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About Retrobyter

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  • Birthday 10/28/1957

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    Wesley Chapel, Florida
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    Computers, Mathematics, Science, Languages (particularly Hebrew and Greek), and above all a correct understanding of G-d's Word.

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  1. Retrobyter

    What is "Holiness?" What does it mean to be "holy?"

    Shalom, IvyRose. Ah, yes! But "peculiar" is another word - a DIFFERENT word than "holy!" 5459 Cegullaah (seg-ool-law'). Feminine passive participle of an unused root meaning to shut up; wealth (as closely shut up) -- jewel, peculiar (treasure), proper good, special. Places that use this word are... Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6; 14:2; 26:18; Psalm 135:4; and Malachi 3:17: Exodus 19:3-6 (KJV) 3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Deuteronomy 7:1-6 (KJV) 1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 14:1-2 (KJV) 1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. 2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. Deuteronomy 26:16-19 (KJV) 16 This day the LORD thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 17 Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice: 18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments; 19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. Psalm 135:1-21 (KJV) 1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the name of the LORD; praise him, O ye servants of the LORD. 2 Ye that stand in the house of the LORD, in the courts of the house of our God, 3 Praise the LORD; for the LORD is good: sing praises unto his name; for it is pleasant. 4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure. 5 For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods. 6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places. 7 He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries. 8 Who smote the firstborn of Egypt, both of man and beast. 9 Who sent tokens and wonders into the midst of thee, O Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his servants. 10 Who smote great nations, and slew mighty kings; 11 Sihon king of the Amorites, and Og king of Bashan, and all the kingdoms of Canaan: 12 And gave their land for an heritage, an heritage unto Israel his people. 13 Thy name, O LORD, endureth for ever; and thy memorial, O LORD, throughout all generations. 14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants. 15 The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 16 They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not; 17 They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths. 18 They that make them are like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them. 19 Bless the LORD, O house of Israel: bless the LORD, O house of Aaron: 20 Bless the LORD, O house of Levi: ye that fear the LORD, bless the LORD. 21 Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD. Malachi 3:16-18 (KJV) 16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. ALL of these passages use that same word above!
  2. Retrobyter

    What is "Holiness?" What does it mean to be "holy?"

    Shalom, BeyondET. Childish, but, really, who CARES what I say?!
  3. Retrobyter

    What is "Holiness?" What does it mean to be "holy?"

    Shalom, BeyondET. Interesting acronyms; however, did you get these acronyms from another source or did you come up with these yourself? Any word that starts with an H, any word that starts with an O, any word that starts with an L, and any word that starts with a Y would suffice to make an acronym for the word "HOLY." Some of those would be great, like you provided above, but SOME of those would be absolutely HORRENDOUS! I'm not even going to provide a simple example of a horrendous acronym, because to me it would be BLASPHEMOUS! However, I think you get the point. Look, I love you, BeyondET, and all the rest who visit these forums, but we have GOT to do better when it comes to nailing down what it takes for us to be "sanctified," to be "holy." WHY were the children of Israel told to be "holy?" Was it just to be obedient to God? OR, did HE have a reason for why they should be "holy?"
  4. Shalom, everyone! At shiloh357's suggestion, I'm starting this thread to give a BIBLICAL definition to "holy" and "holiness." See, I'm not a huge fan of the "science" of theology. Theology to me is like commentaries; just more human words to confuse the issues. As Paul said, Romans 3:4 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. So, let's get a running start: First of all, the Hebrew word translated as "holy" is "qaadowsh": 6918 qaadowsh (kaw-doshe'). Or qaadosh {kaw-doshe'} (spelled without the vav); from qaadash; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary -- holy (One), saint. 6942 qaadash (kaw-dash'). A primitive root; to be (causatively, make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally) -- appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy(-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify(-ied one, self), X wholly. And, Yesha`yahuw (Isaiah) said, Isaiah 6:1-5 (KJV) 1 In the year that king Uzziah (Hebrew: `Uzziyaahuw) died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims (Hebrew: sraafiym = "burning ones" or "poisonous [serpents]") each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy (Hebrew: Qaadowsh, qaadowsh, qaadowsh) is the LORD of hosts (YHWH ts'va'owt😞 the whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. And, just for confirmation, here's the Hebrew (transliterated): Yeesha`yahuw 6:1-5 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH) 1 Bishnat-mowt hamelekh Uzziyaahuw, vaa'er'eh et-Adonaay yosheeV `al-kicee', raam v-nissaa'; v-shuwlaayow m-lee'iym et-haheekhaal: 2 Sraafiym -- `omdiym | mimma`al low sheesh knaafayim sheesh knaafayim l'echaad; bishtayim ykhacceh paanaayow, uwbishtayim ykhacceh raglaayow, uwbishtayim y`owfeef: 3 Vqaaraa' zeh 'el zeh v'aamar qaadowsh | qaadowsh qaadowsh YHWH tsVaa'owt mlo' khaal haa'aarets kVowdow: 4 Vayaanu`uw ammowt haccipiym miqqowl haqqowree' vhabayit yimmaalee' aasaan: 5 Vaa'omar owy-liy khiy nidmeeytiy -- kiy iysh Tmee'-shfaatayim aanokiy uwVtowkh `am Tmee' shfaatayim -- aanowkhiy yowseeV kiy et hamelekh YHWH tsVaa'owt raa'uw `eeynaay: Now, some say that "holy" means "set apart"; others say that "holy" means "righteous"; still others say that "holy" means "ceremoniously sacred," but the Scriptures tell me that this word means "clean" or "pure" (for that is how the word is used wherever it is found). So, when we read something like... Leviticus 19:1-4 (KJV) 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 "Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. 3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God. 4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God." He is simply saying, "You shall be clean, for I YHWH Eloheinuw am clean!" And, then He proceeds to show them how they can be clean. Thoughts?
  5. Retrobyter

    Holiness is God's Chief Attribute

    I leave you to your thread. Obviously, this is going nowhere.
  6. Retrobyter

    Holiness is God's Chief Attribute

    Shalom, shiloh357. Okay, then, at the risk of pushing you over the edge, show me book, chapter, and verse.
  7. Retrobyter

    Holiness is God's Chief Attribute

    Shalom, shiloh357. No, you just gave a BUNCH of statements that were disassociated and somewhat contradictory, which is why, in my opinion, they were "gibberish," and for me, they WERE "incoherent" as they really didn't answer my question. Shalom, Davida. Tranquility is found in clarity and simplicity. That's why many people experience anything BUT shalom in the "rat race" we run today. Proverbs 10:19 (KJV) 19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise. Or in Charles "Tremendous" Jones' words, "SIBKIS: See It Big, Keep It Simple." That doesn't mean to keep quiet completely; it just means to keep your answer to a few words. (And, I know; I'm one of the biggest offenders!) <REWIND> Okay, perhaps I should have asked a different question: What is the definition of the Hebrew word "kadowsh," which is often translated "holy?" Let's try that instead....
  8. Shalom, Sculelos. Seems like I'm always coming to the party late, but you were right the first time. The "soul" IS the "air-breathing body." I've said it in other threads, but the Hebrew word "nefesh" (pronounced "NEH-fesh") means an "air-breathing creature." The root of this word and the verb form is "naafash" (pronounced "naw-FASH"), which means "to breathe." My Brother and Your Brother Joe has rightly given us a few other passages of Scripture that are applicable: Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 and Ezekiel 37:9. The Hebrew word for "spirit" is "ruwach" and means the "wind," and BY EXTENSION, the "breath" of an individual - the person's "wind," so to speak, especially when one is BLOWING FORCEFULLY. A good example of what God's "Spirit" or "Wind" can do is found in the crossing of the Red Sea! Exodus 14:15-31 (KJV) 15 And the LORD said unto Moses, "Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: 16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. 17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. 18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen." 19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: 20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them (the Egyptians), but it gave light by night to these (the children of Israel): so that the one came not near the other all the night. 21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind (Hebrew: b-ruwach qaadiym `azzaah = "in-a-wind of-east strong") all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. 24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled (instilled TERROR in) the host of the Egyptians, 25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, "Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians!" 26 And the LORD said unto Moses, "Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen." 27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. 29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 30Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. 31And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses. If that's not a powerful wind, I don't know what would be! Just as a side note, I find it hilarious that YHWH LOOKED out of the cloud of darkness at the Egyptians and put them in a PANIC! Maybe they only saw glowing eyes looking out of the darkness at them! Then, He POPPED OFF their chariot wheels! The horses had to DRAG these heavy chariots over that dry sea bed! Seconds later, the water came CRASHING down upon them and suddenly they were buried under water hundreds of feet deep! NONE of them escaped! It makes you wonder what were they thinking? Why would they be so reckless as to chase their prey into the middle of where a sea had been the day before?! Was it blind rage? Were they so filled with hate? Or, were they just obediently following their Pharaoh, wondering all the while whether he was doing a wise thing? Reminds me of the old song, "Please, Mr. Custer (I Don't Wanna Go!)" (See Please, Mr Custer.) Anyway, it seems to me that 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 is based upon 1 Corinthians 12:12-27: 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 (KJV) 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we bebond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that partwhich lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. If one will look carefully at the following verses, 2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (KJV) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from THE body (Greek: ekdeemeesai ek tou soomatos = "to-go-abroad out-of the body"), and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in HIS body (Greek: dia tou soomatos = "through the body"), according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. We continue to labour (to work) WHETHER PRESENT OR ABSENT (GOING ABROAD), that we may be accepted of Him! Is that speaking of death (absent from the body)? OR, could it be speaking of being away from the church to which we belong (absent from THE Body, HIS Body)? Just some thoughts but this is consistent with what we read in other passages, too, like Ephesians 4:16.
  9. Retrobyter

    Holiness is God's Chief Attribute

    Shabbat shalom, shiloh357. Can we back up for a moment and define some terminology? We're using terms that, frankly, I perceive that not everyone is on the same page! What does it mean to be "holy?" What is "holiness?" Let's get that nailed down, first, and perhaps the other things will fall in line.
  10. Shabbat shalom, George! I always thought after the half an hour was up, you'd hear... "TIME'S UP! PENCILS DOWN!" with about a trillion groans following!
  11. Retrobyter

    Matt 24:20 Winter or a Storm

    Shalom, n2thelight. Sorry, didn't see this post for working on my last one. Yes, I believe that there was just one land mass in general. I believe this happened shortly after the Flood: Genesis 10:21-32 emphasizing 25 (KJV) 21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber (from which we get the word "Hebrew"), the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born. 22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram. 23 And the children of Aram; Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash. 24 And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber. 25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg (Hebrew for "earthquake"); for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. 26 And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah, 27 And Hadoram, and Uzal, and Diklah, 28 And Obal, and Abimael, and Sheba, 29 And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab: all these were the sons of Joktan. 30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east. 31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations. 32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood. I believe this is a good explanation for "continental drift." This didn't happen slowly and gain momentum over millions of years! Instead, as with any vibration, it started out with a high amplitude and then attenuated over time. I believe that the age of the earth is under 10,000 years old. There are literally HUNDREDS of dating methods, and I feel it is disingenuous for evolutionists to accept a handful and ignore the rest simply because the few support their world view, ESPECIALLY when the many show a YOUNG EARTH!
  12. Retrobyter

    Matt 24:20 Winter or a Storm

    Shalom, n2thelight. Okay, let's get Isaiah 45:18 out of the way first. You're not reading it correctly. You do have the KJV accurately, but things have changed in our grammar over the past 400 years. A more accurate way to look at the verse as we now use grammar is this: Isaiah 45:18 (New International Version) 18 For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other." or Isaiah 45:18 (Berean Study Bible) 18 For thus says the LORD—He who created the heavens; He is God; He formed the earth and fashioned it; He established it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—“I am the LORD, and there is no other." or Isaiah 45:18 (Holman Christian Standard Bible) 18 For this is what the LORD says-- God is the Creator of the heavens. He formed the earth and made it. He established it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited--"I am Yahweh, and there is no other." or Isaiah 45:18 (Complete Jewish Bible) 18 For thus says ADONAI, who created the heavens, God, who shaped and made the earth, who established and created it not to be chaos, but formed it to be lived in: "I am ADONAI, there is no other." The verse is NOT saying that God didn't create it empty, contradicting Genesis 1:2, but that He didn't create it TO BE empty! He didn't create it TO REMAIN empty! That's what the KJV says, too, but it's harder for modern people to understand that the way the KJV words it. (It was hard for the translators of other versions who fell into the same trap!) --- Now, for the rest of your post and at the risk of stating the obvious, you need to understand that Hebrew is a LANGUAGE with nouns and verbs, adjectives and adverbs, conjunctions and prepositions! Nouns are declined! They have a declension! Nouns in Hebrew are always masculine or feminine gender. (There's no neuter gender in Hebrew.) Nouns are singular, dual, or plural in number. Nouns also have person - 1st person (I, we), 2nd person (thou, ye), and 3rd person (he, she, they (m), they (f)). Verbs are conjugated! Verbs have voice and tense. Verbs in Hebrew also have masculine or feminine gender, and verbs in Hebrew also have number, and these - gender and number - must match those of the subject! Verbs will also have person that must match the person of the subject. With all that in mind, it's not enough to have a general word, like an infinitive or first-person form of a verb or a subjective form of a noun, and think that's all you need to make a connection! "Hayah" is a verb, and it has a conjugation (and a subject declension) that does not appear in Strong's Concordance. If you're going to use the Hebrew, be sure to have an understanding of the Hebrew language. One might be able to get by with a program that shows the Hebrew with translation, such as BibleHub.com or BibleSoft's PC Study Bible, but one needs to have AT LEAST one of this kind of program! The verb "hayah" is not a simple "to be" as we have in English. It's more of a "to exist" meaning. In Genesis 1:2, the verb is "haaytaah" which means "she was," referring to the feminine word "haa'aarets." This is in the Pa`al/Qatal binyan (structure) which is the simple aspect of the verb "WAS." For it to mean "became" it would have to be in the Niph`al/Qittel binyan, the PASSIVE simple aspect of the verb! In Genesis 2:7, the verb is "vayhiy" which means "and he became" and is often translated gender-neutrally as "and there was." You can check these out for yourself at www.pealim.com on "was" and www.pealim.com on "became". (Remember: When adding the vav connective prefix ["v-"], the vowels may change with the addition.) I really hope this helps you, my brother.
  13. Retrobyter

    Matt 24:20 Winter or a Storm

    Genesis 1:2 says that He did. He created it perfect; that is, it was perfect matter, but as yet it didn't have the final, finishing touches put upon it by a loving, THOUGHTFUL God! It was "formless"; that is, it was without land or the conditions suitable for animals or inhabitants. It was "empty"; that is, as yet, it had no lifeforms! He took SIX DAYS to create this earth the way that He wanted it! That's a LONG TIME for a God who could simply SPEAK things into existence! Even the "Day of Rest," Shabbat, was well thought out, although He didn't NEED to rest! He RESTED for humanity's sake! He set the example for them to follow! Don't believe the lie of a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 that haSatan has put in your way as a stumbling block to trip you up and distract you! Instead, learn how Mosheh (Moses) wrote and know that summaries of what is to follow coming first in the text is NORMAL for Hebraic writing! The very idea that there was a previous earth that haSatan was key in its destruction so that God had to start over gives haSatan FAR TOO MUCH CREDIT he doesn't deserve! It was a way for him to make himself LOOK like he was on an even-keel with God Almighty! (He's not, y'know.)
  14. Retrobyter

    Matt 24:20 Winter or a Storm

    Shalom, n2thelight. People read these posts without posting themselves. While that's fine in itself, I almost forgot to answer this post (that I've answered elsewhere before) for THEIR benefit. You KNOW that I couldn't let this go! Jeremiah 4 is NOT about the Creation of this earth and sky (or "Heaven," in some people's minds), nor does it describe a world that existed prior to Genesis 1:2! PLEASE remember to include a passage within its CONTEXT! Jeremiah 4:1-31 (KJV) 1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. 2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. 3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. 4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. 5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities. 6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. 7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant. 8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us. 9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder. 10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. 11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, 12 Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them. 13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. 14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? 15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim. 16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers [witnesses] come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. 17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD. 18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart. 19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. 20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-Land") is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. 21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? 22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. [This describes ISRAEL!] 23 I beheld the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-Land"), and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land (Hebrew: kaal haa'aarets = "all the-Land") shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the-Land") mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. 29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. 30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. 31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers. By looking at the WHOLE context (the REST of Jeremiah [or Yirmeyahu's prophecy]), one sees that this is about the CAPTIVITY OF Y'HUDAH! The phrase "tohu v-bohu" is NOT a "link" to Genesis 1:2! To the contrary, it is a simple phrase that means something simple: "formless and empty." Now, if the context is about all the physical things we can see at the time of Creation, then the phrase can be applied to the whole planet. BUT, when the context is about the Land of Israel at the time of the Captivity into Babylon, then the phrase is about the Land of Israel! It's like the English phrase, "small and beautiful." When we're talking about a diamond, "small and beautiful" applies to the diamond. When we're talking about a baby, then "small and beautiful" refers to the baby! "Beautiful" is a matter of judgment and the value that one places upon a thing or person. When the Hebrew phrase "tohu v-bohu" is applied to the devastation associated with the Captivity of Y'hudah to Babylon, it's talking about the land being DESTROYED - all the cities of Y'hudah were DESTROYED; it's talking about the land being EMPTY - all of its citizens and livestock have been taken captive ... or killed! The rest of the animals and birds have run away or flown away from the fires and smoke that were inflicted upon the whole Land! The same is true for Isaiah 34:11. Look at its context! Isaiah 34:1-17 (KJV) 1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven [birds, primarily] shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah [Botsrah], and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea [Edom]. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences (payback) for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch (tar), and the dust thereof into brimstone (sulfur), and the land thereof shall become burning pitch (burning tar). 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. 11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness (Hebrew: qav tohuw v'aVneey bohuw = "a-connection of-destruction and-stones of-emptiness"). 12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. [The nobles and the princes shall be no more.] 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons (lizards), and a court[yard] for owls. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr (wild goat) shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. 15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures (buzzards) also be gathered, every one with her mate. 16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. 17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein. [Their land will be given to the wildlife and no one will live there forever.] This is about the Land of Edom which used to be south of Israel. This particular destruction hasn't happened, yet. So, this is talking about a future devastation of their land. It talks about a destruction in which "all the host of heaven [birds, primarily] shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down." This might be a nuclear devastation that triggers a seismic event. In any case, that land shall be uninhabitable for humans, basically forever (or at least until the next Age).
  15. Retrobyter

    Kingdom of God.

    Shalom, Willa. Yes, I've read every single one of them. I'd like to explain the simple reasons for the verses you've quoted, if you don't mind. See, first of all, the Greek word ouranos simply means the "sky." Strong's lists the word thus: 3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky. Note that the words after the dash (--) are English words into which this Greek word was translated in the New Testament of the KJV. This is important to keep in mind as one reads these verses. Remember how Yeshua` used the word in Matthew 16:1-4 as opposed to how the Pharisees and Sadducees used the SAME WORD. Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV) 1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, "When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas." And he left them, and departed. First, I'm in agreement with you about the first verses you noted, namely Matthew 6:26, Matthew 8:20, Matthew 13:32, Matthew 24:30, Matthew 26:64, Luke 12:56, and James 5:18. You've correctly used the word in your understanding of these verses. Second, one would find it beneficial to actually provide the substitutions in the next set of verses. Mark 13:25, which is from the Olivet Discourse, is still talking about the sky. Mark 13:24-27 (KJV) 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. See, first of all, the "stars" are METEORITES! These "falling stars" or "shooting stars" DO go through the atmosphere to smack into the earth! Secondly, the "powers that are in heaven" are the weather phenomena that exist in the atmosphere. They, too, shall be disrupted at the Second Coming. Finally, the "uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" is a VERTICAL measurement from the bottom of the earth in which a person may be found to the top of the atmosphere in which a person may fly in any machine that we have today, whether plane, jet, helicopter, or rocket. This atmosphere can extend to 250 miles when one realizes that the air thins as the molecules separate and become more scarce the higher one goes. As long as a single molecule may still be found at a particular altitude, that molecule is still a part of the atmosphere at that height. One has not completely entered what we call "outer space" which is a vacuum with no trace of the molecules of our atmosphere. So, this verse is still talking about the earth's atmosphere. In Hebrews 11:12, the author of the book (possibly Paul) is quoting from Genesis 15:1-7. Hebrews 11:8-12 (KJV) 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. Genesis 15:1-7 (KJV) 1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. 2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look [gaze] now toward heaven (Hebrew: hashaamayimaah = "skyward"), and tell [count] the stars (Hebrew: kowkhaaViym = round-objects like seeds), if thou be able to number [count] them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. This is not about the stars in space; this is about what Abram saw THROUGH the atmosphere as he gazed skyward! The reason why this word "hashaamayimaah" is in the dual with the feminine singular ending (constituting an abstract concept) is because there is a daytime sky and there is a nighttime sky. Abram was looking at the nighttime sky. This carries into the Greek of Hebrews 11:12. In Genesis 1:, God didn't create the sun and the moon in the sky; He created a GREATER LIGHT and a LESSER LIGHT in the sky! In Psalm 8:3, we are DEFINITELY looking at the Hebrew word, "shaameykhaa." This is the word "shaameey" with the second-person, singular ending attached interpreted as "thy." This word refers to the expanse ABOVE the expanse called "heaven" or ABOVE "the sky," where indeed the sun, moon, and stars exist. I used to believe in the sky-space-God's abode theory, but when I investigated the Greek, I discovered that the words used for "heaven" didn't match that theory. The Greek words used for "heaven," "heavens," and "heavenly" and even "heavenlies" are "3772 ouranos," "3770 ouranios," "3771 ouranothen," "3321 mesouraneema," and "2032 epouranios," as listed in Strong's Concordance. All of them are based on the root "ouran-." "Ouranos" means the "sky." Adding the "-ios" ending to get "ouranios" gives you the adjective form meaning "belonging to or coming from the sky." Adding the "-othen" ending to get "ouranothen" gives you the adverbial form meaning "from the sky." Adding the "meso-" prefix meaning "middle" and the "-eema" ending, you get "mesouraneema," a neuter noun meaning "mid-sky." Adding "epi" meaning "above" or "upon" with the "-ios" adjective ending gives you the adjective form "epouranios" meaning "belonging to or coming from ABOVE the sky." NONE of these give a meaning of "God's abode!" The closest thing to it is the word "epouranios," but Paul used it for the sun, moon and stars in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 (KJV) 40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania), and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial (Greek: epouranioon) is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. Here, "glory" refers to the brightness and hue of the heavenly body. That doesn't make it wrong, however, because the New Jerusalem is also said to be an "epouranios" city in Hebrews 12:22! Hebrews 12:22 (KJV) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Greek: Ierousaleem epouranioo), and to an innumerable company of angels, Even the word "mesouraneema," which is used in only three places in the New Testament, all of them in the book of Revelation, means "mid-sky" as revealed in the limiting verse Revelation 19:17. Revelation 19:17-18 (KJV) 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven (Greek: en mesouraneemati), Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. An "angel" might be able to fly above the atmosphere, at least according to theory, but not the birds! That's the Greek; the Hebrew involves fewer words: There's only "shaamayim" (or "hashaamaayim" with the definite-article prefix of "ha-") and "shameey hashaamayim" translated as the "heaven of the heavens." The first one is where the birds fly; the second is where the sun, moon, and stars are. Remember, too, that the Hebrew is not dependent upon the vowels as much as the consonants. So, when we talk about the 19th verse of Psalm 103, where we ASSUME "heaven" to be will GREATLY influence our understanding of the verse, and how you define the word "heaven" in light of the Hebrew word "shaamayim" will also influence your understanding of that verse! It may SEEM to support your view of "heaven," but to me, it greatly supports my view of where "heaven" is! Is His throne set in some place other than the atmosphere or space? OR, is His throne set in the sky, particularly the atmosphere? Remember that the word "spirit" (Hebrew "ruwach") primarily means the "WIND!" Psalm 20:6 also uses the words "mishmeey qaadshow" meaning "from-[the]-expanse-(of-the-expanse-called-"the-sky") his-clean," or put in English order, "from his clean expanse (of the expanse called 'the sky')." Switching gears back to Greek, when we read Matthew 5:33-48, focusing on 34, 45, and 48, it only confirms to me Yeshua`s understanding of verses like Psalm 103:19. Matthew 5:33-48 (KJV) 33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Look at how He connected His understanding of the word to the weather of our atmosphere! Without changing the sun or the earth in any way, God "makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good" by giving them a CLEAR SKY AT SUNRISE! And, He "sends rain on the justified and on the unjustified" equally by allowing it to cloud up and rain over an entire area. Regarding Mark 13:27, we've already touched on this passage above, being part of the Olivet Discourse, but if you'll notice, the Messiah has already returned "in the clouds" when He sends out His messengers (Greek: aggeloi, transliterated as "angels") to retrieve His elect. Regarding... John 3:9-31, focusing on 3:13 and 3:31 (KJV) 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things (Greek: ta epourania = "things from-above-the-sky")? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven (Greek: eis ton ouranon = "into the sky"), but he that came down from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out-of the sky"), even the Son of man which is in heaven (Greek: ho oon en too ouranoo = "the-one-who is in the sky"). 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. 24 For John was not yet cast into prison. 25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. 26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above (the Messiah) is above all: he that is of the earth (John) is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven (Greek: ho ek tou ouranou erchomenos = "the-one-who out-of the sky comes") is above all. There are seven verses to go, but I'll save them for a later post. I hope you can see how these verses can be slightly different than what one might have been taught to understand by looking at the Greek and Hebrew.