Magic

[secondeve]

This is an interesting side-note which cropped up in a topic I started in the Outer Court:

The reason God hates witchcraft and the casting of spells is that these things are real and can do a lot of damage. The spells are not the problem, but the unclean spirits involved in them can be nasty.

This is one of the things that I find strangest about Christianity - that you believe magic is real. I just don't get it. If magic is abhorrent to God, why is it in the world, waiting to be used? Why create men with the power to be sorcerers if you don't like it? Or, if men draw their power from the world, why allow that power to be there in the first place? The Genesis description of the curses on man after the Fall mention nothing about it allowing magic out into the world.

I don't believe there is any real magic. Neo-pagans use rituals, but this is, as far as I can tell, more for symbolic purposes and maybe some kind of ritual "cleansing" than Buffy the Vampire Slayer kind of flashy, bright-lights-and-ancient-goddesses type witchery. If I think about it, this is one of the commands which makes me most skeptical of the Bible. God created the world. If he didn't want man to use magic, why create magic or beings with the ability to wield it? As far as I believe, this commandment got caught up in the Bible because people in the time when it was written were superstitious and did believe in things like the evil eye, not because magic was ever real.

And if all dead folk go to either Heaven or Hell, just where do 'spirits' come into it, anyway? Are they demons or angels? They must be one or other, because I can't see how Christian theology allows for them to be anything else.

As explained above, this idea of 'magic' has always confused me. What can people tell me about why God allowed magic to be in the world if it is abhorrent to him, or why men can wield it if he wants us not to be magicians; what activities 'count' as magic; and what 'spirits,' which I've heard more than one person refer to, are - angels, demons, or energy?

[Adarian]

There are "The Sons of God", being angels who watched the Lord make the earth. When Satan, the highest of all the angels became filled with pride and rebelled against God, he took one third of all the host of heaven with him into rebellion. Having abandoned their heavenly home, Satan and his angels became what we call demons, which are unclean spirits or fallen angels. When people die, they are sent either to heaven or hell, and cannot return to the earth, so all spirits/ghosts are unclean spirits unless you are fortunate enough to be sent a righteous, or obedient, angel by God. Magic is a fallacy and a deception, as all the results of so called witchcraft and sorcery are the actions of these unclean spirits, and not at all of any power conjured up by magicians, spell casters, witches, warlocks, prognosticators and any others who believe they lay claim to magic. Men have no access to any power at all which could be seen as real magic. All of the power is demonic, not magic. Involvement with any such activity is utterly dangerous as any participants are consorting with demons, whose only purpose connected to men is to steal, kill, and destroy, mostly by way of deception, which they are very very good at.

[secondeve]

There are "The Sons of God", being angels who watched the Lord make the earth. When Satan, the highest of all the angels became filled with pride and rebelled against God, he took one third of all the host of heaven with him into rebellion. Having abandoned their heavenly home, Satan and his angels became what we call demons, which are unclean spirits or fallen angels. When people die, they are sent either to heaven or hell, and cannot return to the earth, so all spirits/ghosts are unclean spirits unless you are fortunate enough to be sent a righteous, or obedient, angel by God. Magic is a fallacy and a deception, as all the results of so called witchcraft and sorcery are the actions of these unclean spirits, and not at all of any power conjured up by magicians, spell casters, witches, warlocks, prognosticators and any others who believe they lay claim to magic. Men have no access to any power at all which could be seen as real magic. All of the power is demonic, not magic. Involvement with any such activity is utterly dangerous as any participants are consorting with demons, whose only purpose connected to men is to steal, kill, and destroy, mostly by way of deception, which they are very very good at.

Ah, right, now this explains a little more. Spirits are demons, or demonic forces - this is what was confusing me most, as the word 'spirit' is one I usually interpret to mean 'ghost.'

So - there is no real magic, only demons convincing people that there is, and doing harm through their attempts to wield it. Yes?

If this is the case, then I wonder again at the venom many Christians hold for fantasy stories. Clearly, such stories are set in hypothetical worlds where magic in the traditional, non-demon-inspired sense, exists. Christian parents could easily tell their children the difference between their opinion of demon-power-magic and what they were reading about or seeing, just the same as every parent can tell a child the difference between a horse, which does exist, and a unicorn, which looks very similar to a horse but which is a separate, fantastic creature.

[aftwine]

There are "The Sons of God", being angels who watched the Lord make the earth. When Satan, the highest of all the angels became filled with pride and rebelled against God, he took one third of all the host of heaven with him into rebellion. Having abandoned their heavenly home, Satan and his angels became what we call demons, which are unclean spirits or fallen angels. When people die, they are sent either to heaven or hell, and cannot return to the earth, so all spirits/ghosts are unclean spirits unless you are fortunate enough to be sent a righteous, or obedient, angel by God. Magic is a fallacy and a deception, as all the results of so called witchcraft and sorcery are the actions of these unclean spirits, and not at all of any power conjured up by magicians, spell casters, witches, warlocks, prognosticators and any others who believe they lay claim to magic. Men have no access to any power at all which could be seen as real magic. All of the power is demonic, not magic. Involvement with any such activity is utterly dangerous as any participants are consorting with demons, whose only purpose connected to men is to steal, kill, and destroy, mostly by way of deception, which they are very very good at.

Ah, right, now this explains a little more. Spirits are demons, or demonic forces - this is what was confusing me most, as the word 'spirit' is one I usually interpret to mean 'ghost.'

So - there is no real magic, only demons convincing people that there is, and doing harm through their attempts to wield it. Yes?

If this is the case, then I wonder again at the venom many Christians hold for fantasy stories. Clearly, such stories are set in hypothetical worlds where magic in the traditional, non-demon-inspired sense, exists. Christian parents could easily tell their children the difference between their opinion of demon-power-magic and what they were reading about or seeing, just the same as every parent can tell a child the difference between a horse, which does exist, and a unicorn, which looks very similar to a horse but which is a separate, fantastic creature.

Eve you tell your child please don't touch the stove while it's on because it will burn you. Your child knows that the stove may burn him but does not have the expierence to prove to him that it really is hot.

You tell your child that magic is make-believe, fake non-fiction stories like HP and expect them to understand. They may know that it is fake and that it is not right before God but have they expierenced it and known they made a mistake.

This can also be applied to pre-marital sex, alcohol, pretty much any sin..........it also can be used for you as well.

We can tell you day and night "Eve!, God does love you and He is very real" you may "know" of the idea but you really have not expierenced Him and so therefore your lost to the notion.

That is why parents who are chritians choose to guard there children on certain issues.

[crab3]

Hey guys,

Its not so much the fact that they are 'using magic,' but that they are trusting something not God, ('spirits'), to do something not of God ('magic'), its all fairy tale though and I agree with the demon explanation above.

Cosider ISA 30, just replace Egypt and Pharoah with 'spirits' and 'magic,' it basically is a warning about not trusting God........

peace

crabs><>

[Artemus Prime]

"Ah, right, now this explains a little more. Spirits are demons, or demonic forces - this is what was confusing me most, as the word 'spirit' is one I usually interpret to mean 'ghost.'

So - there is no real magic, only demons convincing people that there is, and doing harm through their attempts to wield it. Yes?

If this is the case, then I wonder again at the venom many Christians hold for fantasy stories. Clearly, such stories are set in hypothetical worlds where magic in the traditional, non-demon-inspired sense, exists. Christian parents could easily tell their children the difference between their opinion of demon-power-magic and what they were reading about or seeing, just the same as every parent can tell a child the difference between a horse, which does exist, and a unicorn, which looks very similar to a horse but which is a separate, fantastic creature." --secondeve, from Oct. 5, 1:30 AM

I would have to agree with eve on this one, actually. Very well-put, btw.

[Prodigalson123]

I don't believe that there is no "magic" The comment earlier about not trusting God is accurate, but really the question about why would God invent this if not allowed to use it is the basis of the comments. If you take the opinion that God wouldn't invent something that He doesn't allow to be misused, then alcohol, wine, sex, food, emotions, faith are all in that category. If we as Christians believe the Bible is true, then Pharoah's magicians must be accurate when described that they did magical things, and then we must believe revalation when it says anti-christ's false prophets will do signs and wonders. Magic is the manipulation of natural forces to supernatural results. The Bible is replete with supernatural occurences, why would it be such a stretch to say that satan, his minions et al are able to imitate the supernatural occurences that God does, just like the reference to pharoah's magicians did back then?

Edited October 5, 2006 by Prodigalson123

[secondeve]

I don't believe that there is no "magic" The comment earlier about not trusting God is accurate, but really the question about why would God invent this if not allowed to use it is the basis of the comments. If you take the opinion that God wouldn't invent something that He doesn't allow to be misused, then alcohol, wine, sex, food, emotions, faith are all in that category. If we as Christians believe the Bible is true, then Pharoah's magicians must be accurate when described that they did magical things, and then we must believe revalation when it says anti-christ's false prophets will do signs and wonders. Magic is the manipulation of natural forces to supernatural results. The Bible is replete with supernatural occurences, why would it be such a stretch to say that satan, his minions et al are able to imitate the supernatural occurences that God does, just like the reference to pharoah's magicians did back then?

Magic, if it exists, is different to alchohol and things which men made. It would be an innate part of the world, not somthing created out of it like cars or buildings. So if magic was always there, why create a human being who is able to manipulate natural forces into the supernatural?

[Prodigalson123]

I don't believe that there is no "magic" The comment earlier about not trusting God is accurate, but really the question about why would God invent this if not allowed to use it is the basis of the comments. If you take the opinion that God wouldn't invent something that He doesn't allow to be misused, then alcohol, wine, sex, food, emotions, faith are all in that category. If we as Christians believe the Bible is true, then Pharoah's magicians must be accurate when described that they did magical things, and then we must believe revalation when it says anti-christ's false prophets will do signs and wonders. Magic is the manipulation of natural forces to supernatural results. The Bible is replete with supernatural occurences, why would it be such a stretch to say that satan, his minions et al are able to imitate the supernatural occurences that God does, just like the reference to pharoah's magicians did back then?

Magic, if it exists, is different to alchohol and things which men made. It would be an innate part of the world, not somthing created out of it like cars or buildings. So if magic was always there, why create a human being who is able to manipulate natural forces into the supernatural?

God allows us to decide what we are going to do, and where we are going to spend eternity. If the docrtine was that God created us but didn't allow us to sin, then the complaint would be that He should give us free will. Is it really a stretch to say that God allows us the ability to decide whether to sin or not, regardless of the vehicle. There are those that are drawn to the occult, there are those who are drawn to reality altering substances, there are those drawn to elevating ourselves to primary status in our worlds, all are sins

[crab3]

I talked with a preacher once who lives near a privately owned feild where once a year there is a witches convention, he says the music is so loud it thumps in his house, and its a good 3/4 miles away. He was talking about the music, and the question come up, if he believed that magic is a viable possibility. The only answer he would make is that he believes that Satan is capable of much, and that the danger isn't in the magic itself, or the spells or whatever, but the fact that they are not of God. When people get wrapped up in this stuff, they start saying yes to the world, and no to God. Look at ISA 30, after Israel trusts in the shadow of Egypt and pharoah, soon enough, they ask the prophets to lie to them, and ask the seers to see not, to finish up the request that 'the holy one of Israel cease from before them.'

Its scary buisness, moving away from God....

peace

crabs><>