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Retrobyter

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Retrobyter last won the day on December 14 2013

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About Retrobyter

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  1. Shalom, douggg. Nice piece of fiction, but as I've said in other threads, Daniel 9:26 does NOT talk about the "antiChrist." Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV) 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, (1) to finish the transgression, and (2) to make an end of sins, and (3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and (4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and (5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and (6) to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven (7) weeks, and threescore and two (3 x 20 + 2 = 60 + 2 = 62) weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And (1) he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and (2) in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and (3) for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. In English, you will only find the "prince that shall come" as a CLAUSE WITHIN A PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE! As such, it cannot participate in the sentence with the main verbs! In Hebrew, this is also true because the "prince" is a subordinate noun in a noun construct state! That's why it is translated with an "of" between the nouns, before the word "nagiyd," translated "prince!" Also, in Hebrew, the sentence doesn't end in verse 26. It continues into verse 27! Therefore, the verbs that IMPLY the translation with the word "he" in verse 27 refer back to "Messiah" in verse 26, NOT to the "prince!"
  2. Shalom, Da Puppers. Nope. Although you'd like to believe that, it's just not true. I do NOT "esteem the mere writings of men to be the words of God," and you need to be careful what you assert! God is watching and taking notes! On the other hand, the FULFILLMENT of Scriptural prophecy does NOT have to be found in Scripture! Think about it: All of God's prophecies (written down by HUMAN prophets, btw), OT and NT, are completely written, and the Scriptures have been CLOSED! There are no more additions to the Scriptures. HOWEVER, there are still "open prophecies"; that is, prophecies that have NOT been fulfilled, yet. So, when they ARE fulfilled in the future, there will be NO Scripture written about it! These fulfillments will be recorded by human historians! That's NOT a bad thing! Most historians are as truthful as they can be from their point of view. Even if the history record is erroneous, one can always "consider the source," and "read the truth between the lines!" Case in point: Josephus. He was a Helenized Jew who translated and recorded history for the Romans in the 60s A.D. He sympathized with the Jews, but he couldn't show support for them. He couldn't intercede for them! All he could do was write down what he saw and experienced. He could leave for us his eye-witness account, and his words are among those who wrote about the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. You quote Luke 21:22. Have you asked yourself WHOSE "vengeance?" Luke 21:20-24 (KJV) 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it (Jerusalem) depart out; and let not them that are in the countries (the fields) enter thereinto (into Jerusalem). 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written (about Jerusalem's destruction) may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people (the children of Israel, especially the Jews - the children of Yhudah). 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. We are IN those "times of the Gentiles" today! This is Yeshua`s ("Jesus'") prophecy (hence the red letters) against His OWN people! You don't think He shed a tear or two for them?! He had to pronounce them "DESOLATE" just a chapter before! They CRUCIFIED Him soon after this prophecy! He was BURIED in a tomb! He would ARISE FROM THE DEAD and walk once more among them (although most probably didn't recognize Him anymore than His own disciples did), and He was transported off-world before they could finish "counting the omer!" He KNEW they were about to enter these "days of vengeance," and loved them anyway; however, they had made their choice! He had to obey His Father, but it was His FATHER'S vengeance they would suffer for REJECTING AND CRUCIFYING HIS SON! It was GOD'S "wrath upon this people!" If you think this passage is about a near-future event for us, ask yourself a series of questions: What good would "fleeing to the mountains" do today? With our drones and infrared cameras searching for "heat signatures," what good would it do? So they leave Jerusalem, so what? With air surveillance, snipers, and ATVs as well as motorcycles, what makes you think that would help them to get away? Ask yourself who uses swords anymore? Why single out "pregnant women" and "nursing women" as being especially vulnerable? They would have the greatest advantage in today's warfare! Almost all countries adhere to the Geneva Convention's rules of warfare and prisoner treatment! No, this was all about the FIRST CENTURY and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, and the diaspora of the Jews.
  3. Shalom, Da Puppers. Interesting. How do you distinguish between "prophetic writing" and "prophetic SCRIPTURE?" Are you saying that the word "Scripture" is exclusive for the 66 canonical works that have been lumped together and called "the Bible?" For me, a passage of Scripture, a "writing," is ONLY "prophetic" IF and WHEN the passage contains the statement of a PROPHECY! The fulfillment of a prophecy is NOT "prophecy" itself! I think you're still hung up on 1 and 2 Maccabees. It is commonly agreed (and I agree, too) that they are NOT canonical (and the RCC holds them to be "deuterocanonical"). They are not "the Word of God"; they are simply HISTORICAL documents! I don't know for sure, but the way you DISREGARD them suggests to me that they are not important enough to you for you to have ever read them! They don't have to be "the Word of God" to be accurate history! We have accurate history books today that have NOTHING TO DO with "the Word of God!" We have "history books" WITHIN "the Word of God," and THOSE works you can count on God to have controlled their writing to be 100% accurate in the history they record; however, one should NOT neglect other sources of history! The word "Maccabees" is NOT a plural word; it is a Helenized Hebrew word that means "Hammer." It applied to the son of a priest by the name of Mattathias (again, Helenized). That son's name was Yhudah or Helenized as "Judas." Judas Maccabees (or Yhudah the "Hammer") was the hero involved in the successful Hasmonean revolt against the Seleucid Empire under the then-current reign of Antiochus IV "Epiphanes." GOD HIMSELF made that revolt successful, whether you want to include 1 & 2 Maccabees as part of the "Word of God" or not! Regarding my "two mistakes," 1. I do NOT "disregard what the real scriptures say!" And, I take that as a PERSONAL assault! 1a. I find it very revealing that you would quote Matthew 24:33 and 35, but skip over verse 34! Let's look at the WHOLE thing, shall we, and in all three Gospels? Matthew 24:32-35 (KJV) 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender (green, supple), and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh (close): 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Mark 13:28-31 (KJV) 28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Luke 21:29-33 (KJV) 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Sometimes, "all things" are NOT "ALL things!" First, note that the "fig tree" is NOT "representative" of ANYTHING. It's simply a ratio equation: When the branches of the fig tree and ALL THE TREES were green with quick and they're budding, one knows that summer is almost upon him, ... IN LIKE MANNER, when you shall see all THESE things, know that it is close, even at the threshhold! However, before one reads verse 35, Yeshua` also said in verse 34 (which you skipped), "Truly I tell you, THIS generation shall not pass, until all these things be fulfilled." IF "all these things" are indeed talking about "ALL these things," then we MUST be FULL PRETERISTS and believe that the "ALL these things" included the coming of the Messiah, too! And, contrary to popular teaching that this is about some "future generation," He didn't SAY that, either! He said, "THIS generation," talking about "when YE shall see all these things!" THEY - the DISCIPLES seated upon that Mount of Olives that day - were the "THIS generation!" That's the reasoning that one should take IF "all these things" are indeed talking about "ALL these things." However, while the word "all" CAN refer to "the entire amount," it may also be QUALIFIED by the modifiers that also exist in the sentence or paragraph or discourse. I submit to you that ONLY those parts that directly addressed them with the words "ye" or "you" or "your" are the "all" of this statement. Over the rest they had no control, not being personally involved since it would be in the future beyond their lifetimes, nor would they PERSONALLY "see" the rest, being dead and awaiting the Resurrection! I'll let you think on these thoughts before going on.
  4. Shalom, Da Puppers. Well, you've got to be precise in what I said. I quoted the following from the three "Gospels," Matthew, Mark, and Luke: Matthew 24:9-28 (KJV) 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mark 13:10-23 (KJV) 10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take anything out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Luke 21:10-24 (KJV) 10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give such, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land (of ISRAEL), and wrath upon this people (THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL). 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (non-Israelis), until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And, these portions of the Olivet Discourse WERE fulfilled! However, NOT EVERYTHING in the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled, yet. For instance, the reason why I stopped here in each Gospel was because the next sections won't be fulfilled until His Return! Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mark 13:24-27 (KJV) 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Luke 21:25-28 (KJV) 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. None of these events have happened, yet. (But, they will!) Count the number of "ye's" and "you's" and "your's" in the first sections. Then, count the number of "ye's" and "you's" and "your's" in the second sections. When Yeshua` is said to have used these words, He was talking about His disciples who were sitting on the mount right before Him! Thus, when one sees those words used, one can rest assured that He is talking DIRECTLY TO THEM, NOT US! However, several times Yeshua` looked off into the distant future into our time and beyond. The final sentences in each of the first sections of these Gospels show the transition of Him looking off into the distant future: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles (vultures) be gathered together. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (non-Israelis), until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Mark's account still uses the "ye" and "you," so technically, it should come first among the three. It took TIME to have several, false "Messiahs" and several, false "prophets" throughout history! They occurred (and may still occur) one at a time for each following that one "Messiah" or "prophet" could generate! The vultures of "Messiahs" and "prophets" and the Roman occupation siezed the "carcase" of what was left of Israel, including the believers in the "Way," that we call "Christians" and the "churches" today! The nation of Israel DID "fall by the edge of the Roman sword" and they WERE "led away captive into all nations!" And, Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) has indeed been "trodden down of the Gentiles" for most of the last 2,000 years! If that wasn't true, there wouldn't have been a "Herod the Great" going after Yeshua` when He was born! There wouldn't have been a "centurion" who came to Yeshua`! There wouldn't have been a "Pilate" before whom Yeshua` stood to be condemned! In point of fact, Yerushalayim has been SO "trodden under foot," that the Old City was divided into and now exists in FOUR PARTS, three of which are Gentile! Matthew's account adds, in passing, that Yeshua` said that His Coming would be "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west," that is, it would be as OBVIOUS as lightning flashing in the east and everything within sight including things way off in the west would be illuminated by that flash! His Coming wouldn't be "out in the desert" or hidden away in some "inner room" or "closet!" It also took MUCH TIME for "nations to rise against nations" and "kingdoms against kingdoms" and "great earthquakes, and famines, and pestilences to be in many different places!" These are all clues that a great gap of time would occur before Yeshua` returned! It will also take TIME for "the gospel of the Kingdom to first be published among all nations," even today! For we've not yet BEGUN to herald the "good news about the coming Kingdom of the Messiah!" Most "Christians" suffer under the delusion that the "kingdom" is already here! That it's not important that the Messiah actually, bodily return! That it's "heaven" that we should look for, not the Resurrection of our physical bodies! There's still a LOT OF WORK to do before we get back to "publishing the good news about the Kingdom among all nations!" I'm not a "Preterist" by saying that PART of Yeshua`s "Olivet Discourse" was already fulfilled! His Coming is YET TO BE FULFILLED!
  5. Shalom, Da Puppers. Nope, not the pope. HOWEVER, He WAS a PROPHET! So were Yochanan ("John") and Sha'uwl "Paulos" ("Paul")! They were NOT just "apostles" ("sent ones")!
  6. Shalom, Da Puppers. Sorry, but you're mistaken about Peter's intent. He is not minimizing his prophetic encounter compared to those of the other prophets whose words we read in the rest of the Scriptures. He is speaking from personal experience regarding the "holy men of God spake as they were MOVED by the Ruwach haQodesh." Don't you think he BURNED within, ACHING to share what he saw on the Mount, but was instructed NOT to say anything until after the Messiah Yeshua` rose from the dead?! He SAW FIRST-HAND the Messiah of God coming with brightness and power! He was one of the three who were the "some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power and have seen the Son of man coming in His kingdom!" And, He SAW it come in the vision! Kefa ("Peter") was the ONE who suggested that they put up tents for Yeshua`, Mosheh, and Eliyahuw! And, as far as your understanding of 2 Peter 1:19-21, the wording is strained in translation. The Greek says it this way: 19 and we hold more firmly the prophetic word, to which you do well taking heed as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until this day shall have dawned and [the] light-bringer shall have arisen in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that all prophetic writing is not of its own interpretation; 21 for prophecy was not brought at any time by [the] will of man, but men spoke from God being carried under [the] Holy Spirit. The idea here is that prophetic writing doesn't stand alone! It all meshes together like the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, because they all spoke the words from God, being carried under the SAME Ruwach haQodesh! Peter's writing of that encounter he had is added to the rest as another piece of the puzzle!
  7. Shalom, Kristin. No, the Hebrew word for "host" is "tsaaVaa'" and refers to an "army." Here's the entry in A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Hebrew Bible in Strong's Concordance (with corrections): 6635 tsaaVaa' (tsaw-vaw'). appointed time, army, battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, Or (feminine) tsVaa'aah {tsev-aw-aw'}; from tsaaVaa'; a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. Organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship) -- appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare). God is frequently called "the LORD of hosts." In Hebrew, this is "YHWH TsVaa'owt," using the feminine plural of this word. The feminine gender is often used to refer to an abstract concept rather than a concrete thing. He is "YHWH of Armies!"
  8. Shalom, Da Puppers. Haven't you read about the incident on the Mount of Transfiguration within its context? In all three of the Synoptic Gospels we read this: MATTHEW 16:24-17:13 (KJV) 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, "Arise, and be not afraid." 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, "Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, "Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?" 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them." 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. MARK 8:34-9:13 (KJV) 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, "Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." 1 And he said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." 6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." 8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. 11 And they asked him, saying, "Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?" 12 And he answered and told them, "Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him." LUKE 9:23-36 (KJV) 23 And he said to them all, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." 28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. 33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias:" not knowing what he said. 34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." 36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen. The transfiguration IS A VISION of the "power and coming of our Lord!" These three disciples were given a prophet's vision of the future Kingdom! THEY WERE PROPHETS OF GOD!
  9. Shalom, Shilohsfoal. Sorry, but you weren't paying attention to what I wrote. Yeshua` wasn't talking about the "abomination of desolation" that is SAID to be mentioned in either Daniel 8 or 11. Yeshua` was talking about the "abomination of desolation" that was mentioned in Daniel 9! First, the "abomination of desolation" should NOT be used as a TITLE! One needs to fully understand HOW the words "abomination" (Hebrew: shiqquts) and/or "desolation" (Hebrew: shomeem) were used within a particular passage of Scripture. Their presence in a passage doesn't mean that they are talking about the same event, NOR does it mean that they are talking about what you or anyone else today is talking about as a future-to-us event! Dani'el 9:27 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH transliterated) 27 Vhigbiyr briyt laarabiym shaaVuwa' echaad vachatsiy hashaaVuwa` yashviyt zeVach uwminchaah v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad kaalaah vnecheraatsaah tittakh `al shomeem. 27 Vhigbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen briyt = a-covenant laarabiym = to/for-the-many shaaVuwa' = Seven ("Week") echaad = one vachatsiy = and-in-the-middle hashaaVuwa' = of-the-Seven yashviyt = he-shall-bring-an-end-to zeVach = sacrifice uwminchaah = and-offering v`al = and-against/upon knaf = a-spread-out-wing shiqquwtsiym = of-abominations mshomeem = he-shall-make-desolate v`ad = and-until kaalaah = the-end vnecheraatsaah = that-which-is-determined/judged/sentenced tittakh = is-poured-out `al = against/upon shomeem. = [the]-desolate. Putting all this together, we get ... 27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to/for-the-many one Seven ("Week") and-in-the-middle of-the-Seven he-shall-bring-an-end-to sacrifice and-offering and-against/upon a-spread-out-wing of-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until the-end that-which-is-determined/judged/sentenced is-poured-out against/upon [the]-desolate. And, that's PRECISELY what happened in Matthew 23! "And against/upon a spread-out-wing of abominations,..." Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, 'Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!' 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, 'Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.' 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, 'If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute themfrom city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" "... he shall make desolate ..." 38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate!" "... and until the end that which is determined/judged/sentenced is poured out against/upon [the] desolate." 39 "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." And, that desolation caused its OWN abomination! The destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D some 40 years later! And, it's to THAT abomination from the desolation to which Yeshua` was referring.
  10. Shalom, Da Puppers. Well, for starters, you MISAPPLIED Peter's words in 2 Peter 1:20-21! Look at it in context, and let's look at the Greek: 2 Peter 1:16-21 (KJV) 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Verses 16-18 inform us that Kefa ("Peter") is talking about his experience in the "Mount of Transfiguration" when He PERSONALLY SAW Yeshua` transformed which he recognized as "the power and coming of our Lord (our Master) Yeshua` the Messiah!" Then, Kefa noted that his readers should see his account of this event as a "light that shines in a dark place" until the time in their future they see the truth PERSONALLY as "the day dawn, and the day star arise" in their own hearts! Then, he adds, "the prophecy came not ... by the will of man" in the past when the prophecy was given and written down and also adds that "holy men of God (the prophets) spake as they were moved by the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost)." So, in between, when he said, "no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation," he's talking about his VISION he had on the "Mount of Transfiguration!" Furthermore, he was not alone! His close companions, Ya`aqov and Yochanan ("James and John") were with him and also saw the vision and could verify what he saw and heard! Here's the Greek (transliterated) of this passage: Petrou B 1:16-21 (UBS The Greek New Testament) 16 Ou gar sesofismenois muthois exakoloutheesantes egnoorisamen humin teen tou Kuriou heemoon Ieesou Christou dunamin kai parousian, all' epoptai geneethentes tees ekeinou megaleioteetos. 17 laboon gar para Theou Patros timeen kai doxan foonees enechtheisees autoo toiasde hupo tees megaloprepous doxees, "Ho huios mou ho agapeetos mou houtos estin, eis hon egoo eudokeesa," 18 kai tauteen teen fooneen heemeis eekousamen ex ouranou enechtheisan sun autoo ontes en too hagioo orei. 19 kai echomen bebaioteron ton profeetikon logon, hoo kaloos poieite prosechontes hoos luchnoo fainonti en auchmeeroo topoo, heoos hou heemera diaugasee kai foosforos anateilee en tais kardiais humoon; 20 touto prooton ginooskontes, hoti pasa profeeteia grafees idias epiluseoos ou ginetai; 21 ou gar theleemati anthroopou eenechthee profeeteia pote, alla hupo Pneumatos Hagiou feromenoi elaleesan apo Theou anthroopoi. A word-for-word translation is ... 16 Not for skillfully-devised myths we-did-follow/imitate we-have-made-known to-you the of-the Lord of-us Yeshua` Messiah power and coming, but eyewitnesses we-having-been of-the that-one-there majesty. 17 He-having-received for from God Father honor and glory a-voice was-made-publicly-known to-Him such-as-follows under the Majestic glory, "The Son of-me the Loved-one of-me this-one is, into whom I have-found-delight," 18 and this-one the voice we heard out-of [the] sky having-been-brought with Him, being in the holy mountain. 19 and we-have/hold more-firm the prophetic word, to-which well you-do taking-heed as to-a-lamp shining in a-dark place, until this day shall-have-dawned and light-bringer shall-have-arisen in the hearts of-you; 20 this first knowing, that all prophetic writing of-its-own interpretation not is; 21 not for by-will of-man was-brought prophecy at-any-time, but under Spirit Holy being-carried spoke from God men. So,... 1. I don't CARE if you think 1 and 2 Maccabees is "Scripture" (which simply means a "writing," btw) or not; it's the historic TRUTH that I'm talking about, and that truth is both acknowledged in Scripture and authenticated! Not all "scripture" is "interpreted" by "scripture." However, Scripture will often VALIDATE other Scriptures! However, it CAN'T happen all the time! It's IMPOSSIBLE! Your statement, "This not only means that it will happen exactly as God's word says that it will, it also means that when it is fulfilled (it becomes history), there will be a prophetic recognition," is a "Catch-22" situation! It's logically invalid. How can you have a completed Bible if you have a prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled, by this statement you make? Unless you have an "open Bible," that is, a Bible that may still be amended, you can't HAVE a "prophetic recognition" of an unfulfilled prophecy! Anyway, that's enough for tonight; I'm tired. More later...
  11. Shalom, Shilohsfoal. Nope. Neither one. First, Yeshua` wasn't talking about "the abomination which causes desolation" found in either Daniel 8 or Daniel 11. He was talking about the REASON for the "desolation" in which He left the Jews of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37-39, the "abominations of the woes" pronounced in the first part of Matthew 23 and their rejection of God's Messiah! Therefore, it wasn't about the "Second Advent" nor could one say that Yeshua` couldn't understand Daniel 9:24-27! Furthermore, Yeshua` didn't "PROJECT" the prophecy of Daniel into any future other than their own just 40 years after Yeshua`s rejection and crucifixion. Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are ALL the same event - the Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:9-28 (KJV) 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mark 13:10-23 (KJV) 10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take anything out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Luke 21:10-24 (KJV) 10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to he synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give such, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land (of ISRAEL), and wrath upon this people (THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL). 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (non-Israelis), until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. All of this occurred in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! I've highlighted a few, identical points in all three, and by means of a "squeeze play," one can identify the following equivalences: "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place" = "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" = "Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." And, this happened in the SIEGE of Jerusalem from 66 to 70 A.D! The Romans' BLOCKADE of Jerusalem ended with the destruction - the DESOLATION - of Jerusalem! It's not "rocket science," people! This prophecy of our Lord is FULFILLED! One can also see (if one is willing to admit it and REFUSES to be blind to it anymore) that another equivalence is ... "great tribulation" = "affliction" = "great distress in the land (of ISRAEL), and wrath upon this people (THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL)."
  12. Shalom, Da Puppers. You were doing just fine until you make this RADICAL leap! The "kingdom" of Antiochus IV Epiphanes is called the "Seleucid Empire," which no longer exists today! This passage was NOT for "the time of the end" of all THINGS! It was for "the time of the end" of the SELEUCID EMPIRE! The "many days" refers to the fact that there were almost 400 YEARS between the close of the Tanakh (the OT) and the arrival of the Messiah Yeshua`! And, within that time period, we have the Seleucid Empire (including Antiochus IV), the Hasmonean Revolt (the time of "the Maccabees" - "the Hammer"), and the arrival of the Roman occupation of the Middle East and its Idumean puppet-king, Herod the Great! Learn from history FIRST; THEN, one can look more clearly at those passages which have NOT yet been fulfilled!
  13. Shalom, Shilohsfoal. Read the passage within its context. You don't have to YANK it out and make it apply to some future event! This passage was fulfilled in the times after Daniel and before the FIRST Coming of the Messiah! Therefore, it doesn't apply to some future "Antichrist." It APPLIED - PAST TENSE - to Antiochus IV Epiphanes! And, no, a king without an army isn't strong enough to do ANYTHING without one! Who is it who provided the "little horn" with a host? Well, it was his OWN PEOPLE who provided that army. And, if you want to press the issue, you could say that God ultimately supplied such an army for His own purposes, but he had an army regardless! It is sheer NONSENSE to project this passage into our future!
  14. Shalom, Firm Foundation. I'll be praying that the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) will lead me to the right words for you, but you must understand that I am bucking against 2,000 years of "informational thermodynamics!" Ever play "Telephone" as a kid? Y'know, where the first kid gets a message to say to the next kid in a circle and he whispers it to him/her who then whispers that "same message" (as best as they can recall) to the next kid who then whispers it to the next kid, and so on? At the end of the game, the "same message" is received by the teacher who then reveals to the circle what was originally said as well as the message received at the end. The differences are ASTOUNDING! Well, the same thing has been going on with biblical terminology for almost 2,000 years now since the First Century. Contrary to the opinions of Evolution, the human race is NOT "getting better and better!" We're not "evolving"; if anything is true, we're DEVOLVING! When one leaves mankind to their own devices, they will inevitably DEGENERATE! It didn't take long for such decay to become evident. The first signs were in the 200s and 300s A.D! IF you can trust the original languages of Greek and Hebrew, and IF you can accept that our biblical knowledge has DECAYED over the last 2,000 years, then PERHAPS you can accept what I've been saying. See, the problem is not with the Scriptures. The problem is in our UNDERSTANDING of the Scriptures. Through several different languages and many revisions and rewrites of the Scriptures, what we have today is but a SHADOW of what was originally written. However, even if you accept the truth that the underlying truths of Scripture haven't changed, our DEFINITIONS of certain key words HAVE changed over the centuries. Furthermore, to complicate things even farther, our liturgies and practices and rituals have also degenerated down through time. Even our "statements of faith" are subtly different! In my lifetime, I've noticed two major changes: First, the word "heaven" used to mean "anything over one's head" when I was a kid. It applied to the sky and to the "abode of God." Now, the word almost STRICTLY means the "abode of God" (wherever it is) and "sky" STRICTLY means "the earth's atmosphere" or "what we can SEE overhead." Second, the word "resurrection" used to STRICTLY mean "the bringing back to life of the human body." Now, thanks to sermons and songs like Resurrection by Nicol Sponberg in which she sings "I'm in need of resurrection," talking about bringing order and peace back to a life full of pain, sorrow, and chaos, the word is used "spiritually" for healing in a person's life! Many no longer look for a General Resurrection at the Second Coming (or at the Rapture), but feel that the word "resurrection" is something that occurs INDIVIDUALLY during one's lifetime! I will do my best for you, but (and this may sound trite) you will have to listen to the Holy Spirit.
  15. Shalom, Firm Foundation. Okay, let's pursue this: Just what do you mean by "absolute terms?"
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