely beloved, contraire to all significations of the Greek word, which is at the left, endued with Grace, as S. Paul useth it Eph. I. by S. Chrysostoms interpretation : or rather Full of grace, as-both* Greek and Latin fathers have always here understood it, and the Latin's also read it, namely S. Ambrose thus, Well is she only called full of grace, who only obtained grace which no other woman deserved, to be replenished with the author of grace. And if they did as well know the nature of these Greek words, as they would seem very skillful, they might easily observe that they signify fullness, as when them selves translate the like word (Luc. 16,20) full of force. Beza, Ulcerous." .

The translation "Full of Grace" instead of "Highly Favored" or "freely beloved" is far more accurate to the Greek. The Ancient Syriac, Arabic and Latin versions bare the truth of this out. The translation "Full of Grace" was also approved by the early Christian fathers.

This Scan is from The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa's. It is a translation of the ancient Eastern Aramaic Version of the Scriptures called the "Peshitta" . As we can the see third century Aramaic supports "Full of Grace" as the correct meaning of the passage.

(sorry scan images don't transfer)

St. Luke wrote kecharitomene [a perfect passive participle of the verb charitoo]. In secular Greek charis meant charm, that which attracts favor. It was used to translate Old Testament Hebrew hen which first meant a favorable attitude of God to us, then the expression of that favor, then what He gives as a

result of that favor. namely hokmah or beraka, wisdom or blessing. (Oo verbs means to put someone in the state expressed by the root, which here is charis. ) The word was not used broadly like NT charis which came to mean any gift from God to us. The net result was that charis could mean either favor or grace.

But now, a thing often overlooked: if God merely sat there and gave nothing but a smile, favor, then the human would do the good by his own power - which would be Pelagianism. So when we translate favor, we must keep this in mind, and usually would do better to translate grace. So then charitoo will mean to put into grace.

Luke 1:28 in the 1611 King James Version has in the Margin notes "Much Graced" [Click here to see the scan of the full page]. This Scan is taken from the Thomas Nelson reprint of the 1611 King James Version of the Bible.

Further, in English we may use a noun to mark a person as the ultimate in his class. Kecharitomene is used here as her personal name. So just as Mr. Tennis is the ultimate in the category of tennis. --therefore she would be "Miss Grace", much the same as full of grace.

The early Church father St. Jerome [who the translators of the 1611 King James Version called " a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him,".(From the Translators' Preface to the 1611 KJV)] translated "kecharitomene" as "gratiae plena" meaning 'full of grace which thou hast received" when creating The Vulgate. The Rheims new Testament [1582] has "Full of Grace". Many of the early Protestant versions also accepted "Grace" to be the proper translation.

This Beautiful picture of the Annunciation of the Angle Gabriel to the blessed Virgin Mary, graced the Title page of the New Testament in the 1717 Printing of the KJV. Click here to see the full Scan. This leaf is part of Part of my personal collection.

Wyclif's Version [1380] the verse says "Full of Grace"

Tyndale's Version [1534] the verse says "Full of Grace"

Cranmer's Version [1539] the verse says "Full of Grace"

Geneva [1599] says in the Margin Notes "might be rendered, 'full of favour and grace, " [ The Link is to a Scan from a 1608 Printing of the Geneva Bible]

Authorized Version or KJV [1611] says in the Margin notes "Much Graced"

Polyglott Bible [1838] says in the Margin notes "or Much Graced"

Revised Version [1885] says in the Margin Notes: "Endowed with Grace".

American Standard Version [1901] says in the Margin Notes: "or Endowed with Grace".

Scofield Edition [1909, revised in 1914] says in the Margin Notes "or Endued with Grace"

New Standard Reference Bible [1934] says in the Margin notes "Much Graced"

The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa's [1957] the verse says "peace be to you, O full of grace"

The Amplified [1958] in the verse (In brackets) "endowed with grace" with a foot note that says "literal translation"

A literal Translation by Jay P. Green [1985] the verse says "And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace!..."

The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by Jay P. Green [2nd edition 1985] the verse says "...Hail, one receiving grace!...

The Word Pictures in the New Testament, by the renowned Protestant Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, expounds Luke 1:28 as follows:

"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of chartoo and means endowed with grace ("charis"), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; (Plummer).[ Robertson, Archibald T., Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, 6 volumes, vol. 2, p.13]

It is certain that kecharitomene is directly concerned with the idea of "grace," since, as Vine noted, it is derived from the root word charis, whose literal meaning is "grace. The word "Charis" is translated by the King James Version, for example, 129 times (out of 150 total appearances) as "grace".

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass & DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1961, p.166; Smyth, H.W., Greek Grammar, Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1968, sec. 1852:b. )

We also have the another Protestant Greek scholar John Nolland, who expounds the Greek word "kecharitomene" as found in Luke 1:28 as follows:

"Luke 1:28...kecharitomene is a quite rare Hellanistic verb (only found elsewhere in the NT at Eph. 1:6 in the active) Etymologically it should mean 'To be furnished with Grace" (Word Biblical Commentary, volume 35A, Pg 50, Nelson, 1989 )

Thus, in just this one verse, pregnant with meaning and far-reaching implications, the uniqueness of Mary is strongly indicated, and the Immaculate Conception can rightly be deemed entirely consistent with the meaning of this passage.

More Greek References for "Full of Grace" found in Luke 1:28.

"Chartoo can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God..." [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta Ga., Bernard & Brothers publishing, 1982, pg 348]

"Chartoo...Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon...it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to" [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]

"The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena

[Kansasdad]

what does this topic have to do with the remittance of sins?

Quick answer.....absolutely nothing. but that is the nature of forum boards.

God Bless,

K.D.

[EricH]

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Do inlighten us as to what version of the Bible you are using?

K.D.

I am not sure what you mean here. The word used in Luke 1:28 is a verbal participle perfect passive vocative feminine singular of the verb Xaritaw meaning to bestow favor upon. It is also used in Ephesians 1:6 (in the Aorist indicative active) and pictures the grace that God has bestowed on us. John 1:14 does not use the same word. It uses the noun Xaris in a totally separate contruction. John 1:14 adds the modifier pleres which means "full" to the noun xaris for grace (pleres karitos). This modifier is not used in Luke 1:28. So the only person in the Bible that the literal phrase "full of grace" was to reference was Jesus.

Also, the term "full of" is simply not in Luke 1:28. Thet is the Greek work plene. It occurs in John 1:14 but not in Luke 1:28.

The phrase "full of" in Luke 1:28 was added by the english translators. It is not there in the greek and not implied in the participle. Most versions I am looking at translate it as highly favored

You Asked, sorry it is so long.

Should Luke 1:28 Read "Grace" or "Highly favored"

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, FULL OF GRACE, the LORD IS WITH THEE..."(Luke 1:28)

The Annotation for Luke 1:28 in the 1582 Catholic Rheims Translation of the Bible in to English says:

" 28Full of grace) Note the excellence prerogatives of our B. Lady, and abhor those Heretics which make her no better than other vulgar woman, and therefor to take from her fullness of grace, they say here, Hail freely beloved, contraire to all significations of the Greek word, which is at the left, endued with Grace, as S. Paul useth it Eph. I. by S. Chrysostoms interpretation : or rather Full of grace, as-both* Greek and Latin fathers have always here understood it, and the Latin's also read it, namely S. Ambrose thus, Well is she only called full of grace, who only obtained grace which no other woman deserved, to be replenished with the author of grace. And if they did as well know the nature of these Greek words, as they would seem very skillful, they might easily observe that they signify fullness, as when them selves translate the like word (Luc. 16,20) full of force. Beza, Ulcerous." .

The translation "Full of Grace" instead of "Highly Favored" or "freely beloved" is far more accurate to the Greek. The Ancient Syriac, Arabic and Latin versions bare the truth of this out. The translation "Full of Grace" was also approved by the early Christian fathers.

This Scan is from The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa's. It is a translation of the ancient Eastern Aramaic Version of the Scriptures called the "Peshitta" . As we can the see third century Aramaic supports "Full of Grace" as the correct meaning of the passage.

(sorry scan images don't transfer)

St. Luke wrote kecharitomene [a perfect passive participle of the verb charitoo]. In secular Greek charis meant charm, that which attracts favor. It was used to translate Old Testament Hebrew hen which first meant a favorable attitude of God to us, then the expression of that favor, then what He gives as a

result of that favor. namely hokmah or beraka, wisdom or blessing. (Oo verbs means to put someone in the state expressed by the root, which here is charis. ) The word was not used broadly like NT charis which came to mean any gift from God to us. The net result was that charis could mean either favor or grace.

But now, a thing often overlooked: if God merely sat there and gave nothing but a smile, favor, then the human would do the good by his own power - which would be Pelagianism. So when we translate favor, we must keep this in mind, and usually would do better to translate grace. So then charitoo will mean to put into grace.

Luke 1:28 in the 1611 King James Version has in the Margin notes "Much Graced" [Click here to see the scan of the full page]. This Scan is taken from the Thomas Nelson reprint of the 1611 King James Version of the Bible.

Further, in English we may use a noun to mark a person as the ultimate in his class. Kecharitomene is used here as her personal name. So just as Mr. Tennis is the ultimate in the category of tennis. --therefore she would be "Miss Grace", much the same as full of grace.

The early Church father St. Jerome [who the translators of the 1611 King James Version called " a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him,".(From the Translators' Preface to the 1611 KJV)] translated "kecharitomene" as "gratiae plena" meaning 'full of grace which thou hast received" when creating The Vulgate. The Rheims new Testament [1582] has "Full of Grace". Many of the early Protestant versions also accepted "Grace" to be the proper translation.

This Beautiful picture of the Annunciation of the Angle Gabriel to the blessed Virgin Mary, graced the Title page of the New Testament in the 1717 Printing of the KJV. Click here to see the full Scan. This leaf is part of Part of my personal collection.

Wyclif's Version [1380] the verse says "Full of Grace"

Tyndale's Version [1534] the verse says "Full of Grace"

Cranmer's Version [1539] the verse says "Full of Grace"

Geneva [1599] says in the Margin Notes "might be rendered, 'full of favour and grace, " [ The Link is to a Scan from a 1608 Printing of the Geneva Bible]

Authorized Version or KJV [1611] says in the Margin notes "Much Graced"

Polyglott Bible [1838] says in the Margin notes "or Much Graced"

Revised Version [1885] says in the Margin Notes: "Endowed with Grace".

American Standard Version [1901] says in the Margin Notes: "or Endowed with Grace".

Scofield Edition [1909, revised in 1914] says in the Margin Notes "or Endued with Grace"

New Standard Reference Bible [1934] says in the Margin notes "Much Graced"

The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa's [1957] the verse says "peace be to you, O full of grace"

The Amplified [1958] in the verse (In brackets) "endowed with grace" with a foot note that says "literal translation"

A literal Translation by Jay P. Green [1985] the verse says "And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace!..."

The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by Jay P. Green [2nd edition 1985] the verse says "...Hail, one receiving grace!...

The Word Pictures in the New Testament, by the renowned Protestant Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, expounds Luke 1:28 as follows:

"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of chartoo and means endowed with grace ("charis"), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; (Plummer).[ Robertson, Archibald T., Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, 6 volumes, vol. 2, p.13]

It is certain that kecharitomene is directly concerned with the idea of "grace," since, as Vine noted, it is derived from the root word charis, whose literal meaning is "grace. The word "Charis" is translated by the King James Version, for example, 129 times (out of 150 total appearances) as "grace".

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass & DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1961, p.166; Smyth, H.W., Greek Grammar, Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1968, sec. 1852:b. )

We also have the another Protestant Greek scholar John Nolland, who expounds the Greek word "kecharitomene" as found in Luke 1:28 as follows:

"Luke 1:28...kecharitomene is a quite rare Hellanistic verb (only found elsewhere in the NT at Eph. 1:6 in the active) Etymologically it should mean 'To be furnished with Grace" (Word Biblical Commentary, volume 35A, Pg 50, Nelson, 1989 )

Thus, in just this one verse, pregnant with meaning and far-reaching implications, the uniqueness of Mary is strongly indicated, and the Immaculate Conception can rightly be deemed entirely consistent with the meaning of this passage.

More Greek References for "Full of Grace" found in Luke 1:28.

"Chartoo can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God..." [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta Ga., Bernard & Brothers publishing, 1982, pg 348]

"Chartoo...Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon...it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to" [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]

"The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena

[Kansasdad]

[

The bottom line of my post is that the term used in Luke 1:28 is not the same on used in reference to Jesus in John 1:14. It is also not a special title given only to Mary. It is used in reference to all believers in Ephesians 1:6. The other term used for Jesus is also used in reference to Stpehen. So your entire premise is based on a false assumption. Whether one translates it favour or grace is meaningless. It can have either connotation. Both word are semantically the same.

The phrase "full of" simply does not exist in Luke 1:28. That is the greek word plene which is just not there. It is there is John 1:14 and Acts 6.

It is true that the tense is the perfect. But that does not imply fulness. Ithe perfect tense speaks of completed action as viewed by the author. In other words the act of bestowing is complete. Not that the object is as full as they could be. For the quote above to say full of is a better translation speaks to their theological bias, rather than any linquistic signals. The cleares way for the authro to have indicatred full would be the use of the word plene. The use of the perfect tense to convey this is not the usual function of the perfect. The perfect is used to convey action in time. It is a tense.

Eric, I just provided over 20 different sources of scholars some Catholic, Some Protestant who disagree with you. They clearly agree that "full of" is a proper understanding of how the word was used. You know I love ya but I am going to have to go with the experts on this one. And regardless, it also is clearly talking about Grace and not highly favored as Pointer was trying to say.

God Bless,

K.D.