What happens to those without knowledge of Christ?

[Smalcald]

So cardcaptor, we can have salvation outside of Christ?

Becuase that is what you are proposing for those who have never heard of Christ. For them, thier works save them without Christ, while for us we must believe in Christ and I agree follow Him. But ALL of the passages you have provided are about people with faith in Christ. Faith and works are no more seperable than smoke is from fire i totally agree, those who have faith and are able cannot HELP but perform and to do these things to try to follow Christ and obey Him. If we have faith in Christ we love Him, if we love Him we will want to please Him becuase we love Him, NOT becuase we are trying to win salvation.

I encourage all people to read Acts 9, it is the conversion of Paul. Tell me how Paul came to faith in Christ, the man who the Holy Spirit used to give us most of the New Testament. Here is a portion of it:

1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

Only Jesus will save anybody, outside of Christ our works our good conscience, are as worthless rags and will send us to one place, and that is hell and that includes the works and good conscience of every single human who has ever lived. A theology which says otherwise denies our very Lord and Savior and denies His power to save. This is not about us, it is about Christ and what He has already done for us. If we have faith we will do what He tells us, we will obey, as Paul did.

[Smalcald]

Just wanted to pose this question. There appears to be much discussion on it from various sects.

I am interested in knowing what other Christian denoms/Christian religions, believe regarding those who have never had a knowledge of Christ. For instance, what about someone who has died without ever even hearing about Jesus Christ? Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Many are long passed from this world.

I was looking this information up on the Internet a few days ago and I never expected to see such a diverging thought in Christianity. I am fairly well versed on what Mormons believe here and now I know what the United Church of God believes on it, as I read their statement of beliefs.

Some apologists on the net say that these souls are just lost. What say ye?

grapeseed

At the second death they will be thrown in the lake of fire

________________________________________________________________________________

________

No they wont be thrown in the lake of fire at the second death. What about innocent babies, dying at birth. What about children in India, and as grapeseed said, Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Millions who have lived and died in Tibet, central Australia, South America, what about all the millions of people who have died throughout history never having heard of Jesus Christ,or even God, at all?

One needs to read these Scriptures and get a handle on them and try and understand what Paul is stating here.

The fact is, God is no respector of persons. In other words, whether you were born a thousand years ago and never heard of Him or Jesus, He will judge you according to how you lived your life and obeyed your conscience. We can all decipher between good and evil in any century.

"For there is no respect of persons with God (Romans 2:11).

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish with-out law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

"(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these having NOT THE LAW, ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES: Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE also BEARING WITNESS, and their THOUGHTS the mean while EXCUSING ONE ANOTHER;)" (ROMANS 2:11-15).

In other words; "God will deal with every one, including the heathen, who have never heard of the gospel. He will deal with them on the basis of the light they have recieved, and on the basis of obeying their own conscience"

Haz.

It just blows me away that people don't get that.

Yes, if the above is not true, it will be standing room only in Hell. Imagine how many billions of men, women, and innocent children have died over the ages who have never ever heard of Jesus Christ let alone seen a Bible?. And also, Heaven wont be over croweded under the same circumstance.

Haz.

I am just glad to find out that faith in Christ is no longer needed, that indeed Christ is no longer needed.

Ooops maybe not:

Romans:

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

[HAZARD]

swordfish quotes John 3:3.

In John 3:3 Jesus in not refering to everyone who has ever been born, and lived and died throughout the ages, not having know Him or the gospel. And He certinly is not applying this Scripture to them in any way.

In John 3;3 Jesus is talking to those who have heard and did know of Him. Notice in John 3:1-2 "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, who came to Jesus and said to Him, Rabbi, we know thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest except God be with Him."

Jesus answered him John 3:3. "Verily, verily, I say unto THEE, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jesus replied to Nicodemus; I say unto THEE, Nicodemus, and the many others like you, those who know at least as much as you know, not the billions who have died never knowing Me of God, or the gospel.

Nicodemus continued to try and trick Jesus with further questions and failed.

Finally in verse 10 Jesus answered and said to Nicodemus: "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

See how clear it is when looked at honestly. Jesus was answering a man who knew God, and supposedly knew at least the Old testament. Jesus words in John 3;3 were not directed to innocent babies, women, children, men, of all nationalities and or religeous persuasion who have died never knowing Him, or the true God, and never having heard of the gospel.

Haz.

Edited October 26, 2006 by HAZARD

[Smalcald]

No one can be saved without Christ, babies, people who have never heard of Christ, Muslims, whoever.

The bible claims that "no one is righteous NOT ONE". That includes everybody, and without that no one will be saved, except for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Now, the problem many are having is a formula notion of faith which limits the power of Christ and limits the Holy Spirit. I have never met a small child, who having been told the Gospel of Christ even in a very very simple way, does not love Jesus and believe in Jesus. In fact Christ holds little children up as the MODELS of faith we should be. Of course Christ will save these little babies, but He will come to them and they will believe.

He came to Paul a murderous man who made it his special practice to help capture and kill Christians; certainly He can come directly to every other human being who may not have heard of Christ.

But we do know that nobody will be saved because they are good people.

[Fiosh]

Can anyone show me where in the Bible is specifically and clearly states that those who never heard of Jesus are condemned to hell???

I'm not referring to those verses that say you must "believe" or "accept"....both those terms imply that you have already heard and must now make a decision.

Anyone?

F

[HAZARD]

Just wanted to pose this question. There appears to be much discussion on it from various sects.

I am interested in knowing what other Christian denoms/Christian religions, believe regarding those who have never had a knowledge of Christ. For instance, what about someone who has died without ever even hearing about Jesus Christ? Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Many are long passed from this world.

I was looking this information up on the Internet a few days ago and I never expected to see such a diverging thought in Christianity. I am fairly well versed on what Mormons believe here and now I know what the United Church of God believes on it, as I read their statement of beliefs.

Some apologists on the net say that these souls are just lost. What say ye?

grapeseed

At the second death they will be thrown in the lake of fire

________________________________________________________________________________

________

No they wont be thrown in the lake of fire at the second death. What about innocent babies, dying at birth. What about children in India, and as grapeseed said, Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Millions who have lived and died in Tibet, central Australia, South America, what about all the millions of people who have died throughout history never having heard of Jesus Christ,or even God, at all?

One needs to read these Scriptures and get a handle on them and try and understand what Paul is stating here.

The fact is, God is no respector of persons. In other words, whether you were born a thousand years ago and never heard of Him or Jesus, He will judge you according to how you lived your life and obeyed your conscience. We can all decipher between good and evil in any century.

"For there is no respect of persons with God (Romans 2:11).

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish with-out law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

"(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these having NOT THE LAW, ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES: Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE also BEARING WITNESS, and their THOUGHTS the mean while EXCUSING ONE ANOTHER;)" (ROMANS 2:11-15).

In other words; "God will deal with every one, including the heathen, who have never heard of the gospel. He will deal with them on the basis of the light they have recieved, and on the basis of obeying their own conscience"

Haz.

It just blows me away that people don't get that.

Yes, if the above is not true, it will be standing room only in Hell. Imagine how many billions of men, women, and innocent children have died over the ages who have never ever heard of Jesus Christ let alone seen a Bible?. And also, Heaven wont be over croweded under the same circumstance.

Haz.

I am just glad to find out that faith in Christ is no longer needed, that indeed Christ is no longer needed.

Ooops maybe not:

Romans:

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

[HAZARD]

No one can be saved without Christ, babies, people who have never heard of Christ, Muslims, whoever.

The bible claims that "no one is righteous NOT ONE". That includes everybody, and without that no one will be saved, except for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Now, the problem many are having is a formula notion of faith which limits the power of Christ and limits the Holy Spirit. I have never met a small child, who having been told the Gospel of Christ even in a very very simple way, does not love Jesus and believe in Jesus. In fact Christ holds little children up as the MODELS of faith we should be. Of course Christ will save these little babies, but He will come to them and they will believe.

He came to Paul a murderous man who made it his special practice to help capture and kill Christians; certainly He can come directly to every other human being who may not have heard of Christ.

But we do know that nobody will be saved because they are good people.

________________________________________________________________________________

_____________________________

Now you are straining at the bit.

A parent who does not know Jesus or the gosple, especially one who would never even have heard of God or Jesus, or the gospel, how could they then pass on knowledge of either to their babies. We need to get real here and stop being childish about serious things. Would a Papuan Highlander, a head hunter, two thousand years ago, pass on the knowledge of God, the gosple, or Jesus Christ to his children? How about Pygmies in the Amazon about three thousand years ago?

Haz.

[Smalcald]

Just wanted to pose this question. There appears to be much discussion on it from various sects.

I am interested in knowing what other Christian denoms/Christian religions, believe regarding those who have never had a knowledge of Christ. For instance, what about someone who has died without ever even hearing about Jesus Christ? Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Many are long passed from this world.

I was looking this information up on the Internet a few days ago and I never expected to see such a diverging thought in Christianity. I am fairly well versed on what Mormons believe here and now I know what the United Church of God believes on it, as I read their statement of beliefs.

Some apologists on the net say that these souls are just lost. What say ye?

grapeseed

At the second death they will be thrown in the lake of fire

________________________________________________________________________________

________

No they wont be thrown in the lake of fire at the second death. What about innocent babies, dying at birth. What about children in India, and as grapeseed said, Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Millions who have lived and died in Tibet, central Australia, South America, what about all the millions of people who have died throughout history never having heard of Jesus Christ,or even God, at all?

One needs to read these Scriptures and get a handle on them and try and understand what Paul is stating here.

The fact is, God is no respector of persons. In other words, whether you were born a thousand years ago and never heard of Him or Jesus, He will judge you according to how you lived your life and obeyed your conscience. We can all decipher between good and evil in any century.

"For there is no respect of persons with God (Romans 2:11).

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish with-out law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

"(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these having NOT THE LAW, ARE A LAW UNTO THEMSELVES: Which shew the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE also BEARING WITNESS, and their THOUGHTS the mean while EXCUSING ONE ANOTHER;)" (ROMANS 2:11-15).

In other words; "God will deal with every one, including the heathen, who have never heard of the gospel. He will deal with them on the basis of the light they have recieved, and on the basis of obeying their own conscience"

Haz.

It just blows me away that people don't get that.

Yes, if the above is not true, it will be standing room only in Hell. Imagine how many billions of men, women, and innocent children have died over the ages who have never ever heard of Jesus Christ let alone seen a Bible?. And also, Heaven wont be over croweded under the same circumstance.

Haz.

I am just glad to find out that faith in Christ is no longer needed, that indeed Christ is no longer needed.

Ooops maybe not:

Romans:

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

[Fiosh]

Smalcald said: "What I am saying is that we have two choices, either Christ comes to these people in a way that we don't understand and saves them from their sins, or they go to hell that is it. "

There is a third possibility...perhaps God applies the saving grace of the Cross to those who never heard of Christ, in a way we do not understand.

[larryt]

Can anyone show me where in the Bible is specifically and clearly states that those who never heard of Jesus are condemned to hell???

I'm not referring to those verses that say you must "believe" or "accept"....both those terms imply that you have already heard and must now make a decision.

Anyone?

F

This is a tough question for those that do not understand ELECTION & God's Sovereignty. The book of Romans is very important to understand. Romans starts by telling us that no one is excused.

Ro 1:19