Retrobyter Posted July 11, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 41 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,621 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,460 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Shalom, my new friends. I believe wholeheartedly that once a person is justified by God, that person remains justified by God. It's not about one's sins; God justified us "while we were yet sinners." In fact, to qualify for God's justification, you must first BE a sinner. God did not justify the Parush (the Pharisee); He justified the turncoat, Jewish tax-collector for the Romans (the publican)! Now, there are some SIGNIFICANT problems with the posts that I have read so far. First of all and of primary importance is that "salvation," more often than not, in Scriptures refers to the "rescue" of the Jews by the Messiah when He returns. Now, we who are grafted into the "olive branch," or who now participate in the commonwealth of Isra'el, may be included in the remnant who are rescued, but seldom does the word "salvation" refer to the justification of God. This is to what the phrase "salvation is of the Jews" is referring. Next, dichotomous thinking is very DANGEROUS! It allows for no middle ground. Asking "Do you believe in OSAS?" expecting a "Yes" or a "No," pits Christians against Christians. It's divisive and does more to tear down than to build up. We need to understand that, when it comes to God and theology, "let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar!" (Rom. 3:4) We need to be able to accept that there is a HUGE possibility that we are ALL wrong! Because of the above statements, technically I do not believe in OSAS, but I most emphatically DO believe in OJAJ! As I was beginning to say, the justification of a person by God does not depend on how bad a sinner that person is. It does not depend on how many sins that person has committed. It does not depend on any good works that person may or may not have done, and it does not depend on whether he or she has kept God's commandments! It all depends simply on whether that person has come to an end of himself or herself and realizes that there is NOTHING good in him or her to merit God's mercy or His grace. When he or she "throws himself or herself on the mercy of the court," then God takes over and it depends on HIM whether and when He will justify that person. Beside these points, there are other lesser points to make: Stop using Matthew 13 parables as though they apply to this age. They do not; they apply to the Kingdom age to come. All of the parables, with the exception of the parable of the sower, are yet to be realized in the future Kingdom of (or from) God. Even the parable of the sower, although it does refer to this age, is STILL talking about the message of the KINGDOM! It's not talking about "the church"; it's not talking about "the body of Christ." It's talking about the promised Kingdom to Isra'el which the Messiah will bring with Him when He comes because He is the very EMBODIMENT of the Kingdom! No King; no Kingdom. Another point: You do realize that "Christ" is an English transliteration of the Greek word "Christos," which in turn, is a translation of the Hebrew word "Mashiach?" Both words, "Christos" and "Mashiach" mean "anointed" or "rubbed" as with the holy anointing oil found in Exodus (Sh'mot) 30:22-33. "Messiah" is an English transliteration of the Hebrew word "Mashiach." If the Kingdom is to Isra'el to fulfill all prophecy, Jesus (Yeshua`) "preached" (heralded) the good news about the Kingdom as did His forerunner, John the Baptist (Yochanan the Immerser), and taught His students (disciples; talmidim) to do the same, punctuating it with the power of God, His Father, to validate the message, then how is it that "the judgment seat (bema) of the Messiah" is "ONLY for the Christians?!!!" Don't you realize that arbitration is a primary role of a king? This "judgment seat of Christ" won't just be for seven years nor will it be in "heaven." The "judgment seat of the Messiah" will exist throughout His reign, particularly in the first thousand years of His reign. It will exist in Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) in Isra'el, and it will be first and foremost for the Jews and THEN for any Gentiles (Goyim) who may have been grafted with them into the Olive Tree of Isra'el. Retrobyter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted July 11, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2007 Look at what I said about Judas Iscariot from a different topic. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Look what god showed me while I was reading the bible!! I seriously think it's a possibility god wanted me to tell you this. In this verse, Jesus is praying about his disciples. While I was with (the disciples) in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17 : 12 (NKJV) ...and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Jesus said himself that Judas was lost, but only so the scripture would be fulfilled. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judas was a disciple (he was saved), we all know that. Yet, Jesus said he was lost, he was the only disciple that didn't go to heaven. Why? Because he backslid. Despite all that I've said, though, I beleive Paul in one of his letters said that we didn't need to worry about topics like this. As long as we were close to Jesus (had Jesus in our hearts), that's all we really needed to worry about. Don't let these debates confuse you and separate you from god as it did to me. I was confused, and I paid more attention to these debates, looking for answers, instead of paying attention to god (which was completely foolish of me!!). he was never saved. this is confirmed by the last thing Jesus said to Judas. If you wouldn't mind, please give me the book, chapter and verse for the part you're talking about. I understand, though, if you don't have the book, chapter, or verse for it. Usually, I don't know where the things are that I type about, but I do know it's in there. And what about this? Matthew 26:50 do you want me to type it out for you too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted July 11, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2007 Why is Matthew 26:50 related to this discussion. I am missing something. Death is claiming Judas was saved. what scripture gave him that impression is not known? however, i am providing scripture that claims that Judas was never saved. it's actually the nail in the coffin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lnj Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 I wonder if lifestyles and life choices would rapidly change if it was not - once saved always saved. The Shepherd calls His sheep and the Shepherd knows them by name and the sheep know His voice and follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted July 11, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2007 The above post was merged into this topic from a separate post on OSAS in another forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted July 11, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2007 I wonder if lifestyles and life choices would rapidly change if it was not - once saved always saved. The Shepherd calls His sheep and the Shepherd knows them by name and the sheep know His voice and follow. I never understood why people tie in lifechanges and lifestyle with salvation. are we to expect people to become "good" after they are saved? yes to an extent however I know plenty of extraordinary atheists, outstanding muslim community people, and loving buddhist. Some of these people behave a lot better than condeming Christians that walk around with their noses in the air. But somehow Christians preach that salvation is determined by behavior and judgement? Then when you behave bad and go into the world you are unsaved? hey...whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lnj Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 I for one do NOT strut with my nose in the air...I leave that for others..but if one is connected to the Vine and surely to goodness, when saved, then these fruits are apparent and NOT overnight might I add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted July 11, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 11, 2007 I for one do NOT strut with my nose in the air...I leave that for others..but if one is connected to the Vine and surely to goodness, when saved, then these fruits are apparent and NOT overnight might I add. looking out for others is one thing and not allowing for misbehavior in a church is fine. However, I am not going to tell someone they are not saved any longer. I am not going to tell someone that because they are not meeting God's level of expectations that they are going to hell (again). God (or Christ) can handle things on His own and doesnt need me to go around pointing fingers. He defintely doesn't want me to go around preaching "unsalvation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lnj Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Yes agreed, we would be vile to announce whether one is saved or not. That position is for Jesus alone, but Salvation does bear fruit..if not..why bother? Sin away and what the hey!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew4:4 Posted July 11, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 117 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/03/1986 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Matthew 4:4, Sorry I wasnt very clear but yes I do believe faith grants eternal life. What I was trying to say is that if you truly believe in your heart then you are saved and in addition you want to follow the teachings of the Bible. After you come to believe Christ comes into your life and changes you. So a person who truly is saved won't end up losing salvation. We do fall time to time but God will not let anything take us away from Him. I hope thats more clear. Your brother in Christ, matthew I would like to persue this topic with you. What leads you to believe that faith grants eternal life? A corrollary question to that is, do you believe that all shall be raised in the last day to stand judgement? Ok. Look it all comes down to the scriptures. What is it that Jesus constantly teaches? He says "If you believe in me,(the son) you shall have eternal life." Thats all it takes plus look at what paul says in Galatians 2:16. "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ...for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." Today I just completed reading all of the gospel through and after doing that you can see that Jesus's main point was to believe in Him. Look, I cant judge anyone but I don't believe any of those pharisees who had Him killed are going to heaven. Anyone can do good works, christian or atheist but those who believe in Christ want to do good works so they do. It becomes part of their nature, something in our hearts because we put on Christ. I believe like Martin Luther did that certainty found in faith leads to the performance of good works- by all true christians. Luther once said, "Good works do not make a man good, but a good man does good works." Now tell me if that doesn't make sense but to me it seems very accurate. Another good example is Luke 12:8 "Also I say to you, whoever confesses me before men, him the son of Man also will confess before the angels of God." Confessing our belief makes us known to God. If you are known then you will end up in heaven with our heavenly Father. But basically what I'm saying is that its impossible for someone who truly believes in Christ as their Lord and Savior to not do good works. Anyway, let me know what you think. Your brother in Christ, matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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