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Retrobyter

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About Retrobyter

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  • Birthday 10/28/1957

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    http://jewishrootsofbibleprophecy.blogspot.com/

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    Wesley Chapel, Florida
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    Computers, Mathematics, Science, Languages (particularly Hebrew and Greek), and above all a correct understanding of G-d's Word.

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  1. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shabbat shalom, Marilyn. Where do you get this interpretation?
  2. Retrobyter

    God's sovereign choice

    Shabbat shalom, Michael37. HaSatan doesn't get cast out of some "Heaven"; he gets thrown out of THE SKY to the earth. His WINGS ARE CLIPPED! Revelation 12 is basically a history lesson in the form of a vision that gives the background for this grounding of haSatan.
  3. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shabbat shalom, Uriah. No, Revelation 16:15-16 is NOT the Second Coming. The Second Coming is in Revelation 11: Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV) 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven (loud voices in the sky), saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (God), and of his Christ (His Messiah/Anointed/Representative-King); and he shall reign for ever and ever." (I.e., He HAS returned!) 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped (bowed to) God, 17 Saying, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (in the sky), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. It's always amazed me that something so direct could be so misunderstood. Revelation 16:15 is Yeshua` warning those summoned unbiddingly to the Battle at Har-Megiddown (Tel-Megiddo) that He will steal their clothes and battle gear before they go to war to keep them from doing what they KNOW INSTINCTIVELY they should not do. You're not far off the mark. The order of events is... The Return (Second Coming) - Revelation 11 The Resurrection - Revelation 14:14-16 The Rapture (Taking His own to the Middle East) - Revelation 14:14-16 The Vengeance and Cleansing of the Messiah's Land - Revelation 18-19 They are events that are usually thought of as a single event, but this all takes time to accomplish.
  4. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shabbat shalom, Marilyn. That's a little far-fetched, according to the Scriptures. Go back to Gavri'el's words in Luke 1: Luke 1:30-33 (KJV) 30 And the angel said unto her, "Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." And, again, look at Yeshua`s own words: Luke 19:11-27 (KJV) 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, "'Occupy till I come.' 14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, "'We will not have this man to reign over us!' 15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, "'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.' 17 "And he said unto him, "'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.' 18 "And the second came, saying, "'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.' 19 "And he said likewise to him, "'Be thou also over five cities.' 20 "And another came, saying, "'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.' 22 "And he saith unto him, "'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant! Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury (interest)?' 24 "And he said unto them that stood by, "'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds!' 25 "(And they said unto him, "'Lord, he hath ten pounds!') 26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!'" This takes place when Yeshua` RETURNS to this earth! You don't think Yeshua` was "mistaken," do you? What about Matthew 25? Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV) 31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (in His brightness), and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations (not "individuals"): and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, "'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.' 37 "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, "'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?' 40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them, "'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren (i.e., the children of Israel, particularly the Jews), ye have done it unto me.' 41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, "'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not!' 44 "Then shall they also answer him, saying, "'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?' 45 "Then shall he answer them, saying, "'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.' 46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Was Yeshua` "wrong" about this prophecy? Please re-think your idea of Yeshua`s Kingdom.
  5. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shabbat shalom, Uriah. Let's look at the whole context of each: Revelation 9:13-21 (KJV) 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, "Loose the four angels which are bound in (Greek: epi) the great (large; wide) river Euphrates." 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Revelation 16:12-16 (KJV) 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. While the first may be precursor to the second, these are NOT descriptions about the same event. Again, there is MUCH that happens between and the first LEADS INTO the second.
  6. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Marilyn. I've got to say it, but say it quickly. We're not talking about GOD'S throne (that is, the Father); we're talking about the SON-of-God's throne! This is what happens if you take things too universally.
  7. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Uriah. Sure. Again, these are simply two verses that use the same words "lightnings, voices, thunders (or thunderings), and an earthquake." However, the similarities do NOT force the two verses to be about the same event! "Great hail" simply means "large hail." If you ask Google, "How big can hail get?" You'll get one response from www.nssl.noaa.gov that says: And, another response (to the question "Can hail kill you?") is this: So, ANY large hail would do in Revelation 11:19. Furthermore, the "earthquake" in that verse is just an earthquake. There's nothing in the verse that would suggest this is a special earthquake. However, in Revelation 16:18, we see the largest, most powerful earthquake EVER! In Revelation 11:19, we see just "large hail" ("great hail"); but in Revelation 16: we read, Revelation 16:21 (KJV) 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. Again, when Google is asked, "How big is a talent of hail?" Google gives Wikipedia's response: A conservative understanding of a "talent" is 75 pounds. The mathematician in me wanted to see just how big this hail would be. Knowing that the density of ice, less than that of water, is 0.916 gm/cc and that the volume of a sphere is V = 4/3 x pi x radius cubed, one gets general formulas for ice (in cubic centimeters)... a. Volume (in cc) = 1 lb x (453.592 gm/lb) / (0.916 gm/cc) for each pound of ice = 495.187 cc/lb Plugging in the weight of 75 lb into this result, we get 75 lb x 495.187 cc/lb = 37,139.1 cc. b. radius (in cm) = (Volume x 3/4 / pi)^(1/3) = (37139.1 cc x 3/4 / pi)^(1/3) = (8866.30 cc)^(1/3) = 20.6970 cm Converting that to inches, radius (in inches) = 20.6970 cm / (2.54 cm/in) = 8.14855 in. Thus, the diameter would be = 2r = 2 x 8.14855 in = 16.2971 in., and the circumference would be = 2r x pi = 51.1989 in. That is, the diameter would be 1 ft 4.3 in, and the circumference would be 4 ft 3.2 in! *** However, some versions put "one talent" at 100 lb! How would that differ? Plugging in the weight of 100 lb. into the result of equation (a.) above, we get 49,518.8 cc., and plugging that into (b.) above, we get 27.5964 cm. or 10.8647 inches for the radius. Thus, its diameter would be = 2r = 2 x 10.8647 inches = 21.7295 inches, and its circumference would be = 2r x pi = 68.2651 inches. That is, the diameter would be 1 ft 9.7295 in, and the circumference would be 5 ft 8.3 in! That's an ice ball nearly a foot and 9-3/4 inches across! Imagine one of THOSE coming crashing down on you! Even the former calculation gives you a foot and a third across! With either one, if you get hit from one of these babies, you're TOAST! HOWEVER, even in this terrible tragedy, it's NOT GLOBAL! The second hail storm, however, is far worse than the first hail storm. Remember, too, that chapter divisions are "made-up." That is, they were added many years AFTER the book was written! The original text did not have chapter divisions (or even verse divisions). Try to ignore them as you read Revelation.
  8. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Marilyn. Okay. Thanks for at least saying, "Hi," sis. I do love you in the Messiah (even if I don't always agree with you)! God bless you, sis.
  9. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Uriah. Absolutely. "Being moved out of place" is not the same as "fleeing away" and "not being found," even IF these verses were talking about "every island and every mountain" on the whole planet. Consider: All earthquakes have a focal point, an epicenter, where the slippage between techtonic plates occurred. An earthquake can trigger another such quake IF the point of contact is under enough stress that a vibration from the first has enough energy to push the point of contact in the second into kinetic energy from its potential energy state. It would take an extremely potent event to trigger EVERY potential epicenter into kinetic energy! I believe that such an event could occur, triggered by a near, passing meteor, asteroid or comet, but this will only happen ONCE. After that, there will be no more stress points under pressure. It is possible, however, for a SINGLE earthquake, if its magnitude is great enough, to relocate "every mountain and island" in a geographical area. People use mountains and islands (and coastlines) as landmarks for maps and directions. IF, however, those landmarks were MOVED, EVER SO SLIGHTLY, even global positioning systems would be interrupted! But, let's keep it simple. If a mountain is "MOVED," it is still a mountain, just in a different location. If a mountain "FLEES AWAY," then the mountain no longer exists. Islands are simply mountains under water. If a mountain is LEVELED, then it will cease to be a mountain and will become a rocky or hilly plateau or plain. So, just because both verses use the two words "mountain" and "island," these events are still two separate events. What is MORE important is that the breaking of the sixth seal gives rise to the seventh seal introducing the first five trumpet warnings - the first five "air-raid sirens." Look at them in sequence: Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV) 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [full] moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Revelation 8:1-13; 9:1-12 (KJV) 1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" 1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him [it] was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he [it] opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (Note: Both words mean "destruction," NOT "destroyer," as some claim.) 12 "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter." These events are sequential and are NOT reduplicating the seal judgments. In fact, the air-raid sirens begin to sound when the seventh seal is broken. These events ALL have a point in common: bodies from the sky fall to and strike the surface of the earth. The sixth seal are "HERALD meteorites!" They are the smaller bodies that fall from the sky. This is not actually talking about real "stars," as we know them today - huge bodies of hydrogen and helium, each several times larger than the earth and generated by nuclear fusion! These are "asteres" that can be ANY body in the sky that gives off light! The first trumpet is hail, fire, and blood mixed together thrown to the ground! This may also be describing these "herald meteorites," but I think it goes farther than that. I believe this is the AFTERMATH of the meteorites striking birds, planes, helicopters, etc. Hail is made in thunderheads (cumulonimbus clouds) as water is pushed upward by updrafts that push it so far aloft that it freezes and falls as ice. It is then pushed upward again, and the ice grows on the existing ice, making them larger. Several times this cycle occurs until at last the ice is heavy enough to fall out of the cloud. The atmosphere will be quite unstable and therefore clouds, even thunderheads, are inevitable. The second trumpet is a mountain-shaped meteorite striking the sea. The third trumpet is a sputtering meteorite, sputtering like a torch, that contaminates the rivers and streams and all fresh water sources. It is named "Apsinthos," from which we get the word "absinthe." Note: This liqueur had been outlawed in the United States since 1912 until a new form was developed called "thujone-free" in 2007. It also has a very high rate of alcoholic content, 55% to 75% (110 to 144 proof). In any case, these may be the chemicals with which this meteorite contaminates the fresh water sources, making them cloudy and dangerous. The fourth trumpet is talking about the "nuclear winter" effect that such an event would have associated with it. There would be so much dust, smoke, and water in the air as to blot out the sun, the moon, and the stars for that third of the earth's rotation. The fifth trumpet is also a meteorite that falls and strikes the earth, only this meteorite has the key coordinates to the bottomless pit! It cracks open the pit and releases this antediluvial species of locusts that have stingers like those of scorpions. Also, the thing about disasters and warning sirens for those disasters is that one doesn't have to stop before another is started! I believe these will COMPOUND and the sirens will be blaring for quite a while!
  10. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Marilyn. I can see you don't want to talk to me, and that's fine. But, this is NOT RIGHT! The Messiah MUST reign in JERUSALEM and ON DAVID'S THRONE! There are MANY prophecies in the Tanakh (the OT) that DEMAND He do so or they make God out to be a liar! Read what Gavri'el (Gabriel) said to Miryam (Mary) again: Luke 1:30-33 (KJV) 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeeshuwa`). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (And you have a wrong understanding of "third heaven." It's a third sky CHRONOLOGICALLY, NOT SPATIALLY! Read 2 Peter 3:3-13.)
  11. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Uriah. Sorry, bro', but Revelation 6 and (Isaiah 34, 63, and Revelation 19) are TWO separate events (periods), but BOTH of them occur BEFORE the 1,000 years, and the Messiah does indeed return between these events! When the Messiah returns, the FIRST 1,000 years of His reign begins. That's a THOUSAND YEARS!!! In point of fact, the "THOUSAND YEARS" are DEFINED BY the locking away of haSatan in the Bottomless Pit (the Abussos, which is Greek for "no bottom," or Abyss)! That event begins the "thousand years"; the period of a "thousand years" ends when haSatan is freed. And, a "thousand years" is a VERY LONG TIME! JUST THINK ABOUT THAT! Where was the United States of America a thousand years ago? What was society like in 1018? Henry III of the Holy Roman Empire had just been born (on my birthday) the year before! Furthermore, AFTER the 1,000 years, with haSatan freed, he begins his campaign to gather an army for one last stand against God's Messiah, and then the Global Fire occurs. It's AFTER the Global Fire, the Great White Throne Judgment occurs (with the guilty thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur), and THEN the New Earth and the New Sky are re-formed and the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth. I know we live in an "instant" world where everything has to be done quickly like at a fastfood restaurant, but God's plan for the future isn't "instant." There's MUCH yet to be fulfilled!
  12. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, again, Marilyn. You've made a serious error that must be corrected. You've separated "Mount Zion" from the city. However, the Greek uses them together in the same case and in the same way! They BOTH are descriptions of the ONE New Jerusalem! Just as you have separated these terms, you've separated God's people! THAT'S what makes this so serious! Your teaching above is a DIRECT POLAR OPPOSITE to the best teaching in the Messianic Jewish synagogues: "We are ONE NEW MAN in the Messiah!" Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV) 11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul is writing) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ (separated from the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God ([having] no God) in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the blood of God's Messiah). 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) himself being the chief corner stone (the head angle stone); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Paul is NOT telling them there are three groups of people; he is telling them there are TWO groups: the Uncircumcision and the Circumcision, those far off and those who are nigh (close/near), those who are strangers and foreigners and those who are fellowcitizens with the holy ones who are also of the household of God. Through God's MESSIAH - God's ANOINTED - God's CHOICE for King - both have access to the Father by the Spirit. We don't come out of the Gentiles and out of the children of Israel to become the "Church"; we come out of the Gentiles to become children of Israel! That's a VERY IMPORTANT distinction! What we also find is that those who were "left desolate" also regain their status as "children of Israel" when they recognize Yeshua` as God's Messiah! Now, let's look at Hebrews 12:22 in the Greek; look at the endings and their close proximity: Pros Hebraious 12:22-24 (UBS Greek New Testament) 22 Alla proseleeluthate Zioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ieerousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, 23 paneegurei kai ekkleesia proototokoon apokegrammenoon en ouranois, kai Kritee Theoo pantoon, kai pneumasi dikaioon teteleioomenoon, 24 kai diatheekees neas mesitee Ieesou, kai haimati hrantismou kreitton lalounti para ton Abel. 22 Alla = 22 But proseleeluthate = you-are-in-the-process-of-coming-to Zioon = Tsiown (Zion) orei = a-mountain kai = and polei = a-city Theou = of-God zoontos, = living, Ieerousaleem = Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) epouranioo, = of-above-the-sky, kai = and muriasin = to-myriads aggeloon, = of-messengers, 23 paneegurei = to-a-festival-assembly kai = and ekkleesia = to-a-called-out-[group] proototokoon = of-firstborn apokegrammenoon = having-been-enrolled en = in ouranois, = skies, kai = and Kritee = to-Judge Theoo = God pantoon, = of-all, kai = and pneumasi = to-winds/breaths/attitudes dikaioon = of-justified-ones teteleioomenoon, = having-been-completed, 24 kai = 24 and diatheekees = of-a-covenant neas = new mesitee = a-mediator Ieesou, = of-Yeshua` ("Jesus") kai = and haimati = blood hrantismou = of-sprinkling kreitton = stronger-things lalounti = speaking para = than ton = that-of Abel. = Hevel ("Abel"). Don't you yet realize that the city IS a mountain?!!! It's 1,379.868687 MILES HIGH! I'd call that a "mountain," wouldn't you? Mount Everest is only 5.5 miles high! HAHAR TSIOWN = YERUSHALAYIM HACHADASHAH! They are NOT two different things! Notice, too, that there are other instances where the mountain is "confused" with the city, speaking of the future New Jerusalem: Isaiah 2:2-3 (KJV) 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. and Psalm 48:1-2 (KJV) 1 {A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah.} Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness. 2Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north (aligned with north), the city of the great King.
  13. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Marilyn. You shouldn't confuse the man. The word "epi" CAN mean "over," but the word CAN ALSO mean "upon," "on," "at," "by," "before," "against," "to," etc., depending on the context and the case, as Uriah has noted and as given in the Greek Dictionary of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible: 1909 epi (ep-ee'). A primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. Over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc. -- about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively). It's the case of the word which "epi" modifies that makes a difference in how it is interpreted into English: As my copy of the Beginner's Grammar of the Greek New Testament by William Hersey Davis (Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1999) says, "It is the case which indicates the meaning of the preposition, and not the preposition which gives the meaning to the case." (p. 44, section 74.) Frank Nelte (franknelte.net) said, Sometimes this prepositional adverb will be joined to the noun it modifies, such as "epourania" = "epi" + "ouranios" and "epigeia" = "epi" + "gee." Here's an apropos example: 1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (KJV) 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: somata epourania = "bodies of/from-above-the-sky"), and bodies terrestrial (Greek: somata epigeia = "bodies of/from-above-the-ground"): but the glory of the celestial is one (Greek: toon epouranioon = "the-ones of/from-above-the-sky"), and the glory of the terrestrial is another (Greek: toon epigeioon = "the-ones of/from-above-the-ground"). 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. This is a GREAT study in contrasts! Verse 40 uses these two words, considered adjectives, in the plural. My point is this: if "epigeia" refers to people "upon the ground," so the usage of the word "epi" can mean "upon" the ground, rather than "above" or "over" the ground. To confirm this usage in Revelation 5:10, the words following "epi" are "tees gees" ("the earth" or rather "the ground") and are in the GENITIVE CASE (see point "C)" above). Therefore, the words are translated correctly when MOST of the versions have the words "upon the earth" or more simply "on the earth" (although I'd prefer "upon the ground" because many today confuse "the earth" with the whole planet), NOT "over the earth" or "above the earth."
  14. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Uriah. Sorry for getting back to you late. Yesterday was a busy day at work, and I fell asleep early. No, there's not two different skies, but the event in Revelation 6 is like that of an atomic bomb! (Please note: In saying that, I am NOT saying that is WAS an atom bomb.) It rushes away from a location purely because of the intensity of the energy released, but it SNAPS back once that energy has subsided. And, like the lightning that does the same thing on a minor scale, when the air snaps back, we hear it as thunder! It doesn't destroy the atmosphere, nor does the atmosphere "depart." In fact, the Greek word there is "apechooristhee" (using "oo" for omega and "ee" for eta) the aorist indicative passive of "apochoorizoo." It means to SEPARATE, to SPLIT, to REND (RIP) APART! However, it's the same sky that "replaces it." The English language has changed in the 400+ years that the King James Authorized Version has been in existence. Now, we think of the word "depart" to mean "leave." However, the key meaning of the word is in the root of the word, "part," which means to "separate." And, according to Answers.com, The prefix 'de' means a removal, separation, or to indicate privation. This gives the word emphasis. So, the English of the KJV is not wrong; we just don't understand it the way people used to understand it. I do not deny that this is the same event as in Revelation 19; however, let's look at Yesha`yahu's prophecy: Isaiah 34: 1-17 (KJV) 1 Come near, ye nations (Hebrew: gowyim = "Gentiles"), to hear; and hearken, ye people (Hebrew: uwl'umiym = "and-to-peoples"): let the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the Land") hear, and all that is therein (Hebrew: uwmlo'aah = "and-all-that-fills-it"); the world (Hebrew: teeVeel = "[the] inhabited-world"), and all things that come forth of it (Hebrew: vkhaal tse'etsaa'aayhaa = "and-all her-offspring"). 2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations (Hebrew: kaal hagowiym = "all the-Gentiles"), and his fury upon all their armies: (Hebrew: `al kaal tsVaa'aam = "against all [their]-armies") he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. All WHICH nations? His anger is upon all the nations who sent ARMIES against His people and His Land! 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. This is talking about run-off of their blood being like a downpour that causes gullying. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved (Hebrew: vnaamaquw kaal tsVaa' hashaamayim = "and-shall-rot all armies of-the-skies"), and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll (Hebrew: vnaagoluw kaseefer hashaamaayim = "and-shall-be-rolled-up like-a-scroll the-skies"): and all their host shall fall down (Hebrew: vkaal tsvaa'aam yibowl = "and-all their-armies shall-fall"), as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. 11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. 15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate. 16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. 17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein. Where is Yeshua`s first stop? It's at BOTSRAH ("Bozrah") in Idumea ("Edom"). There He begins His revenge! And, I should mention that this passage is talking about their "armies in the skies," their AIRFORCES! And, regarding reigning with Him, YES, it begins when Yeshua` returns and it lasts for that one thousand years that haSatan is incarcerated before the earth is renewed! (Gotta go. Shalom for now.)
  15. Retrobyter

    Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

    Shalom, Marilyn. Sorry, but in context, Hebrews 12:22-23 is talking about the fact that our future Resurrection is a "DONE DEAL!" It is most certainly NOT a literal thing that we "have come (or 'have already arrived,' as some would interpret this) to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem!" Look at the context: Hebrews 11:1-40; 12:1-29; 13:1-14 (KJV) 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (tents) with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ (the Anointed) greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruelmockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect (complete). 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses (those listed in chapter 11), let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. 18 For ye are not come unto the mount (Sinai) that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly (gathering) and church ("called-out" group) of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (made complete), 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire. 13:1 Let brotherly love continue. 2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. 5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." 6 So that we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me." 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. 10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. 11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without (outside) the camp. 12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without (outside) the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without (outside) the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. And, actually, "those in the Body of Christ," or rather "in the Body of the Messiah" (since the Greek word "Christos" is just the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Mashiyach"), are both RESURRECTED AND CHANGED! Those who are already asleep in the Lord are resurrected and changed while those who are still alive at the moment the Messiah returns are just changed, since they do not yet need a resurrection being still alive! Look at the Scriptures from that point of view: 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV) 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (unable to decay), and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible (able to decay) must put on incorruption (unable to decay ever again), and this mortal (able to die) must put on immortality (never able to die again). 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory (i.e., the Resurrection) through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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