Retrobyter

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About Retrobyter

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  • Birthday 10/28/1957

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  1. Shalom, BobRyan. That's nonsense. You obviously have never studied the concept of "infinity" in mathematics. Infinity is not limited at all. It's not like 1 x 8 = 8 x 1! Commutation of multiplication does not apply to infinity. Furthermore, infinity is more like 0 in the sense that it ABSORBS all other numbers. 0 x any number = 0. However, the inverse is not applicable. Any number / 0 is neither 0 nor some other number; it is called "undefined." This is because when one says, "5 / 0" he or she is actually saying "I'm not going to divide 5 by anything." Some mathematical tricks are done by secretly attempting to say that "4 / 0 = 5 / 0," for instance. Usually, these tricks are performed by hiding the whole thing in algebra - the substitution of letters for the numbers - so that the false math is hidden in the letters. To understand infinity a little better, remember that after 10,000,000 years have passed, infinite time still is left! God can forgive an INFINITE amount of sins by the same INFINITE sacrifice for sin and still have an INFINITE amount of that sacrifice left for an INFINITE amount of people! Learn the MAGNITUDE of God's ability! He is an INFINITE GOD, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent and eternal!
  2. Shalom, BobRyan. 1. They may argue that we HAVE bodies, but that's not what Genesis 2:7 said. It said that Adam WAS the body that was formed and given the breath (puff) of life. They are RIGHT that "we breathe air," but that implies that "we" ARE the bodies capable of breathing air. 2. No, you misunderstood what I was saying about the passage. It's not the "ability to breathe air" that's killed; it's the "resurrection of the air-breather" - the "air-breathing body" - that is killed, or rather, destroyed. Read it again with the appropriate substitutions: Matthew 10:28 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy the [future resurrected] air-breather: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both [future resurrected] air-breather and body in gei-Hinnom. KJV Of course, the words "future resurrected" are added for clarity, but you can read it without those words and still see the point because the judgment at gei-Hinnom - the Valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem - is a future chain of events when the Messiah becomes Israel's King! The air-breather DOES go "dormant" (which is the Latin "dormire," through the French dormir, for "to sleep") at death! It "goes to sleep!" It lies in a grave and begins to decay. The person "gives up the ghost" or "gives up the spirit" or "gives up the breath," and the individual CEASES to breathe! He or she will not breathe again until the Resurrection! Lazarus (Elezar) the person was "asleep" in the tomb with a stone rolled in front of the doorway. When Yeshua` had them roll the stone away and called out to him, "Elezar, tsee'!" ("Lazarus, come out!") Notice, too, that Yeshua` didn't say "I go that I may wake his BODY!" God doesn't "keep info" to make copies of a person; He KNOWS all our members BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN FORMED! Why shouldn't He know them when it's time to "wake us up?" Psalm 139:1-24 1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest (smallest; microscopic) parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect (immature); and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! 18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. 19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. 20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. 21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way (road; path) everlasting. KJV Sorry, but in 1 Corinthians 15, we do NOT HAVE a body; we ARE a body! Beginning with Paul's quotation of Genesis 2:7, we see... 1 Corinthians 15:45 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "a-living air-breather"); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "a-life-making wind/forceful-breath" in a body of "flesh and bones"; see Luke 24:39). KJV Then, we read... 1 Corinthians 15:46-49 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon, the adjective form of pneuma), but that which is natural (Greek: psuchikon, the adjective form of psuchee = air-breather); and afterward that which is spiritual (Greek: pneumatikon). 47 The first man is of the earth (Greek: ek gees = "out-of earth"), earthy (Greek: choikos = "dusty/dirty/soil-like"): the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ex ouranos = "out-of [the]-sky"). 48 As is the earthy (Greek: choikos = "dusty/dirty/soil-like"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek: choikoi = plural noun form: "dirty-ones"): and as is the heavenly (Greek: epouranios = of-or-from-above-the-sky), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: epouranioi = plural noun form: "of-or-from-above-the-sky-ones"). 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (Greek: teen eikona tou choikou = "the image/likeness of-the dusty/dirty/soil-like"), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Greek: teen eikona tou epouraniou = "the image/likeness of-the-one of-or-from-above-the-sky"). KJV It's not "the body of the first man is of the earth"; it's "the first man is of the earth." It's not "our bodies" but "WE have borne the image of the earthy!" As far as 2 Corinthians 5:1-7 is concerned, Paul is not contrasting the body and the soul/spirit. He is artificially contrasting the outer man and the inner man! He's using a parable form in 2 Cor. 5:1-7 to show this contrast. Consider chapter 4: 2 Corinthians 4:5-18 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; 10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. KJV
  3. Shalom, inchrist. Perhaps, but if so, then I would have to say that the wrong word was used in translation because the word for "punishment" is ... NT:2851 kolasis (kol'-as-is); from NT:2849; penal infliction: KJV - punishment, torment. NT:2849 kolazoo (kol-ad'-zo); from kolos (dwarf); properly, to curtail, i.e. (figuratively) to chastise (or reverse for infliction): KJV - punish. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) Thus, the words mean "eternal CHASTISEMENT" or "eternal INFLICTION," not just the consequences of some past event! Think about this: Why would the Messiah have raised them from the dead just to drop them again?!
  4. Shalom, Hawkeye. I suppose, since there IS such a thing as "eternal punishment," that I would have to be considered "Anti-Conditional." Whether all are escalated to that point or not, I'm not so sure. However, the death of God's Son on the cross is so precious, that ANY refusal of such a priceless, free gift by one who is a potential recipient of that payment for sin SHOULD be considered a slap in God's face and worthy of such punishment!
  5. Shalom, Hawkeye. My intent was to show that a proper interpretation of "soul" and "spirit" will correct the thinking of many on this thread. For instance, "the souls of the martyrs who were beheaded" were ALREADY resurrected! They were "SOULS" - "AIR-BREATHERS!" They weren't in "heaven" under the altar, they were before the PHYSICAL altar of the rebuilt Temple. Since people used this passage as a proof text, they must re-think their positions based on this information. There is no "Heaven" as people often think of it. There IS, however, a New Jerusalem that will land upon the New Earth with its New Sky. In light of this information, some should re-think their positions. Hawkeye, you said, There are several things that are wrong with these two views versus the way that Scripture presents these topics. First, "hell" is the wrong word. Three Greek words were translated as "hell" and NONE of them is the "Lake of Fire and Brimstone" or the "Lake of Burning Sulfur." These three Greek words are "hadees" or "hades" which means the "unseen," used as we would use the words "the unknown"; "ge-enna" or "gehenna," the "Valley of Hinnom" outside Jerusalem where the trash was burned and where the judgment seat of the kings were set up to judge evildoers and sentence them to death; and "tartaro-oo," a verb meaning to "incarcerate in Tartaros," the lowest prison in the Greek-mythological place of "Hades." Second, "heaven" is the wrong word. There are five words that were translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly," and they were "epouranios," "mesouraneema," "ouranothen," "ouranios," and "ouranos," whose plural is "ouranoi." NONE of these words have to do with our final destination - our home - the New Earth with its New Sky and the New Jerusalem that will land there. "Ouranos" is the foundation word for the other four: NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); perhaps from the same as NT:3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity): KJV - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) ep-ouran-ios = above-the-sky-of-or-related-to (adjective) mes-ouran-eema = middle-of-the-sky-position (noun) ouran-ios = the-sky-of-or-related-to (adjective) ourano-then = the-sky-from (focusing on the source) NT:2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:1909 and NT:3772; above the sky: KJV - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high. NT:3321 mesouraneema (mes-oo-ran'-ay-mah); from a presumed compound of NT:3319 and NT:3772; mid-sky: KJV - midst of heaven. NT:3770 ouranios (oo-ran'-ee-os); from NT:3772; celestial, i.e. belonging to or coming from the sky: KJV - heavenly. NT:3771 ouranothen (oo-ran-oth'-en); from NT:3772 and the enclitic of source; from the sky: KJV - from heaven. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) However, all the descriptions of "heaven" - the streets of gold, the pearly gates, the foundations made from gemstones, the foursquare city of gold, the river of the water of life, the tree of life - come from the descriptions of the New Jerusalem, not "heaven," in Revelation 21 and 22. Third, there's only one way that there is an "immortal soul," an "immortal air-breather," and that's through the RESURRECTION. However, Paul tells us in the Resurrection Chapter, 1 Cor. 15, that there's more than one general resurrection: 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: (0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward (1) they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then (2) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. KJV There will be general resurrections (1) at Christ's coming (at the beginning of the Millennium) and (2) at the end of the age (at the end of the Millennium). Also, this passage doesn't talk about eternal torment. The issue here is the Son "subduing all of His enemies," putting them "under His feet." Revelation 20:1-15 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls (Greek: tas psuchas = "the air-breathers") of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. KJV On the other hand, nowhere in this passage of Revelation 20 does it say that the dead, small and great, who are not found written in the book of life and were cast into the Lake of Fire were "to be tormented day and night for ever and ever," like the devil's fate. But, we DO have Yeshua`s words: Matthew 25:41-46 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. KJV There are other, more minor issues in what you said above, but they can be investigated another day.
  6. Shalom, BobRyan. Kata Maththaion 10:28 28 Kai mee fobeisthe apo toon apoktenontoon to sooma, teen de psucheen mee dunamenoon apokteinai fobeisthe de mallon ton dunamenon kai psucheen kai sooma apolesai en ge-ennee. UBS Greek New Testament 28 Kai = 28 And/Also mee = not fobeisthe = you-be-frightened/alarmed/in-awe-of/revere apo = away-from toon = those apoktenontoon = killing/destroying to = the sooma = body teen = the de = but/however psucheen = air-breather mee = not dunamenoon = being-able apokteinai = to-kill/destroy fobeisthe = you-be-frightened/alarmed/in-awe-of/revere de = but/however mallon = rather/more ton = the-one dunamenon = being-able kai = and/also psucheen = an-air-breather kai = and/also sooma = a-body apolesai = to-kill/destroy en = in ge-ennee = [the]-Valley-of-Hinnom. 28 And/Also not you-be-frightened/alarmed/in-awe-of/revere away-from those killing/destroying the body but/however the air-breather not being-able to-kill/destroy but/however you-be-frightened/alarmed/in-awe-of/revere rather/more the-one being-able and/also an-air-breather and/also a-body to-kill/destroy in [the]-Valley-of-Hinnom. One thing one must realize is that nowhere in this statement does it say that a SINGLE PERSON is both a body and an air-breather. However, a SINGLE PERSON IS EITHER a body OR an air-breather (a person who is alive). This speaks to the RESURRECTION because it is AFTER that resurrection that one stands before the Messiah to be judged in the Valley of Hinnom outside of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), erroneously translated "hell." What makes a person able to be resurrected long after decay has destroyed the body is God's MEMORY of that person! Resurrection is actually an act of CREATION! And, even when one is to become a glorified body, that transformation happens AT the resurrection! Paul finishes his resurrection chapter like this: 1 Corinthians 15:35-54 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body (Greek: soomata psuchikon), and there is a spiritual body (Greek: soomata pneumatikon). [Note: An "oo" represents an omega, while an "o" represents an omicron.] 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: . 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. KJV Therefore, we should be revering/fearing the One who can RAISE to life as easily as He can TAKE a life! That's what Matthew 10:28 is saying.
  7. Shabbat shalom, folks. I've read through portions of this topic ... and find myself cringing from the lack of understanding of basic terminology. We have such a limited understanding of the vocabulary we use, that we consistently make errors in the usage of this vocabulary. Let's go back to Genesis and get things right: First, a transliteration and translation of the Hebrew: B-reeshiyt 2:7 7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayipach b'apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayaah: Souvenir Torah from Chagiym Yerushalayim 7 Vayiytser = 7 And-he-formed YHWH = the-LORD (God's Name) Elohiym = God et = (the following is the direct object) haa'aadaam = the-red-man `aafaar = of-dust min = from haa'adaamaah = the-red-ground vayipach = and-he-puffed b'apaayv = in-his-nostrils nishmat = a-puff chayiym = of-living-(things) vayhiy = and-he-became haa'aadaam = the-red-man l-nefesh = to/into-an-air-breather chayaah: = living: Genesis 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, ***the LORD God formed "the MAN," not "the BODY of the man!" and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ***He PUFFED into his nostrils the PUFF of living things; that is, life, and man became a living soul. *** and "the MAN" became "a living AIR-BREATHER!" KJV Here's Strong's on the word used for "soul": OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead (-ly), desire, [dis-] contented, fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, would have it. OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air): KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed). (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) That's what a "soul" is; it's an AIR-BREATHER! *** A "spirit" is even easier! Here's the Strong's entry: OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): KJV - air, anger, blast, breath, cool, courage, mind, quarter, side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y). (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) Here's some of the less confused passages: Genesis 8:1-3 1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged; 2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; 3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. KJV Exodus 10:13 13 And Moses stretched forth his rod over the land of Egypt, and the LORD brought an east wind upon the land all that day, and all that night; and when it was morning, the east wind brought the locusts. KJV Exodus 10:19 19 And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt. KJV Exodus 15:1-10 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. 4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. 5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. 6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. 7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. 8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea. 9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them. 10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters. KJV Both words are used of animals as well as men: Genesis 1:20-25 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature (Hebrew: nefesh) that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (Hebrew: nefesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (Hebrew: nefesh) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. KJV Ecclesiastes 3:21 21 Who knoweth the spirit (Hebrew: ruwach) of man that goeth upward, and the spirit (Hebrew: ruwach) of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? KJV So, my point is this: Both animals and mankind are said to BE "air-breathers" and both are said to HAVE "winds/breaths." There never seems to be a problem with the word "body," but just to be thorough,... OT:1472 geviyaah (ghev-ee-yaw'); prolonged for OT:1465; a body, whether alive or dead: KJV - (dead) body, carcase, corpse. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) Genesis 47:18-19 18 When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide it from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not ought left in the sight of my lord, but our bodies (Hebrew: geviyaah), and our lands: 19 Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh: and give us seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate. KJV Judges 14:8-9 8 And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase (Hebrew: geviyaah) of the lion. 9 And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase (Hebrew: geviyaah) of the lion. KJV Greek had their own set of words, "sooma" = "body"; "pneuma" = "wind/breath"; "psuchee" = "an air-breather," but they were compatible and translations of the Hebrew words above. A case in point is found in 1 Corinthians 15:45: 1 Corinthians 15:45 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma). KJV Now, I would suggest that anyone who has posted in this topic go back and re-read what you posted in light of this information. You might just laugh at the absurdity of what you wrote when using these definitions.
  8. Shabbat shalom, Daniel 11:36. And, I should have added that the Romans WERE involved in the prophecy of the 70 Sevens. They are the "PEOPLE of the prince that shall come," Titus being that "prince."
  9. Shalom, Daniel 11:36. Actually, "the Lord's cutting off at the cross" was at the end of the 69th week AND A HALF A WEEK! It's only the last half of the 70th week that is still pending. Yeshua` Himself cut the 70th week in half when He partially fulfilled Daniel 9:27 in Matthew 23:37-39. Daniel 9:24-27 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. KJV Matthew 23:29-39 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (THESE are the "overspreading of abominations!") 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! *** 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. *** 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD." KJV And, the last quotation comes from Psalm 118:26: Psalm 118:8-26 8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. 9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes. 10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I destroy them. 11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. 12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them. 13 Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the LORD helped me. 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. ("the chief stone of the angle" = "the CAPSTONE") 23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. KJV The Hebrew of which is "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," which means "Welcome, Comer in the name (on the authority) of YHWH." And, the word transliterated as "Yeshua`" or "Jesus," meaning "He will save" or "He will rescue" or "He will deliver," is found in verses 13, 14, 15, and 21!
  10. Shalom, No124get1952. Absolutely it's time! My experience has been that when people are describing "Heaven," they are really talking about the New Jerusalem described in Revelation 21 and 22, which will be founded upon the New Earth after the Millennium (the 1000 years). And, according to the initial verses of Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem IS God's House - His Bedouin "tent," so to speak, like that of Avraham. Its GPS coordinates are not revealed, but the author of Hebrews DID say that this was a city ABOVE the sky (Greek: epouraniou). So, I believe that it is currently still under construction in space. It is DEFINITELY a "pretty neat, 3-dimensional [physical] place!" I should also mention that when it lands upon the New Earth, that its coordinates will be 31 degrees 47 minutes North, 35 degrees 13 minutes East, dead center where the old Jerusalem will once have stood.
  11. Shalom, Daniel 11:36. Um.... No. You're confusing "immortal" with God's attributes, like omnipresence. Man will still have boundaries, even as a resurrected immortal person, because we will be LIKE THE MESSIAH (THE CHRIST)! AND, HE still had/has boundaries! He could be SEEN; He could be TOUCHED; He could be HANDLED; and He could EAT! Thus, He was both PHYSICAL, having "flesh and bones," and LIMITED in dimensions! He could ascend to the sky and leave earth! He must return and shall descend to earth! He still has limitations. Therefore, we shall be the same way! "Immortal" simply means that we won't be able to die anymore.
  12. Shalom, ENOCH2010. I agree. The DAY of the Lord is that 1000 years that Peter talks about. (2 Pet. 3:8.) Can there be anything but one day in the presence of the King who shines brighter than the sun and who never sleeps? Revelation 1:16 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. KJV Malachi 4:1-2 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. KJV This is NOT figurative language; Yeshua` will glow brightly just as He did in the vision of His transfiguration, and 2 Peter 3 is the key: The thousand years begins with His coming and ENDS with "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men," a.k.a. the Great White Throne Judgment. 2 Peter 3:7 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition (sentencing) of ungodly men. KJV Revelation 20:7-15 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. KJV
  13. Shalom, Marcus. No, you're wrong because you haven't yet investigated all the facts. Please read this argument for Daniel 11. You will find that the answer to these verses in Daniel 11 is because of the history of those times. You have a MIXTURE of personalities involved in how they treated the Holy Land during the two centuries before the Messiah arrived. Not everything in the Scriptures about some "bad man" is about the "Antichrist!" The simple solution to the shape of the New Jerusalem is this: FOLLOW THE RIVER. Start from its Source and follow it (and the street) to the gates! And, be aware that material items, like water, are affected by gravity and that... Revelation 21:24-26 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. KJV
  14. Shalom, Marcus. Nobody's claimed that you "coined the term"; however, just because others have used it doesn't mean that it's a correct way to treat prophetic Scripture or that you should follow suit. It's really not that hard to understand: If you can't determine WHAT fulfills a prophecy, then you won't know WHEN it was/is fulfilled! And, if you don't know WHY the prophecy was made, you'll get the WHAT wrong EVERY TIME!
  15. Shabbat shalom, Marcus. Not so nice when the shoe's on the other foot, is it? I found your first statement quoted above, in your word, "offensive." So, what goes around comes around. "Dual focus"? Don't you know that you can't do things like that with Scripture? How is a reader supposed to determine when a prophecy has been "fulfilled" or not? Anyone can continue to re-use prophecies to make them sound like they're being fulfilled in a "far-term prophecy" at the whim of the individual! No, when a prophecy has been fulfilled, it's DONE! It's OVER! The definition of "fulfilled" is Merriam-Webster's Definition of fulfill fulfilled; fulfilling transitive verb 1 archaic : to make full : fill: her subtle, warm, and golden breath … fulfills him with beatitude — Alfred Tennyson 2a : to put into effect : execute He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes. b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled. c : to bring to an end she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house — Willa Catherd : to measure up to : satisfy She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate. 3a : to convert into reality a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations — Leslie Reesb : to develop the full potentialities of He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential. Otherwise, how many of the 400 fulfilled prophecies concerning the Messiah should we say are being "far-term" fulfilled about some other would-be "messiah?" I think you're confusing this "rule" with that of "double reference," which is not the same thing at all. A "double reference" is a passage of Scripture that is partially fulfilled at one time and partially fulfilled at a later time. THAT'S permissible. It's that "two mountain" effect. Looking from a particular perspective, two mountains (two points revealed in prophecy) can seem like their right next to each other, when a different perspective will reveal the huge valley between those two peaks (the valley representing the time between the fulfillment of those two points of prophecy). Each portion of the prophecy only has ONE fulfillment, although they SEEM to be together in the prophecy. /\\ vs. /\____(time)_____/\ Also, remember that Yeshua` IS the Resurrection. John 11:21-27 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. KJV General Resurrections aside, there will be resurrections throughout the Millennium! Remember how He instructed His disciples when sending them out to the towns and villages throughout the Land of Israel? Matthew 10:5-8 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach (herald), saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand (within your grasp). 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. KJV This will be the character of the entire Millennium. God the Father AUTHENTICATES the messages about the Kingdom, supporting them with the miracles performed. This is proof positive that God is behind those messages.