How old is your church?

[Guest Angeledei]

As a former Independent Fundamental Baptist - one of the MANY things that used to bother me was the tremendous number of "denominations" that are within "Protestantism". If my little Baptist church claimed to be right and true in 1)assurance of salvation; 2)NO to infant baptism; 3)KJV ONLY etc... YET, the "Bible Baptist" church up the road believed in infant baptism and that one could lose his salvation...Well I thought with ALL the denominations that are out there - who is right? THere are NOT MANY truths - there is but ONE TRUTH:

** If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded in Germany, by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Roman Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

**If you are a Mennonite, your church began in Switzerland, by Grebel, Mantz, and Blaurock, in the year 1525.

**If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in 1534, because the Pope could not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

**If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox, in Scotland, in the year 1560.

**If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown, in Holland, in 1583.

**If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam, in 1606.

**If you are a Unitarian, your religion was founded in London, by John Biddle, in 1645.

**If you are an Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England, founded by Samuel Seabury in the American Colonies in the 17th century.

**If you are a Quaker, your religion was founded by George Fox, in England, in 1647.

**If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley, in England, in 1739.

**If you are a Universalist, John Murray founded your religion in New Jersey, in 1770.

**If you are an Evangelical, you owe the founding of your religion to Jacob Albright, in Pennsylvania, in 1803.

**If you are a Mormon, a "Latter Day Saint," then Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, New York, in 1829.

**If you are a Seventh Day Adventist, your religion originated in New York, by William Miller, in 1831.

**If you worship with the Salvation Army sect, then you acknowledge William Booth in London as your originator, in 1865.

**If you are a Jehovah Witness, then your church was founded by Charles Taze Russell, in 1872, as the "Millennial Dawnists." In 1931, Judge Rutherford, his successor, decided that henceforth they would be called, Witnesses of Jehovah, or Jehovah Witness.

**If you are a Christian Scientist, then Mary Baker Eddy founded your religion in Massachusetts, in 1879.

**If you belong to the Assembly of God religion, then a General Assembly in Arkansas started it in 1914.

**If you claim the Church of the Nazarene as your religion, then Union at General Assembly launched it in 1919.

**If you are an Evangelical Reformed, then Union at General Assembly created it in 1934.

**If you belong to "Pentecostal Gospel," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men in the last 100 years.

**If you are a Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Our Lord Jesus Christ; the One True Faith, ". . . outside of which no one at all can be saved."

I am not trying to slam anyone because I, too, have come from protestantism and spent 10 years as a Baptist Fundamentalist. As a Baptist I NEVER gave any thought as to where my "denomination" came from or even how long it had been around....

Just something to think about.

[Ovedya]

Here's something else to think about: The church is the Body of Christ, composed of many members, joined by the life of Christ into one new man, and being transformed and conformed to the image of God's Son, consumating in a glorified city, the New Jerusalam, the Bride of Christ for eternity.

The church, my friend, is as old as the Lord's death upon the cross. Denominations account for 100% of nothing with respect to the reality of who we are and in Whom we are.

Much grace,

~G

P.S. Jesus never founded a religion....how silly

[Ovedya]

...Another minor point here.

Age does not the ONE TRUE CHURCH make. In fact, "one true church" is a complete myth.

[irishcowboy]

as the denominations were formed ( such as the Assemblies of God ) there are churches of that "denomination" that are even older...... as for the Assemblies, the oldest church and still active is 100 years old this year. was started when revival hit the area, of Galena Kansas. a mining town, with street preachers and all, healings and all sorts of neat things happening.....

the General assembly is in Arkansas, to pull together individual churches.....

Church history is neat, but is church history where we are suppose to have our focus????

what happened in the past, what we have accomplished in the past, is in the past.... what are we doing now? today? what are we doing for God this very minute?

today is what we are to be concentrating on, what are we doing for Christ Jesus this day? how are we wittnessing God this day? how are we sharing His Glorious Word, His Glorious Works? how are we bringing people to God, so that they may learn of the gift of Salvation thru Jesus Christ.....

I know what I am doing, I know where I am going, and I know what God has me doing this day...... yesterday is gone, never was, tomorrow never will be, all we have is the here and now.....

mike

[Ovedya]

IT'S ALL GONNA BURN ANYWAY, SAINTS!!!

[Catsmeow]

Angel, honey...I'm not wanting to hurt your feelings. I'm really not. My heart breaks for you. I was once where you are now...and it's bondage - bondage to "religion".

It shows by the very question you ask.

It's not about RELIGION. It's not about the Pope. It's not about how old the Church is. It's not about nuns/priests. It's not about lovely cathedrals. It's not about you. It's not about me. It's not about God-man. It's not about Mike. It's not about church functions, bingo, church socials, rituals, church tradition, catechism or anything else.

Hon, you're missing the big picture here. It's not about US.

It's all about JESUS CHRIST...not about us. He's the One who shed His holy blood for humanity. He's the only One worthy of our adoration.

How old is the church? WHO CARES?! It's not about US... the Church, the Pope or anyone else.... Don't you see? Dear friend, you've taken the bait. You bought the lie. It's not about us...Catholic or otherwise.

You're sound like a child at play, "Na, na, na, na, na...my religion's better than your's is..." Is that what really matters to you?

It's not "religion" that counts...it's relationship with the Savior of Humanity that matters. His name is Jesus...not Mary, not Saint "so-n-so"...not Pope "so-n-so"...

It's Jesus Christ! Angel, get into relationship with Him! He's what matters...not us. Not "religion".

It's all just smoke and mirrors. What counts is Jesus Christ. The rest is of no avail.

[Guest Angeledei]

What is your most important business in this life?

It is to save your soul. This is the one thing necessary (Luke 10:42). "What shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" says Our Blessed Saviour (Mark 8:36).

What must you do to save your soul?

You must follow the One True Church taught by Christ. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6). "Go ye into all the world," He said to His Apostles, "and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not, shall be condemned" (Mark 16:15, 16).

How many religions did Christ teach?

Most certainly only one, for this plain reason, that He cannot contradict Himself. "There shall be one Fold and one Shepherd," He says (John 10:16). And Saint Paul tells us, that there is "one Lord" and "one Faith" (Ephesians 4:5).

What, therefore, is to be thought of the many religions in this country?

As Our Saviour taught but one religion, it must follow that all these religions are false religions, except one, wherever that is. Hence Saint Paul says in his Epistle to the Galatians 1:8, "Though we or an angel from Heaven, preach any other Gospel to you than that which we have preached, let him be anathema."

Is it not very uncharitable to say that all religions are false except one?

It is not more uncharitable than to point out the right road to you when you are on a journey, and to tell you that all other roads will lead you astray.

But are you not safe in following the religion in which you happen to be born?

From what you have been reading, it is clear as noonday, that you are not safe in following the religion you are born in, unless it be the one True Religion which Christ taught.

What, then, are you to do?

You must strive to find out whether the religion you are born in be the one True Religion or not; and if it be not, you must leave it, and go to the True Religion.

But how are you to find out the True Church?

You must truly and heartily repent of all the sins you have committed; you must have no other wish than to learn the Will of God and to do it; you must be resolved that neither persecutions, nor losses, nor worldly interest, nor anything else whatsoever, shall prevent you from doing the Will of God, when you know what that Will is; and you must often pray that He will teach you His holy Will, saying, Lord, what wilt Thou have me to do?" (Acts 9:6). If you will follow this advice, you may be sure that God will hear your prayer, and lead you into the right way, for He promises to give His Holy Spirit to those who ask Him (Luke 11:13; Matthew 7:7,8).

You should also look about you, and inquire which is the one True Religion. You will find, in the New Testament, that Christ established a Church upon the earth; that He built it upon a rock, and declared that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18); you will find that He gave to this Church authority to teach His religion, and commanded all to hear and obey it (Matthew 18:17; Luke 10:16; Act 9:6,7; 10:5,6). You will find that this Church cannot teach error, being " the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Timothy 3:15); and that by following what it teaches, you will be freed from all doubt and perplexity about the way to Heaven, and will no longer be tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:11-15). You will find, in short, that you will be as sure of learning the religion of Christ from this Church, as if you heard Him speaking to you Himself (Luke 10:16; II Corinthians 5:20; John 14:16, 16:13).

Such is the Church which Christ Our Lord established upon the earth, with a living, speaking, and unerring authority to teach you the way to Heaven; and this, therefore, is the Church which you must endeavor to find.

A little more examination will discover to you that this Church is no other than that which you often truly say was the first, and will be the last; and which all Christians say they believe when they repeat the Apostles

[Catsmeow]

You must follow the One True Church taught by Christ. (Jesus, not the church) He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6). "Go ye into all the world," He said to His Apostles, "and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not, shall be condemned" (Mark 16:15, 16).

You gave a reference to following the Truth, (Jesus Christ) NOT the church.

The Bible NEVER tells us to follow the Church! Heaven forbid that we follow man!

You have taken scriptures and folded them into something bizarre.

They NEVER say follow the church. They say to follow Christ. Not the church.

You are so "mind-controlled" by the doctrines you've had beaten into you, you can't see the Truth.

It's NOT about the Church! It's about Jesus Christ.

You can't see the Truth because you've never fallen in love with Christ Jesus...You've given yourself to a "religion" that takes bits and pieces of holy writ and wrenches them out of context.

I've given you the truth. I'm not arguing with you. If you want to worship a religion, please go ahead. Your choice.

[Catsmeow]

Such is the Church which Christ Our Lord established upon the earth, with a living, speaking, and unerring authority to teach you the way to Heaven; and this, therefore, is the Church which you must endeavor to find.

Um, friend...is this the same Church with unerring authority whereby Cardinals cover up the seduction of children and vile seductions on such a GRAND SCALE as to warrant the investigation of literally hundreds of priests?

Is that what you're banking your eternal salvation on?

I'll stick with Jesus Christ, thanks....not some "Good Ol' Boys Club" that goes around covering each other's dirt.

I don't put my faith in ANY "Church" denomination. I put my faith in Jesus Christ ALONE!

[Guest Angeledei]

You are so "mind-controlled" by the doctrines you've had beaten into you, you can't see the Truth.

LOL! This is exactly how I felt when I left fundamentalism!! I felt like I had been brainwashed by errors.

Um, friend...is this the same Church with unerring authority whereby Cardinals cover up the seduction of children and vile seductions on such a GRAND SCALE as to warrant the investigation of literally hundreds of priests?

LOL again! I was wondering when that would come up

We all know this is an unfair statement because the Church is made up of sinful men. Where the Church cannot err is in matter of faith and morals. MAN CAN AND DOES SIN! Take a look at Jim Bakker! Does this make Protestantism as a whole as evil as he? No! This is an empire he built and MANY fell because of many sins. This should not reflect on the whole of Protestantism. I could give numerous examples but it is beside the point.

No one grieves more for what has happened to Christ's Holy Church than the Catholic faithful! It was horrendous and NO EXCUSE can ever be made. These Bishops will have to answer to their Maker someday, God help them!

You should know that Jesus DID establish a teaching AUTHORITY in the CHURCH and that Church WAS established by Jesus Christ Himself when He gave St. Peter the keys and called Him the ROCK!

Mark 3:16; John 1:42 - Simon is renamed "Kepha" in Aramaic by Jesus which literally means "rock." This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because "rock" was not even a name in Jesus' time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person's name, he changes their status.

Gen. 17:5; 32:28; 2 Kings 23:34 - for example, in these verses, we see that God changes the following people's names and, as a result, they become special agents of God: Abram to Abraham; Jacob to Israel, Eliakim to Jehoiakim.

2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 - in these verses, God is also called "rock." Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is the only foundation / Eph. 2:20 - the apostles are the foundation. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek translation of rock is "Petros," and petra means "a small rock" in Greek, Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him, by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus' blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used "Kepha, " not "evna." Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter. Moreover, if the translator wanted to identify Peter as the "small rock," he would have used "lithos" which means a little pebble in Greek. Finally, Petros and petra were synonyms at the time the Gospel was written, so any attempt to distinguish the two words is inconsequential. Thus, Jesus called Peter the massive rock, not the little pebble, on which He would build the Church.

Matt. 16:17 - to further demonstrate that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, Jesus says Simon "Bar-Jona." The use of "Bar-Jona" proves that Jesus was speaking Aramaic. In Aramaic, "Bar" means son, and "Jonah" means John or dove (Holy Spirit).

Matt 27:46; Mark 15:34 - this is another example of Jesus speaking Aramaic as He utters in rabbinical fashion the first verse of Psalm 22 declaring that He is the Christ, the Messiah. This shows that Jesus was indeed speaking Aramaic, as the Jewish people did at that time.

Matt. 16:18 - also, in quoting "on this rock," the Scriptures use the word "taute" which means on "this" rock; on "this same" rock; or on "this very" rock. "Taute" is a demonstrative adjective in Greek, which proves that Peter (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) is the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church.

Matt. 16:18-19 - in addition, to argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter's leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter - you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven (not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom).

Matt. 16:17 - to further rebut the notion that Jesus was calling Peter a small pebble, Simon in Aramaic means "grain of sand." If Simon's name meant "grain of sand," it would be pointless for Jesus to change his name from "grain of sand" to "pebble."

Matt. 16:13 - also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built.

Matt. 7:24 - Jesus, like the wise man, builds His house on the rock (Peter), not on grain of sand (Simon) so the house will not fall.

Luke 6:48 - the house (the Church) built upon the rock (Peter) cannot be shaken by floods (which represent the heresies, schisms, and scandals that the Church has faced over the last 2,000 years). Floods have occurred, but the Church still remains on its solid rock foundation.

Matt. 16:21 - it is also important to note that it was only after Jesus established Peter as leader of the Church that He began to speak of His death and departure. This is because Jesus had now appointed His representative on earth.

John 21:15 - Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," referring to the other apostles. Jesus singles Peter out as the leader of the apostolic college.

John 21:15-17 - Jesus selects Peter to be the chief shepherd of the apostles when He says to Peter, "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep."

Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus also prays that Peter's faith may not fail and charges Peter to be the one to strengthen the other apostles - "Simon, satan demanded to have you (plural, referring to all the apostles) to sift you (plural) like wheat, but I prayed for you (singular) that your (singular) faith may not fail, and when you (singular) have turned again, strengthen your brethren.

Acts 1,2,3,4,5,8,15 - no one questions Peter's authority to speak for the Church, declare anathemas, and resolve doctrinal debates.