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Retrobyter

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Retrobyter last won the day on December 14 2013

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About Retrobyter

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  • Birthday 10/28/1957

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  1. Shalom, R. Hartono. I've been following along, and I'm confused by your response. Are you arguing AGAINST just anyone living and reigning with the Messiah? that they MUST be among the "tribulation saints who DID come out of great tribulation and who WERE beheaded" to be among those who will live again and reign with Him? OR, are you saying something else? I also had a more fundamental question: Is English your primary language? I'm just curious. How you respond (if you choose to do so) will help me communicate with you better. Logic is key to understanding what is going on in Revelation 20:4-6, and one must remember that we are talking about HEBREW logic, not ENGLISH logic - hiygaayown. That is, one must think like a Hebrew to rightly understand the verse, because although we have this verse in Greek, it was written first by a Jew (Yochanan - "John") who may have originally written it in Aramaic, or at least THOUGHT in Aramaic and translated it into Greek to write it down for those in Asia Minor. Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The first part, verse 4, is a SPECIAL INSTANCE of those who will live and reign with the Messiah; the second part, verse 6, is a GENERAL CASE in which ALL who participate in the First Resurrection will live and reign with the Messiah. John was just saying that the ones who were beheaded will have pre-eminence in the reign with the Messiah. Others will have lesser positions.
  2. Shalom, Diaste. "The patience of the saints"?! It's more about the patience of the Lord being pushed to the limit! It's hard to see it in the translation, but the enunciation of verse 10 is with the accent on the "will": 2 Peter 3:8-10 (KJV) 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Think of the "But" as a "Nevertheless," a "However," or a "Just the same." Well, yes ... and no! Don't you think that God can show His wrath at different times and in different ways? Let's go back to Revelation 20: Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV) 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Do you see the two different "fires" here? They also appear in 2 Peter 3. As I've said before, the Arabs have a tradition that says that Adam, the first prophet of God, predicted that there would be both deluges of water and fire. And, it would seem that Kefa ("Peter") knew the same thing - a global Flood in Noach's time, and a global Fire in haSatan's revolt. While not much is said in Revelation 20 about the first, global Fire (other than "from whose face the earth (the dirt) and the heaven (the sky or the atmosphere) fled away, and there was found no place for them"), two different "fires" are present here separated by the GWTJ. The same is true for 2 Peter 3: 2 Peter 3:7-12 (KJV) 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (Greek: eis = "into") the day of judgment and perdition (Greek: apooleias = "destruction") of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away (this is LITERALLY "passing by," not "being destroyed"!) with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Both "fires" are here, but they are (for our Western way of thinking) out of order. The global fire is in verses 10 and 11, but the Lake of Fire is the result of the "Day of Judgment and Perdition of ungodly men," or the GWTJ itself. (They're not truly "out of order"; it's just that the more general is listed before the more specific. This is a typical for Hebrew literature.) First, you answered your own question: "Where is another scriptural statement that compares this with the Millennium?" "Psalm 90:4!" God does NOT "operate outside of time!" That's an old-wives' fable. He CREATED time by merely creating matter and movement! That's the nature of the space-mass-time continuum! He can make events move faster or slower with respect to time, but He does not CHANGE time! The movement of the subatomic particles and the movement of the planets and moons are HIS orderly arrangement! You can choose to see what you want to see, but it doesn't change the facts! I perceive that in all things modern Christianity is FAR TOO ALLEGORICAL for its own good! As the kids said when my children were growing up, "whatever."
  3. Shalom, Diaste. Just get the idea that "Matthew 25 is about the GWTJ" out of your head. It's not about that judgment. If you want a Scripture passage about the GWTJ, simply look at 2 Peter 3:3-13: 2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV) 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (This is the philosophy of uniformitarianism.) 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (the first heavens and the first earth) 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the FLOOD) 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, (the second heavens and the second earth) by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This IS a statement about the GWTJ.) 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (This IS a statement about the Millennium.) 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (This is the FIRE that shall occur just prior to the GWTJ.) 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (the third heavens and the third earth) Much of this chapter parallels Revelation 20 and 21.
  4. Shalom, again, Diaste. I would be remiss to neglect telling you that the Millennium will be FULL of judgments and resurrections on a personal scale! What do you think an Israeli King is? He is a JUDGE! Part of his job is to be the nation's "supreme court judge," making the decisions that lesser judges will have to refer to him. This will be true for Yeshua` the Messiah when HE become "haMelekh Yisra'el" or "the King of Israel." This will not only be a Judge for the nation Israel, but for all the nations He conquers or annexes as He becomes "World Emperor" ("King of kings!") When His disciples were with Him in His First Coming (His First Advent), He gave them power as human beings to "raise the dead!" Matthew 10:5-7 (KJV) 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. ..." Do you think it would be any different when they themselves are raised from the dead? Paul tells us this: 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (KJV) 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural (an air-breathing) body; it is raised a spiritual (a wind-blasting) body. There is a natural body (an air-breathing body), and there is a spiritual body (a wind-blasting body). 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (Gen. 2:7 Hebrew "nefesh" = "an air-breathing creature"); the last Adam was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
  5. Shalom, Diaste. There are both internal evidences and external evidences that Matthew 25 is about a war tribunal. First, the internal evidences are ... 1. This judgment is against NATIONS, not individuals. Matthew 25: (KJV) 31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them (the nations) one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." 2. When He addresses them, He addresses them as GROUPS of people. One of the reasons for KEEPING the KJV is that it shows the original division between number in the second person that the English language used to possess. The "thee's" and "thou's" and "thy's" and "thine's" are SINGULAR. The "ye's" and "you's" and "your's" and "yours's" are PLURAL. These mirror the Greek word, humin, and the 2nd-person, plural verbs ending in "-te" and "-the": This is true for the sheep... Matthew 25:34-40 (KJV) 34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.' 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, 'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?' 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'" And, it is true for the goats... Matthew 25:41-45 (KJV) 41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.' 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, 'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?' 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.'" 3. When it comes to their sentencing, they are NOT "thrown into the Lake of Fire" at that time. No angels (messengers) pick them up and throw them in (at least, not at THAT time): Matthew 25:46 (KJV) 46 And these shall go away (Greek: apeleusontai, the future, indicative, middle voice, third person, plural of aperchomai = "to go away from" or "to depart" or "to go off") into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. There are also external evidences to which you even alluded when you said, "in the valley of decision": Joel 3:1-16 (KJV) 1 "For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given (traded) a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence ("pay me back for wrongs done to you")? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head ("I'll turn it around and pay YOU back for wrongs done to ME"); 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off:" for the LORD hath spoken it. 9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles (non-Israeli nations); Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12 "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about." 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. And, we know this is Yeshua` the Messiah doing the talking above because He has said, John 5:22-23 (KJV) 22 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." So, Yo'el's ("Joel's") prophecy in Joel 3 is also about such a war tribunal that shall occur when "when [Yeshua`] shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem!"
  6. Shalom, Diaste. Matthew 25, part of the Olivet Discourse given by Yeshua` before His death, is NOT about the Great White Throne Judgment. It shall occur at the BEGINNING of the Millennium after His Return! Observe: Matthew 25:31-33 (KJV) 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. This passage is talking about a WAR TRIBUNAL that He shall hold against those who fought against Him (or for Him) when He returned in His zeal to rescue and deliver His people Israel! This is talking about the valley of the King's judgment outside of Jerusalem in the Valley of Y'howshafat, also called the Kidron (Qidrown) Valley. When facing Jerusalem, the left is Gei-Hinnowm or the Valley of (the son of) Hinnom, where they have burned trash and executed criminals, and where children were once burned in sacrifice to Molech. On the right is the entrance to the Old City through the Golden Gate and to the Temple Mount.
  7. Shalom, R. Hartono. You're thinking two-dimensionally (which is a DIRECT result of all the time-line charts we were shown as kids or at least young Christians). In fact, time is the FOURTH dimension! There are three measurable dimensions in which we experience life: length, width, and depth (or height, depending on your perspective). We see these three dimensions because of our binocular sight (two eyes). However, when we have a particular 3-D scenario at one moment of time and then a second, slightly different 3-D scenario at the next moment in time, we are experiencing the FOURTH dimension - the SHIFT in 3-D along the "timeline." When we watch a ball bouncing across a room diagonally, we see the ball changing directions along the length of the room, along the width of the room, and vertically as it bounces up and down, but it takes the strobe effect of stop-action photography to see the ball's movement through time. Here's an example: bouncing ball strobe By MichaelMaggs Edit by Richard Bartz - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2880974 The point is this: The "Rapture" will be a GLOBAL event that occurs around the world such that all are gathered in a short amount of time. The thing to remember about this image (that I used to use as an avatar) is that movement is FROM the left to the right along the white lines. When Yeshua` returns, He will send out His messengers around the globe to gather His chosen ones - His elect - and gather them to Himself in the skies above Israel. The beheaded saints shall be resurrected WITH the rest of those in the First Resurrection! Revelation 20 is not JUST about the beheaded saints; John just makes it a point to say that they are INCLUDED in the First Resurrection! Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Verse 6 is about EVERYONE who shall participate in the First Resurrection!
  8. Shabbat shalom, R. Hartono. So, the "Church" (a misnomer, btw) will be in Heaven while Christ is reigning on earth for 1000 years? How shall we "ever (always) be with the Lord" THAT way?! (1 Thes. 4:17) First, I've got news for ya: WE are not the "Church," either! There's NO SUCH THING as a "Church, capital C, universal," as Moody Radio's Janet Parshall likes to say so often! There's only a local "church" in your area, and "churches," plural, found in the Scriptures! A "church," "ekkleesia" in Greek (using "e" for "epsilon" and "ee" for "eta"), means a "called-out" LOCAL meeting. It was also used for a town meeting (as a mob) in Acts 19:32, 39, and 41. Acts 19:21-41 (KJV) 21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome. 22 So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season. 23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way. 24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; 25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, "Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth. 26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: 27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth." 28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, "Great is Diana of the Ephesians!" 29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre. 30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not. 31 And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theatre. 32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together. 33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defence unto the people. 34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, "Great is Diana of the Ephesians!" 35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, "Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter? 36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly. 37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess. 38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another. 39 But if ye inquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly. 40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse." 41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly. The ONLY time there is a "general assembly" of all believers is found in the book to the Hebrews: Hebrews 12:18-24 (KJV) 18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Second, we'll be right here in the Messiah's Kingdom WITH HIM, helping Him to reign over this earth! As the Messiah's Kingdom grows throughout the Millennium, He shall deligate responsibility to us for the many different factions and towns and states and territories under His control. We'll always be checking in with Him to get our orders and report how the territory He has given us is coming along. A thousand years is, after all, a VERY LONG TIME! Furthermore, it shall not be static! There will be dynamic changes throughout that thousand-year period! Luke 19:16-19 (KJV) 16 "Then came the first, saying, 'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds." 17 And he said unto him, 'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.' 18 And the second came, saying, 'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.' 19 And he said likewise to him, 'Be thou also over five cities.' ..." And, one last thing: Our reigns, like Yeshua`s, shall NEVER END! They shall continue into eternity! Luke 1:30-33 (KJV) 30 And the angel said unto her, "Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." Revelation 22:1-5 (KJV) 1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner offruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. The Millennium is just the time that it will take to build His Kingdom and then turn it over to the Father: 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV) 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: (0) Christ the firstfruits; (1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
  9. Shalom, R. Hartano. Sorry, brother, but Yeshua` said there would be two general resurrections In John 5, and Paul added the "firstfruits" of Yeshua`s Resurrection to that in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28. John 5:19-29 (KJV) 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV) 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: (0) Christ the firstfruits; (1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1st General Resurrection) 24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (2nd General Resurrection) 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it ismanifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. So, there are NOT "three resurrections"; that is, "three general resurrections." There are only two. This was one of the first things I learned that weaned me away from the Pretribulational Rapture viewpoint. Coupling this with (1) the fact that "Heaven" doesn't really exist, because of the mistaken usage of the Greek word "ouranos" which simply means the "sky" and refers to the earth's "atmosphere," and (2) the fact that the description most people use for "Heaven" is really the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22, we can arrive at the conclusion that the First General Resurrection is of SUPREME importance! When we are resurrected, that which is called the "rapture" (Greek: harpageesometha = "will be caught away," not "up") will be a mass transit system to get us all to Jerusalem, Israel, for when the Messiah Yeshua` returns, He shall establish His Kingdom, the Kingdom of His father David! Luke 1:30-33 (KJV) 30 And the angel said unto her, "Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous, a transliteration of the Hebrew: Yeeshuwa`). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." While some buy into the idea that "Christians" shall be in "Heaven" during the Millennium and the "Jews" shall be on earth, doesn't it seem odd that we would be taken to "Heaven" only for Yeshua` to turn around without us and go back to earth to reign for a thousand years? And, should Yeshua` stay in "Heaven," then He has FAILED to fulfill the prophecies made to His own earthly family about a Kingdom of peace for them! Neither of these scenarios are acceptable. Furthermore, I would dearly like to be with my own family, the children of Israel, and talk to the saints, the heroes of the Tanakh (the OT)! I was always told in Sunday School that we would be able to walk right up to David or Joshua or Joseph and talk with them in "Heaven" (or rather, in the Kingdom of God). That, too, would be impossible if we are separated for the first 1000 years! Nope, Paul said, "...and so shall we ever be with the Lord!" That which people call "Heaven" (the description of the New Jerusalem), comes to US here on this earth (or actually, the New Earth, but not until AFTER the Millennium!
  10. Shalom, ekleipsis. (I've always transliterated because I've never been able to use real Greek letters in a font that's worked for all to read. Same for Hebrew.) Thank you for the additional information. I think it's important to cover all the angles (when possible), because it gives the reader that much more understanding of the original words. Most think the Tetragrammaton was pronounced "Yahweh" (although they will technically mispronounce THAT as "Yahway"), but we're not given a proper vowel pointing for the original Name. Instead, we were always given the vowel pointing for the word "Adonay" within the Tetragrammaton as a reminder of the tradition to SAY "Adonay" instead of attempting to say the Name, especially "in vain," and thus avoid inadvertently breaking the Third Commandment. Yet, even the simple shepherd boy David said the Name ALL THE TIME! So, this Jewish tradition is unfortunate. I personally believe that His Name should really be pronounced as it is at the end of names that include the Name, such as "Matittyahuw" ("Matthew") and "Eliyahuw" ("Elijah") and "Adoniyahuw" ("Adonijah") and "Yesha`yahuw" ("Isaiah"). That would give the pronunciation more of the "Yahuwh" or "Yahuwah" sound. I also really feel bad that, for all the book learning that Christian scholars go through, we are SADLY lacking in Hebrew GRAMMAR! Even the simple things, like the conjugation of a verb or the interpretation of vowel pronunciations to give person, gender, and number in the prefixes and suffixes are MISSING! Consequently, there are HUGE gaps in the knowledge of the intricacies of Hebrew names and phrases! Names were OFTEN taken from Hebrew phrases, for every name MEANS SOMETHING! EVERY WORD, noun or VERB or MODIFIER, in Hebrew has gender! They are ALL either masculine or feminine (or are left masculine to include both)! Unlike the Greek, the Hebrew language doesn't have a "neuter" gender. Something, too, that is connected to this is that most verbs in the masculine are talking about concrete actions. Feminine verbs usually are talking about abstract concepts. That's an important little tidbit that can steer someone in the right understanding of a particular verb! Also, nouns, verbs, and modifiers all must AGREE in gender and number! This ties the actor to the action, often clarifying who's doing what. In particularly unclear "action-actor-direct object" sentences, the word "et" (spelled alef-tav) will be added prior to the direct object, effectively pointing to the direct object. It doesn't translate into anything in the English language. I said all that to make two points: First, the Tetragrammaton ends in a "Hei," the fifth letter of the Hebrew alefbet ("alphabet"). This is often the ending that makes a word FEMININE (not necessarily the owner, but the word). Therefore, it may indeed be referring to the abstract concept of "giving breath" to things! Second, the Hebrew language is not so unstructured to say that "Yeshua`" ("Jeshua" or "Jesus") is the same as "Yehowshua`" ("Joshua" or "Jehoshua"). MANY well-meaning Christians (even Messianic Jews) make the mistake of thinking that "Yeshua`" means "YHWH shall save," but it DOES NOT! "Yehowshua`" does! "Yeshua`" has the "yod-" prefix which is the SECOND PERSON, MASCULINE, SINGULAR identifier! It means "HE-shall-save." Matthew 1:18-21 (KJV) 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = transliteration of Hebrew: Yeeshuwa` = "He shall save"): for he shall save his people from their sins." Yeshua` is NOT a "shortened form of Yehowshua`," as so many inaccurately claim! They are TWO DIFFERENT NAMES, meaning TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! And, the meaning of this name that Yeshua` received was NOT missed by those Aramaic- and Hebrew-speaking people He came to save! Psalm 37:39-40 (KJV) 39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble. 40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked (Hebrew: meershaa`iym, masculine, plural of raashaa`, an adjective meaning "evil" or "wicked"), and save them, because they trust in him. It's not "wicked [PEOPLE]"; it's "wicked [DEEDS]!" SINS!
  11. Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain. "Eternity in hell?" First of all, "hell" is the wrong word. The FINAL state of the wicked is the "Lake of Fire and Sulfur [Brimstone]" (or the "Lake of Burning Sulfur"), but, ... second, the REAL question is this: Do the wicked deserve "eternal PUNISHMENT!?" What exactly do the Scriptures say? Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV) 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death (Greek: thanatos = "dying") and hell (Greek: hadees = the "unseen"; the "grave") delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Verses 14 and 15 are the Second Death, but it is preceded by the Second General Resurrection, marked by the underlined text above. Well, we know that Yeshua` told us that HE would be the One to perform this Resurrection as well as the First General Resurrection when He comes back (His Second Advent): John 5:21-29 (KJV) 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he (the Father) given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (the First General Resurrection); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (or "the resurrection of condemnation, i.e., just before the final GWTJ," the Second General Resurrection). God said in His prophecy to Yesha`yahu ("Isaiah," who wrote it down), Isaiah 66:22-24 (KJV) 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. And, the "man," who was described as "a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: his body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude," told the prophecy to Daniel in chapters 10 through 12, said, Daniel 12:2 (KJV) 2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Paul said, 1 Corinthians 15:20-24 (KJV) 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. So, based on a compilation of all these views of the future punishment, can you see annihilation? I can't.
  12. Shalom, once again, DonkeySpeaksAgain. The word "soul" is another word that has undergone much transformation down through the millennia, but if one intends to use it correctly, one must go back to the original languages, particularly the Hebrew. I've said this before, but it is READILY seen in the creation of Adam. Genesis 2:7 (KJV) 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Here's the Hebrew (transliterated): Breeshiyt 2:7 (JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh, transliterated) 7 Vayyitser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah, vayyipah b'apaayow nishmat chayyim; vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah. So, the MAN is made "of-[the]-dust from the-ground," NOT "the BODY of the man!" That's an IMPORTANT distinction! And, it is consistent with the meaning of the word, "nefesh": 5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it. 5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed). So, the Hebrew word translated "soul" means "an air-breathing creature." In 1 Corinthians 15:45, Paul partially quotes Genesis 2:7: 1 Corinthians 15:42-45 (KJV) 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Here's the Greek of verse 45: Pros Korinthious A 15:45 (UBS Greek New Testament) 45 Houtoos kai gegraptai Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan; ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoopoioun. Therefore, we know that Paul (or at least a subsequent translator) equated the Greek word "psucheen" with the Hebrew word "nefesh." And, this also fits with its definition: 5590 psuchee (psoo-khay'). From psuchoo; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zooee, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay) -- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you. 5594 psuchoo (psoo'-kho). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aeer, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively) -- wax cold. 4154 pneoo (pneh'-o). A primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze -- blow. Compare psuchoo. 109 aeer (ah-ayr'). From aeemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. Respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient) -- air. Compare psuchoo. So, we're talking about a "soul" being an "air-breather," in both languages. Through the influence of Greek philosophical thought, we've come to regard the "soul" as an "immortal soul" - the essence of a person that lives beyond the body, either in "heaven" or in "hell," eternally. But, that is wrong, according to both languages and the Bible. How can someone live eternally as an "air-breather" without the body? This is why the resurrection is so important! First, we ARE our bodies, just as Adam was HIS body! We don't "have" a body! Second, to be a "soul," we must be made alive again to breathe air! THEN, we become "souls" again!
  13. Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain. One other thing about "heaven" or the "sky": There are actually 5 Greek words that were translated as "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenly," or other words, like "sky" and "celestial": "ouranos," "ouranios," "ouranothen," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios." "3770 Ouranios" is simply the adjective form of "3772 ouranos," meaning "of or related to the sky." "3771 Ouranothen" is a word meaning "from 3772 ouranos" or "from the sky." "3321 Mesouraneema" is a word meaning "middle of 3772 ouranos" or the "middle of the sky." (It's only found in Revelation 8:13; Revelation 14:6; and Revelation 19:17.) "2032 Epouranios" is an adjective form of "1909 epi" combined with "3772 ouranos" to make a word meaning "of or related to above-the-sky." I used to think that ... d First heaven, of clouds; second, of stars; third, God's abode. could refer to "ouranos," "mesouraneema," and "epouranios," in that order. But, it doesn't work so neatly. While we don't know enough about an "aggelos" or "angel" to judge how the word is used in Revelation 8:13 and 14:6, we DO know how the word is used in Revelation 19:17 where it's talking about the BIRDS flying "mid-sky." Thus, "mesouraneema" is still talking about "the first heaven of clouds," so to speak. From 1 Corinthians 15:40-41, we learn that "epouranios" (translated as "celestial") refers to the "second heaven of stars," for it calls some of these "epouranios" bodies the "sun," "moon," and the "stars."
  14. Shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain. Another word (as mentioned) for "heaven" in the OT was "shaamayim." This is a very interesting word. It is neither singular nor plural. It's in the DUAL number. 8064 shaamayim (shaw-mah'-yim). Dual of an unused singular shaameh {shaw-meh'}; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve) -- air, X astrologer, heaven(-s). Consider the following verse: 1 Kings 8:27 (KJV) 27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? The Hebrew is... Malakhiym A 8:27 (JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh, transliterated) 27 Kiy haa'umnaam yeesheeV Elohiym `al haa'aarets? hinneeh, hashaamayim uwshmeey hashaamayim lo ykhalkluwkhaa, af kiy habayit hazeh asher baaniytiy? The two phrases in this verse represent two different fields of duals. Contrary to Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Chaldee Languages which says, "the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve", I believe that hashaamayim is dual simply because there's a daytime sky and there's a nighttime sky. When one goes back to Genesis 1, one will find that "shaamayim" was the name given to the "raaqiya`," which is translated in some versions as an "expanse": Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV) 6 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven." And the evening and the morning were the second day. That was a horizontal dividing of the waters, btw. Here's the Hebrew: Breeshiyt 1:6-8 (JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh, transliterated) 6 Vayyo'mer Elohiym, "Yhiy raaqiya` b-towkh hammaayim, viyhiy mavdiyl beeyn mayim laamaayim." 7 Vayya'as Elohiym et haaraaqiya`, vayyaVdeel beeyn hammayim asher mittachat laaraaqiya` uwVeeyn hammayim asher mee`al laaraaqiya` vaayhiy keen. 8 Vayiqraa' Elohiym laaraaqiya` "Shaamaayim." Vayhiy `ereV vayhiy boqer yowm sheeniy. So, the "shaamaayim," with the definite article attached, "hashaamayim," is the name for "haaraaqiya`." That is, "heaven" with the definite article, "the heaven," is the name for "the expanse." Thus, this "expanse," separating the waters below the "expanse" from the waters above the "expanse," is this planet's ATMOSPHERE! That there is little waters above the "expanse" today is simply because of Noach's FLOOD in Genesis 7 through 9! Those waters came crashing down in the period of 40 days and 40 nights. IF that was indeed half of the waters of the surface of the earth, then we are talking about half of 332,500,000 cubic miles or 166,250,000 cubic miles of water! That's an average of 166,250,000 cubic miles / 40 24-hour days = 6,927,083.333 CUBIC MILES of water per day! Now, all of this was to show that if the "heaven" or rather the "heavens (2)" were the name of the expanse of gases that is today called the "atmosphere," then the "heavens of the heavens" would be the "expanse of the expanse" called the "expanse of the atmosphere," or "the rarification of the atmosphere," OUTER SPACE! In Greek, Paul used a word combining "epi" meaning "above" and "ouranos" meaning "sky," "epouranios" for OUTER SPACE! So, we might translate ... 1 Kings 8:27 (KJV) 27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the atmosphere and outer space cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
  15. Shabbat shalom, DonkeySpeaksAgain. Look, there are two important words that a person MUST understand from the original languages that will make a difference in how one defines everything else. The words are "heaven" and "soul." It took me a while to understand this myself, but I discovered the word "heaven" first: Let's start with the Greek (following all the links), since that's how I discovered the word: NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky. NT:3735 oros (or'-os). Probably from an obsolete oroo (to rise or "rear"; perhaps akin to airoo; compare ornis); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): -hill, mount(-ain). NT:142 airoo (ah'-ee-ro). A primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. Weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare naasaa') to expiate sin -- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up). OT:5375 naasaa' (naw-saw'). Or naacaah (Psalm 'eb: 'abad ('abad)) {naw-saw'}; a primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absol. And rel. (as follows) -- accept, advance, arise, (able to, (armor), suffer to) bear(-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honorable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield. NT:3733 ornis (or'-nis). Probably from a prolonged form of the base of oros; a bird (as rising in the air), i.e. (specially), a hen (or female domestic fowl) -- hen. Now, let's look at the following verses in Scripture: I had a Scofield Reference Bible, and the Strong's Concordance and Dictionary of the Greek Language. I used the Strong's Concordance and Dictionary of the Greek Language to look up all the occurrences of the Greek word above in the NT. Then, with the list of Scripture verses, I looked them ALL up in the NT of the Scofield Reference Bible (King James Version edition). Long ago, I learned about 2 Corinthians 12:1-4: 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV) 1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the dthird heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. And, I read in the center margin (page 1238) of the Scofield Reference Bible... d First heaven, of clouds; second, of stars; third, God's abode. So, this formula was locked into my brain before I was a kid of 17. During my search of all the Scriptures that use the Greek word above (ouranos), I came across this passage: Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV) 1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, "When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas." And he left them, and departed. Now, think about someone who knew and used Greek on a daily basis. I chose this portion because all four of the highlighted words above were forms of the same word, the word above, ouranos. Someone once tried to explain it to me this way: "Any word, in both Greek and English, can be used in several ways: So, sometimes it can mean one thing and at other times it can mean something else. It all depends on the context." That all sounds good, but look at the passage above! Where does the context change the meaning of the word? How does the word mean one thing only for the demand of the Jewish leaders and the word to mean something else by Yeshua` IN THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE?! In the first verse, the P'rushiym ("Pharisees," Separatists) with the Ts'duqiym ("Sadducees," Righteous Ones) used the word as meaning "God's abode": "Show us a sign from God's abode." But, Yeshua` used the word meaning the "heaven of clouds" or the "sky." HOWEVER, they didn't really use this word at all! They used the Aramaic or Hebrew word, shaamayim! Why would they use the Greek?! These leaders of the Jews certainly knew Aramaic at least, and probably used Hebrew, the "sacred tongue," for most Jewish dealings. Yeshua` Himself was (and is) a Jew, a child of Yhudah ("Judah"). I believe this passage was merely TRANSLATED into the Greek, and if "ouranos" was used for both meanings, SO WOULD HAVE BEEN "SHAAMAYIM!" I think the easier way to look at this passage is to simply note that Yeshua` used the word in a more naturalistic way than did the P'rushiym and the Ts'duqiym. In other words, He CORRECTED their usage of the word! In essence, they demanded Him to show them a sign from "ouranos" (or "shaamayim"), and He said, "Sure! Red sky (ouranos) at night is a sailor's delight; red sky (ouranos) at morning, sailors take warning!" Then, He told them that they weren't going to get anything more than that! There was another passage that stood out to me: 2 Peter 3:3-13. 2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV) 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (Greek: ouranoi = "skies") being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (Greek: ouranous = "skies," genitive case of ouranoi) and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. So, Peter (who was also a Jew) was saying that there were... the skies and earth before the Flood of Noach's day the FLOOD of Noach's day the skies and earth which are now, after the Flood but before the Fire the FIRE of the LORD'S day the skies and earth after the Fire, "wherein dwelleth righteousness." And, there's a Arabic tradition that says that Adam predicted two massive cataclysms: the Flood and the Fire. There are writings of a Moroccan Berber Muslim scholar and traveller by the name of Ibn Batuta (actually “Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Al Lawati Al Tanji Ibn Battuta”) in the 1300s that claim that the pyramids were created PRIOR to the Flood. In fact, the Egyptian people used to call the Great Pyramid of Giza, “Enoch’s Pillar.” He said that Enoch (Chanokh), the seventh from Adam, heard prophecy from Adam about two judgments that were to come, one of water and one of fire. They built two such pillars, one of stone and one of brick, in which to house the wisdom and knowledge of the ancestors. If the one out of brick did not survive, the ancestors anticipated that the one out of stone would survive the Flood." Now, simply COUNT the number of times that "heavens" is used between these events: 1. the skies and earth before the Flood of Noach's day the FLOOD of Noach's day 2. the skies and earth which are now, after the Flood but before the Fire the FIRE of the LORD'S day 3. the skies and earth after the Fire, "wherein dwelleth righteousness." So, Peter also had "three heavens"; however, HIS "heavens" ("skies") were CHRONOLOGICALLY following one another, not SPATIALLY set apart from each other! His "third heaven," then, would have been after the Fire of the LORD'S day and surrounding the earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness." IF Paul's idea of the "third heaven" is the same as that of Peter's, then we've been wrong about this for as long as this theory (point d in Scofield's Reference Bible above) has been in existence! I'll let this sink in before going on.
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