The coming Messiah

[Brad]

Dad, with all due respect, that spiritualizing of the Temple is a dangerous idea. It opens the door for the spiritualizing of Yeshua's literal return as the previous post has shown. I would like to point out that neither the prophets or Yeshua spiritualized the Word when interpreting prophecies.

They always took them as literal when it was written as literal. The ancient rabbis teach that there are 4 levels of interpretation for every verse and the application of the spiritual is the second.....after the literal.....but without a literal interpretation there are just no rules for the spiritual.

That's how the anti-christ will fool "even the elect".

To do away with the idea of the temple being Spiritualized would be to do away with the Church for the Church is the true temple of God for God does not dwell in a temple made with the hands of men. But rather God indwells people who believe in Jesus Christ and have recieved the Holy Spirit. To not spiritualize the temple is very dangerous because Satan would just love to get your mind thinking in the physical things therefore blinding you to things that are Spirit and truth.

If you think that the idea of Christ return as spiritual through His overcomers is a dangerous one. Then why does it say in Rev. 19:15 that when Christ returne that He will rule over the nations with a rod of iron, then in Rev.2:26,27 it says that they that overcome shall rule over the nations with a rod of iron.

Another question when Rev.19 speaks of the return of Jesus Christ it says that He will make war with the nations and then rule over them for a 1000 years but in 2 Peter 3:10 it says that in the day of the Lord that the earth will burn up with intense heat?

If you think that a spiritual return of Christ through overcomers in the Church is dangerous tell me this is Christ in you? And if He is and you be in Him then when Christ returns to earth will He still be in you and me and all the rest in the body of Christ.

I see it this way our bodies not not belong to us no more. Our bodies belong to God and they are a temple for the Holy Spirit who is God to indwell in our bodies. We are the physical body of Jesus Christ on the earth therefore Christ has returned and indwells us His Church.

The thing that would be dangerous would be when a man thinks that he is God that in of himself and does not give glory to Jesus Christ indwelling him. But rather claims to be Jesus Christ in that of himself. Or claiming to represent Jesus Christ on earth.

The word anti as in anti-christ not only means to be against but anti also means instead of. Vicar means to represent as in example a vice president can represent the president if the president is absent. The whole line of Popes have claimed to be the Vicar of Christ and they in a general sense ruled the world in the dark ages.

What was literal in the Church age can now be spiritual if we allow the old man of sin to take the place of Jesus Christ indwelling us. So if you what to know who the anti-christ is just look in the mirror next time you reject Jesus Christ from manifesting Himself through you.

Hey Yod I'm not trying to lay a heavy on you this message is for everyone including myself.

Peace Brother

[Guest yod]

i think you misunderstand me. I do believe in the spiritual application of these passages..but a literal interpretation. What you are espousing is called Kingdom Theology and it's appealing but dangerous. "We" can not bring in His kingdom...only He can. Things will continue to get worse (birth pangs) not better.

Will Yeshua return in any kind of physical form? Does He literally descend upon the Mount of Olives?

Are the 2 witnesses of Reveleation the Old and New Testaments (as it has been spiritualized by some SDA teachers)? Or are they 2 actual people?

I can assure you, I am very much a literalist, and sorry to say, I am worried about you.

thanks for your concern but it doesn't matter if either of us is right or wrong. The Lord will do what He will do.

If you will read Daniel 9:27 carefully, the temple will remain desolate until the consummation. Do you realize when that is? I'll let you give it some thought.

Daniel 9

27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

it says that one will make desolate....until destruction is complete. This happened once already...but the verse does not prohibit it from happening again necessarily.

Not sure where you get that thing about "until the consumation".

Then we have Naos. Please look up this word. Christ's body is Naos.

I see a double use for it. It is used for "shrines, temple, temple sanctuary, temples" as in 2 thess 2:4 and it's first usage in 2 Cor 6:16 is definitely speaking of THE Temple as it's second usage in the same verse likens us to that.

It is like using "Temple" interchangably with "Sanctuary"

If there were to be a rebuilding of the "physical temple" (Hieron), don't you think at least one of the disciples would have mentioned it since it would hold such an important place in the future of Israel?

Oh c'mon, Dad....They didn't ask about that because it had not yet been destroyed.

Again, the entire discourse of Matthew 24 was when the disciples marvelled at the Temple and He explained that not even one stone would be left upon another....they asked Him to tell them about THIS time and He did.

[Guest yod]

Naos is used as a physical shrine in these other verses too...

Ac 19:24 - [For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, was bringing no little business to the craftsmen;

Ac 17:24 - "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

Joh 2:20 - The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days ?"

This one is speaking of THE Temple we are discussing so it seems to blow a big hole in your hypothesis.

there are more examples if that ain't enough...

[Guest yod]

every mention of it in Luke using this word is speaking of the physical & literal Temple.

it seems to be a word that means "sanctuary" inside the Temple.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

You just don't get it do you? Take a look at the Greek definitions of Hieron and Naos. What the Jews want to do is to build a physical temple which they believe would be acceptable to God so that they may again perform sacrifices. But in order for this feat to be accomplished, it MUST "be according to pattern", as David told his son Solomon. The Hieron consists of the core Holy of Holies, the Holy Place, the buildings and walls and all the surrounds and all that is inside, including the priest's garbs etc.

Naos on the other hand is ONLY the Holy Place, and/or the Holy of Holies. THAT'S ALL! The Holy of Holies in the OT, is where the Shekanah Glory descended upon and presented himself to the High Priest in. This is what God has done through His Son, through the body of the church and to the individual believer. In fact, the Holy of Holies is presently in heaven, what we have on earth is the Holy Place - us/the church.

Regarding Dan 9:27, your interpretation is way off base. The Temple WAS NOT "gradually" destroyed and completely desolated at the consummation. The consummation points ONLY to the end of time.

You have not addressed the issue of the antecedent for the pronoun "he" either.

It amazes me the extent to which you and others go to support your twisted doctrine. Instead of just denying the truth, why don't you give me some scriptures to support your suppositions?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Brad]

Regarding Dan 9:27, your interpretation is way off base. The Temple WAS NOT "gradually" destroyed and completely desolated at the consummation. The consummation points ONLY to the end of time.

What I believe the abomination that makes desolate of the temple in a spiritual fulfillment that Matt.24 speaks of is this. When the Church "temple" became instatutionalized and considered a building. That caused people to focus on a building where God indwells instead of His people.

Even today we say is so and so going to church and a church usually has a abominal name on it "something that Jesus never calls His Church".

These names may have good intent but seldom do we ever live up to the names that they have been called. Not only that but if for example you call your self a baptised does that mean that you do not believe in pentecost as some people call themselves Pentecostals. Or Evangelal Free, Seventh Day Adventist, Missionary Allance and on and on it goes.

Calling ourselves any name other that what the Lord Jesus Christ called us would be saying that we have another lord. These people who have put their name tags on God's people have some amount of confusion in them.

We are to deny ourselves take up the cross and follow Jesus no some man who has an element of truth then sets up a organized religion, builds a building and then calls it a church "temple". That is what has desolated the true meaning of temple of God and has help cause Babylon to prosper.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Brad,

First, please review the following verses:

Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

Acts 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.

Acts 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.

Acts 16:40 And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.

Acts 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

Acts 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1 Corinthians 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints)

2 Timothy 1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:

Today we might call these "house churches". As you can see Jesus did not name them, and elsewhere you can find verses that refer to the "house of God". Now, I do not believe that the Judaic Temple was in view, nor do I believe that a separate building was erected to be called "the House of God". I believe that reference was to the various "bodies" collectively. Today we have such chism and division in the churches because of all the "heresies" that have caused such divisions. This will continue and get worse as time passes, but the "true House of God" can be found among brothers such as you and I and Yod who seek to understand the TRUE Word of God. The True Believers are scattered among the world and are in many DIFFERENT churches according as God has planted them. I do not take lightly the following verse:

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Please consider this verse. The white stands out against the backdrop of the black. The Light shines in the darkness and dispels it. We are not called to isolate ourselves from it, but to enter it and LET YOUR LIGHT SHINE!

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Brad]

Well said Dad Ernie. We are of those who believe in one church, one faith, one baptism, and one God the Lord Jesus christ would has made us one with Him just as Christ is one with the Father.

God Bless you all who are in the House of faith

[Guest yod]

It amazes me the extent to which you and others go to support your twisted doctrine. Instead of just denying the truth, why don't you give me some scriptures to support your suppositions?

Gee dad, there's no need to get yer panties in a knot!

I'm looking at the very same scriptures you are looking at but it says something different to me.

Naos on the other hand is ONLY the Holy Place, and/or the Holy of Holies. THAT'S ALL! The Holy of Holies in the OT, is where the Shekanah Glory descended upon and presented himself to the High Priest in. This is what God has done through His Son, through the body of the church and to the individual believer. In fact, the Holy of Holies is presently in heaven, what we have on earth is the Holy Place - us/the church.

all of that is good and fine but there is another possibility. What is a Temple without the Holy of Holies? It sure ain't the Temple. I see no reason why the Holy of Holies can't be translated as "sanctuary" and used interchangably with Temple. That is what I see in most of the verses you have given.

Regarding Dan 9:27, your interpretation is way off base. The Temple WAS NOT "gradually" destroyed and completely desolated at the consummation. The consummation points ONLY to the end of time.

Don't know where you get that either. I didn't say it would be gradual (?)

I said:

it says that one will make desolate....until destruction is complete.

I see this as having already been fulfilled once....and I'm not of the opinion that it will happen again...but there is enough room for a possibility. (am I driving you crazy yet?)

You have not addressed the issue of the antecedent for the pronoun "he" either.

Antecedant? Is that the opposite of cedant?

What antecedants?

We ain't got no antecedants....

I don't have to show you no stinkin' antecedants!!!!

[Brad]

i think you misunderstand me. I do believe in the spiritual application of these passages..but a literal interpretation. What you are espousing is called Kingdom Theology and it's appealing but dangerous. "We" can not bring in His kingdom...only He can. Things will continue to get worse (birth pangs) not better.

Will Yeshua return in any kind of physical form? Does He literally descend upon the Mount of Olives?

Are the 2 witnesses of Reveleation the Old and New Testaments (as it has been spiritualized by some SDA teachers)? Or are they 2 actual people?

Yod I agree with you about only God can bring about His Kingdom. The Kingdom Now movement think that they must bring in the Kingdom before Christ returns. But I say the Christ returns through us when we walk in the Spirit and have overcome the things of this world. Threfore it is Jesus Christ in us that brings in His Kingdom. We can not do it, His Spirit works in and through us. You have to get over this idea that we are on our own and Jesus is over somewhere else like sitting on a big white cloud waiting to return. John wrote things like that in Revelations but He was told to signify the writings in Rev.1

Act1:11 says that He will return in like manner. Or in likeness to how He left. This leaves room for a spiritual likeness just like the law in the old covenant was in likeness or pointed to the Holy Spirit as a spiritual fulfillment to the law.

As far as the two witnesses in Rev.11 SDA's do teach what you say, but I heard something that make more sense. The two witnesses being the Jewish Christian and the grafted in olive branch being the gentile Christain. These verses in Rev.11 are highly symbolic and many things have to be considered to get the ful picture of what has already happened. Many are just waiting for scripture to be fulfilled when in fact a good 90% is happening on a daily bases or has already happened in the past.

One Question who do you say Dan.9:27 is refering to Jesus Christ or the anti-christ