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About Retrobyter

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  • Birthday 10/28/1957

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    Wesley Chapel, Florida
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    Computers, Mathematics, Science, Languages (particularly Hebrew and Greek), and above all a correct understanding of G-d's Word.

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  1. Millennial Day Theory

    Shalom, Keras. Assuming, of course, that "the Anti Christ desecrates the Temple." Sorry, but I don't think one should make this assumption. This is ALL based on an improper interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27. Daniel 9:20-27 20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. KJV People naturally assume (why?) that the "he" in verse 27 refers back to "the prince that shall come" in verse 26. It CANNOT! Neither by the rules of English grammar nor by the rules of Hebrew grammar can the "he" in verse 27 refer back to "the prince that shall come." It MUST refer back to the "Messiah" of verse 26. ENGLISH GRAMMAR: The "he" is the pronoun SUBJECT in the sentences of verse 27. It must refer back to the noun that is the SUBJECT in the previous sentence. However, "the prince that shall come" is the OBJECT of the preposition "of!" As the object of the preposition, it CANNOT be the subject of the previous sentence! It is the word "Messiah" that is the subject of the sentence. The subsequent clause after the colon has "the people" as that clause's subject! Even the two conjoined clauses that follow, namely "the end thereof shall be with a flood" and "unto the end of the war desolations are determined," have subordinate subjects of the "end" and "desolations." The only singular, masculine, personal subject in the whole sentence is "Messiah." Therefore, the "he" found three times in verse 27 refers back to "Messiah" in verse 26. HEBREW GRAMMAR: The Hebrew phrase translated as "the people of the prince," is "`am naagiyd." It is called a "noun construct state." The second noun in the construct state is subordinate to the first noun, and cannot be the subject of the sentence. As such, it also cannot be the subject of the following verbs in verse 27 following, which have no other associated nouns. Therefore, the next closest singular, person who could fit the verbs of verse 27 is "mashiyach" in verse 26. In BOTH grammars, neither support the "prince" being the "he" of verse 27. The "Messiah" is the "he." This tells us that... It is the Messiah that "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week," that "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease in the midst of the week," and that "shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, for the overspreading of abominations." The covenant that He confirmed with many for one week (one Seven = seven years) is the Davidic Covenant (not the New Covenant, as many assume): 2 Samuel 7:1-17 1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD (YHVH) had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains. 3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee. 4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar? 8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. KJV Later, David said, Psalm 89:1-52 1 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations. 2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. 3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. 5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. 6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? 7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. 8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? 9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. 10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. 11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them. 12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name. 13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. 14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. 15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. 16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. 17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. 18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. 19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. 20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: 21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. 22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. 23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. 24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. 25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness (Hebrew: checed = "covenant-keeping love") will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. 38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed. 39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground. 40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin. 41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours. 42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice. 43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle. 44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground. 45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah. 46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire? 47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. 49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth? 50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people; 51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed. 52 Blessed be the Lord for evermore. Amen, and Amen. KJV And, we read this about Yeshua`: Luke 1:30-33 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeshua` = "He shall save"). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. KJV Regarding the "seven years," this was David's history: 2 Samuel 5:4-5 4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. 5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah. KJV 1 Chronicles 3:1-4 1 Now these were the sons of David, which were born unto him in Hebron; the firstborn Amnon, of Ahinoam the Jezreelitess; the second Daniel, of Abigail the Carmelitess: 2 The third, Absalom the son of Maachah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur: the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith: 3 The fifth, Shephatiah of Abital: the sixth, Ithream by Eglah his wife. 4 These six were born unto him in Hebron; and there he reigned seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years. KJV 1 Chronicles 29:27 27 And the time that he reigned over Israel was forty years; seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem. KJV He was born "King of the Jews" (Matthew 2:2), and He died with the epitaph, "This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; John 19:19), but He was NEVER declared "King of Israel." The Jews are the people of the tribe of Judah. By checking the contextual clues for Passovers, one can discover that Yeshua`s short "ministry" (His offer of the Kingdom to the Jews), was only 3.5 years long, from the time of His birthday (around Rosh haShannah) when He was 30 to the time of His death (at Passover) when He was 33 years old. Secondly, HE was the One who caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease in the midst of the week: Hebrews 10:1-22 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. KJV Thirdly, HE is the One who left them "desolate": Matthew 23:33-39 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: (THESE are the "overspreading of abominations!") 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. KJV I know this has been long, but THIS is how Yeshua` the Messiah can be the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27.
  2. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Psalm37:4. I just find it ludicrous how often you get me wrongly. Actually, I didn't mention the spreadsheet method of harmonizing the Greek texts for YOUR benefit at all. I figured that anyone reading along could try it for themselves. I already KNEW you wouldn't because you're a nay-sayer. That's your choice ... and your loss. (Sigh. Baseball allegories.) Yes, really, of COURSE I did. For verses 1 through 4, HOWEVER, He had pretty well silenced the rich by what He said about the widow with her two coppers and GENEROUS giving. Besides, you're only ASSUMING that Yeshua` was speaking to them when He said, "Truly I say to you..."! Did it ever occur to you that a person couldn't adorn the Temple proper with their gifts? They could only embellish the additional buildings that King Herod built! If they had tried to embellish the Temple proper, they would have been struck as dead as the man who reached out his hand to steady the ark that was being carted back to the Tabernacle in David's day! That's why they had made a "treasury" (an "owtsaar") at least by Joshua`s time! They were already on their way out of the Temple! In fact, even the Temple treasury was not in the Temple proper! Did YOU ever think to look into the contexts of the other accounts? Mark 12:41-13:2 41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living. 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.... KJV Whether the P'rushiym and the Ts'duwqiym (Pharisees and Sadducees) and the Torah copiers called Him "Teacher" or not, He can only be one's true Teacher if that one is TEACHABLE! (Kinda like THIS conversation we've been having.) They may have called Yeshua` "Teacher" snidely, but then so did His disciples in earnest - His students who followed their Teacher wherever He went. You DO know that this is what "disciple" means, right? Other Greek teachers had had disciples just like our Lord had. They were students who lived and stayed with their teachers or mentors until such time as the teacher or mentor thought they were taught enough to be teachers themselves. Aristotle was such a teacher as were Plato and Socrates.
  3. Salvation?

    Shalom, to all. I quote Miss Muffet because of all the answers I've seen in this thread, THIS is the answer that bears repeating. Simply speaking, there are two sorts of people in this world: (1) Those who are trying their best to be righteous for God, and (2) those who know that there is NO WAY that they can be righteous enough for God. The first group tries their best to do what God wants them to do to be righteous. They will often believe that if their good deeds outweigh their bad deeds, then God will except them. The second group understands that God is holy and perfectly righteous. They may even understand that God is TIMELESS, ETERNAL, and INFINITE, and sees all of time at once, past, present, and future! They correctly reason that their bad deeds, even if there was only one of them, would be too much for a perfectly righteous God to accept, and they humbly come to God for His intervention in their lives. Here's Yeshua`s parable on the topic: Luke 18:9-14 9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. KJV The Paruwsh or "Pharisee," which means "Separatist," thought his good deeds - fasting twice a week, giving 10% (and more) of all he possessed, and not being an extortioner, an unjust person, an adulterer, or a publican - was enough to ingratiate himself with God. The publican understood that he could NEVER do enough to ingratiate himself with a perfectly righteous God. He beat upon his breast and said, "God be merciful to me a sinner." He fell on the mercy of a loving God. HE was the one who went down to his house JUSTIFIED! God stepped in and did for him what no one else could do; He DECLARED him to be "righteous!" When the rich man came to Yeshua`, this conversation occurred: Matthew 19:16-26 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. KJV Technically, the correct word for this process of God stepping in and performing the impossible for a person and declaring him to be "righteous," is "justification," not "salvation." Paul talks about this process in 2 Corinthians 5: 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (traded places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (trading places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ (God was in the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself (trading places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (trading places). 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (on the Messiah's behalf), be ye reconciled to God (trade places with God). 21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. KJV The words translated "reconciliation" and "reconciled" are... NT:2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'); from NT:2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor: KJV - atonement, reconciliation (-ing). NT:2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so); from NT:2596 and NT:236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference: KJV - reconcile. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) And, verse 21 IS this exchange: God made the Messiah to be our sin (even though He had no sin himself); so that... We could be made the righteousness of God in the Messiah. When God looked at the cross, He did not see His Son; He saw "SIN!" OUR SIN! And, He poured out on His Son His wrath against sin! Now, to those who are born again, He will not see US as the sinners that we are; He sees "HIS SON'S RIGHTEOUSNESS" - "HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" IN HIS SON! This is the exchange that makes God's justification of an individual acceptable to a perfectly righteous God. THEREFORE, We don't do righteous deeds to be accepted by God. Instead, we are justified by God and accepted so that He may give us His Holy Spirit and then HIS power is demonstrated in us unto good works! The good works - the good deeds - the righteous deeds we may perform (through the power of the Holy Spirit of God) are the EVIDENCE that God has already justified us! True repentance is turning to God for HIS intervention on our behalf, since there's no good in us to ingratiate ourselves to Him! We TRUST Him to do what He said He would do for us! That is our FAITH! It's nothing that we have; it's all our trust in the God who can do for us what we can't do for ourselves! There's no power in faith; the power is in the One in whom our faith is placed! It's ALL of Him and nothing of ourselves!
  4. Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture

    Shalom, n2thelight. See? Even your question is bogus! The word "angels," in the OT the word is "mal`akhiym" and in the NT the word is "aggeloi," means "MESSENGERS!" Typically, for one to understand a messenger, they need to be able to speak to us in our language. Therefore, it is most likely that these "messengers" would be sent looking like human beings. They may have even BEEN human beings! HOWEVER, the word "seraf" ("seraph") means a "burning one," and frequently it is pictured as a snake with four wings! A "keruv" ("cherub") is an OX with six wings, having four faces! It is seen standing on two legs with "straight feet," and having "hands" under their wings. So, what are YOU thinking they had? "Came down from heaven" simply means that they came down from the "sky"; it does NOT mean that they came down from "God's abode!" Also, if they are "air-breathers" or "souls," they don't HAVE a body; they ARE a body! You've got to have a HUGE batch of preconceived notions to think you've received ANY information on "angels" from the Scriptures YOU'RE investigating! And, if you're going to pull Jeremiah 4 out of your hat again, then, yes, it IS misinterpreted! You have no "eyes to see" if you think that Jeremiah 4 is talking about ANYTHING other than the invasion from Babylon that Jeremiah experienced!
  5. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Psalm37:4. As are you, "bro'!" You're NOT going to have the "last word" when you've just VILIFIED a brother! As far as "not needing to do a spreadsheet or digging up the original Greek on all 3 discourses to figure and harmonize what Christ was telling us in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21," I will continue to do so at my leisure. It's MY way of having fun! Don't like it? Too bad. The thing you've got to ask yourself is this: WHEN did these individual events take place that day? YOU claim that He said Luke's account IN the Temple, but the other two accounts say that He was saying this to them ON THE WAY OUT as they were showing Him the buildings of the Temple! THEY - these disciples - were the "SOME" of Luke 21:5! It's obvious to me that shocking statements are made once, because only the first time it's said will it have the same impact. Therefore, the statement that Yeshua` made about "not one stone left upon another stone" was said once. This DEFINITELY ties the three accounts together at that point. Therefore, ... time(Matthew 24:2) = time(Mark 13:2) = time(Luke 21:6). THAT MUCH was said on the Temple grounds while they were walking away. Matthew's and Mark's accounts then tell us that TIME PASSED! So, in Matthew 24:3 and following, and in Mark 13:3 and following, the scene has changed from the Temple grounds to the Mount of Olives, a short walk out of Jerusalem. Luke's account simply doesn't go into where what was said and when! There is a GAP in the timing between Luke 21:6 and 7. Sure, they asked Him, but did they ask Him that immediately (as the English implies) or was it asked LATER? YOU CAN'T GO BY THE ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS! The Greek texts are the safest way to go because they will give you the nuances of what was said where and when. Yeshua`s policy by that point in His ministry was NOT to share all with the general public. He told HIS DISCIPLES - HIS STUDENTS - what was important, not just anybody, and certainly not the religious leadership at the time! They deserved what they were about to get! By the way, He was HIS DISCIPLES' "Teacher" (Luke 21:7). It's just "CONVENIENT" to say Luke's account was said at a different time because some don't like to think that Luke's account of verses 20-23 reflecting Matthew's account of verses 15-21 or Mark's account of verses 14-19! Luke 21:20-23 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. KJV Matthew 24:15-21 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. KJV Mark 13:14-19 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. KJV
  6. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shabbat shalom, Montana Marv. You said, "Scripture says we as the Bride will reign with Him (2 Tim 2:12)," but you need to consider a few things: First, was Paul actually talking about "the Bride?" 2 Timothy 2:8-13 8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David (the Messiah from the seed of David) was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ (the Messiah) Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. KJV Was he talking about "the church" or about "the elect," the "chosen seed?!" (Like the song "All Hail the Power" says, "Ye chosen seed of Israel's race....") Was he talking about the "bride of Christ" or was he talking about the "children of Israel?" Who was Paul if not a (grand)son of Israel? And, Timotheos, a son of his mother and grandmother, who were Jewesses, was also considered a (grand)son of Israel! Acts 23:6-7 6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. 7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided. KJV Philippians 3:3-6 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. KJV Acts 16:1-2 1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus (Timothy), the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek: 2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. KJV 2 Timothy 1:1-5 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; 5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. KJV 2 Timothy 3:14-15 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures (the Tanakh, the OT), which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ (the Messiah) Jesus. KJV Be careful what you choose to believe because of how you understand the Scriptures. If you don't start from a right set of facts, you won't arrive at right conclusions.
  7. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Psalms37:4. You're cute, but wrong. When one calls another a "preterist," it is a default assumption that it means a "full preterist." One does NOT assume a "partial preterist." You don't YET understand that a "partial preterist" can be "premillennial!" The proof is in what you say next: See? YOU are still thinking I believe that the second coming happened in 70 A.D! What gall! You go off half-cocked, thinking you know me, and you don't have the first clue what I believe! More proof: Stop. Rewind. First, let me spell it out to you: *** I believe that the Lord Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, will return bodily in the near future. I believe in His FUTURE Second Coming. Only certain parts of the Olivet Discourse have already been fulfilled in the first century. Have you EVER harmonized the Olivet Discourse in the Synoptic Gospels in the Greek BEFORE translating into English? No? Well, I have. It's a wonderful task that one might actually enjoy, but he or she needs to have a rudimentary understanding of the Greek language, although much of it can be treated quite mechanically. For instance, to tie in the different verses of Matthew 24 with those of Mark 13 and those of Luke 21, one can look for the same Greek phrases and words that occur in the same order and use these locations as links to tie the three passages into one. These passages are the three ways that the authors remembered how that day went. I did it with the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet program using a new line for each Greek word in each verse, having columns for Matthew's, Mark's, and Luke's accounts. At least two of these accounts of the Olivet Discourse were translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but our oldest versions of all three of these accounts are in Koinee Greek (using the "ee" for an eta), which has EIGHT cases, by the way. It's CLASSICAL Greek that only has the five cases. You neglected to mention the ablative, locative, and instrumental cases. Now, listen carefully to what the disciples asked Yeshua` that day: Matthew 24:3 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)? KJV Mark 13:3-4 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? KJV Luke 21:7 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? KJV In Greek, they said, Kata Maththaion 24:3 3 Katheemenou de autou epi tou Orous toon Elaioon proseelthon autoo hoi matheetai kat' idian legontes, Eipe heemin pote tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion tees sees parousias kai sunteleias tou aioonos. UBS Greek New Testament Kata Markon 13:3-4 3 Kai katheemenou autou eis to Oros toon Elaioon katenanti tou heirou epeeroota auton kat' idian Petros kai Iakoobos kai Iooannees kai Andreas, 4 Eipon heemin pote tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee tauta sunteleisthai panta. UBS Greek New Testament Kata Loukan 21:7 7 Epeerooteesan de auton legontes, Didaskale, pote oun tauta estai, kai ti to seemeion hotan mellee tauta ginesthai; UBS Greek New Testament It may LOOK like they said three different things, but actually all three accounts were correct. The authors just remembered different PARTS of what was said that day. Assuming no errors because of Divine inspiration, they link together on the underlined portions: Matthew's and Mark's accounts link on the phrases "Eip(e/on) heemin pote tauta estai" and "kai ti to seemeion," and Mark's and Luke's accounts link on the phrases "kai ti to semeion" and "hotan mellee tauta." They all three link on the one phrase, "kai ti to seemeion." See how they may be harmonized? So, they actually asked THREE things: 1. When would these things (that He just mentioned while looking at the buildings of the Temple on their way out of town) happen? 2. What shall be the sign of your coming? and 3. What shall happen at the end of the age? They were concerned about all three: What would happen in their lifetime, what would happen when the Master returned, and what would happen at the end of the age. Yeshua` answered ALL THREE of these concerns! And, the way to tell which were which was in how He addressed these concerns. When He was talking DIRECTLY to His disciples using the pronouns humeis (you as subject), humoon (of/from you), humin (to/for/with/by/in/at you), or humas (you as direct object) or using verbs that ended with "-te" or "-the" (second person, plural forms), He was talking about THEIR future in the first century, our PAST! Therefore, the portions about not coming down from the rooftops or not coming into the city from the fields were about THEM in the FIRST CENTURY! Even much that had to do with false messiahs were about the First Century, such as the Bar Kokhba Revolt in 132-135 A.D, although false messiahs would continue throughout the period of the Diaspora and the times of the Gentiles! You can't tell me that Yeshua` was ONLY talking about OUR future shortly before and during when He returns! That's just short-sighted!
  8. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Psalms37:4. Blah, blah, blah. All that to say, "I'm not listening.... It's 'souls!'" If you think I base everything on the Greek Dictionary from Strong's Concordance, you are GREATLY MISTAKEN. I know the limitations of Strong's, for ALL human works are fallible, no exceptions! I use it solely as a "common denominator" between reasoning philosophies. Those who have not studied the original languages will have at least a rudimentary acceptance of Strong's Concordance and its dictionaries and be able to use the numbering system (which is used between several study helps based on the King James Authorized Version of the Bible) to look up the words for themselves and confirm what I'm claiming. HOWEVER, there's no cure for stubbornness. One must have a teachable mind to learn a thing. That's fine; we all learn at different rates as the Holy Spirit reveals truth to us. It's just not your time, yet.
  9. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, again, Psalms37:4. First, let's get one thing straight, name-caller: I am NOT a "preterist," in the sense of a "full preterist." I am a "PARTIAL preterist," and I would appreciate you calling me such. It's an IMPORTANT DISTINCTION! Second, you need to see that the key to understanding the Olivet Discourse is in the GREEK PRONOUNS. The reason why I did not include Luke 21:25-27 is because the pronouns CHANGED by then! When Yeshua` was talking directly to His students, His disciples, he addressed them directly with the pronouns translated into Greek as "humeis" and the various forms of that word. When the pronouns are second-person plural, He is talking directly to His students about THEIR immediate future (1st Century); when He is talking with other pronouns, such as "THEY" in verse 27 above, He is talking about the DISTANT FUTURE (21st Century or beyond).
  10. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Psalms37:4. When someone is looking right at a truth in Scripture and can't see that truth, what do YOU call it? I call it "blindness." I'm not trying to be mean; I'm just calling a spade a spade. Look, I'll try to spell it out for you ... AGAIN. First, don't limit yourself to a limited definition of the term "air-breather." An "air-breather" is "ANY CREATURE (CREATED BEING) that breathes air!" That includes MAN! Genesis 2:7 says, Genesis 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. KJV This is the first occurrence of the word "soul," and it is also the FIFTH occurrence of the Hebrew word "nefesh" which was translated as "soul." Here are the first four: Genesis 1:20 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. KJV Genesis 1:21 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. KJV Genesis 1:24 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. KJV Genesis 1:30 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. KJV The words that are in bold-faced type are the words translated from "nefesh." The Hebrew word "nefesh" is said to mean, OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead (-ly), desire, [dis-] contented, fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, would have it. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) This is the noun form of the verb naafash: OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air): KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed). (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) Both words are technically spelled the same in Hebrew, "nun-fei-shin." However, with vowel pointing, OT:5315 is spelled "nun-segol-fei-segol-shin," and OT:5314 is spelled "nun-qamets-fei-patach-shin." (Also, "nun" is pronounced "noon," "fei" is pronounced "fay," and "shin" is pronounced "sheen.") Which is more important, the Hebrew word in the original text or the English word used to translate that Hebrew word into English versions? The ORIGINAL manuscript was declared to be inspired by God. NO English translation, no matter how good it is, is declared to be inspired! To the contrary, EVERY English translation (or translation into ANY other language) is GUARANTEED to have errors because it is a product of human beings! Now, this verse, Genesis 2:7, is one of the few verses that are directly quoted into the New Testament's Greek: 1 Corinthians 15:45 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. KJV And, this word "soul" is translated from the Greek word "psucheen," the accusative form of "psuchee," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-eta": NT:5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'); from NT:5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from NT:4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from NT:2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew OT:5315, OT:7307 and OT:2416): KJV - heart (+-ily), life, mind, soul, us, you. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) And, again, this is the noun form of the verb psuchoo, technically meaning "I-breathe": NT:5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho); a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from NT:4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of NT:109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively): KJV - wax cold. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) So, the Greek of the New Testament reflects the Hebrew of the Old Testament, and BOTH words mean "a breathing creature," "a breather," or more specifically, "an air-breather." Like it or not, that's the way it is! This is not subjective, open to interpretation. It is OBJECTIVE and ABSOLUTE! And, that's the word (in plural) that was used in Revelation 20:4, psuchas. If you don't like it, tough. That's the way it is ... PERIOD. These "souls" or "air-breathers" are already BREATHING AIR! Yochanan (John), who was a Jew himself, probably used the Aramaic or Hebrew word "nfashiym," the plural form of "nefesh." He certainly did NOT use the English word "souls!"
  11. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, "seeking the lost." It's not about "the dead in Christ," or rather, "the dead in the Messiah"; it's about "the souls under the altar!" These "souls" were NO LONGER DEAD! They had already been raised to life! However, even the dead in Christ are raised to life when the Messiah returns and they will "live and reign with Him for a thousand years (and more)." See Rev. 20:4 and Rev. 22:5.
  12. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Zoltan777. First, you need to be made aware that Matthew 24:15-21 is NOT about our future; it was about the DISCIPLES' future there in the first Century A.D! How can you hope to get the right interpretation of Scripture when you start with the wrong premise?! These points were indicative of the Jewish nation in 70 A.D: 1) Fleeing to the mountains would avoid the persecution to follow 2) Fleeing across the rooftops would keep one out of the enemy's crosshairs 3) Staying out of town in the field to avoid the enemy's advances 4) Why, at this time of the Geneva Convention, would it be more dreadful for pregnant and nursing mothers? 5) Why should winter make a difference in this time of cars and trucks with heaters? 6) Who but the Jews would even CARE if this took place on the Shabbat or the Sabbath?! These points were important in the FIRST Century, NOT THE TWENTY-FIRST! And, that's the BEST reason why He did not "take up His people before all these happened!" Of COURSE, they had "to go through all these!" When one does a comparison verse by verse between Matthew 24 and Luke 21, one will discover that Matthew 25:13 compares to Luke 21:20: Luke 21:20-24 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. KJV This is talking about the time just before 70 A.D. when the Temple was destroyed and the children of Israel were deported in the Diaspora. "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think the prophecies must be fulfilled in the 'last days.'"
  13. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Psalms37:4. No, not amillennialism; it's still premillennialism. They are NOT "all synonyms!" Are you that confused? Are you that blind?! It's not "souls" (as most define the term), "spirits," or "ghosts!" They're "AIR-BREATHERS!" They're "BODIES" who breathe air once again on their own initiative! They are ALREADY RESURRECTED! Don't you get it, yet? They are NO LONGER DEAD!
  14. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shalom, "seeking the lost." Actually, resurrection is an act of Creation in which God re-creates the body so that it becomes a "soul" (an "air-breather") once again, having received God's "Spirit" ("wind") as a "puff" in his or her nostrils and beginning "to breathe" on his or her own. The soul is NOT independent of the body! Therefore, the "soul" is the combination of the "body" and the "breath," that "breath" coming from God's "wind." It's important to remember Yeshua`s words to Marta (Martha): John 11:23-27 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (thou art the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world. KJV So, it's not so much a hope in a general Resurrection; it's a belief in the MESSIAH YESHUA` who IS the Resurrection! who IS the Life! Resurrection can occur for ANYONE, AT ANY TIME, when Yeshua` says it's their time! Oh, and I forgot to mention the important, key factor in this Resurrection process: The POWERFUL MEMORY of an all-powerful, loving God, YHWH! Psalm 139:11-18 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! 18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. KJV THAT is how He puts us back together as we were before we died! THAT is how He keeps our continuity of thought and feelings alive! Oh, and one more thing: Don't you think that THROUGHOUT the Millennium the Messiah (God's Anointed), the Melekh (the King), could perform INDIVIDUAL resurrections? HE is the Resurrection and the Life!
  15. Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

    Shabbat shalom, Psalms37:4 (and to all). I wonder if your point of view might change if you realized that "soul" means "air-breather." Revelation 20:4 is saying that Yochanan (John) saw the AIR-BREATHERS of those who were beheaded; that is, they were ALIVE again! They were already RESURRECTED! What does that do to your premillennial (or even postmillennial) view of that verse?