Retrobyter

Shalom, Marilyn. That's true, but as with all speculation, we must guard ourselves against using conclusions from speculation in our arguments for Scripture. For instance, we don't really KNOW that Christ HAD the ability to "go through dimensions in His new body," which, by the way, is worded wrongly since He IS His body just as we are and are dependent upon our future resurrection. That's what I mean about hanging our conclusions upon a speculation in the construction of other points in our reasoning. IF we go that route, we MUST be sure that we QUALIFY our conclusions within our construction or we've introduced error into our equation. To use a mathematical simile, this is why we use variables in algebra. We COULD use numbers in some instances, for instance, in calculations for gravity and weight. We could ALWAYS use 9.80665 metres per second squared for the g-force acceleration due to gravity in our calculations for earth, but if we want to apply it to a different planet or moon, we must use a different value based on its mass. Therefore, we give this g-force acceleration the variable "g." The same thing must be true in our "calculations" of theological stances.

Shalom, Marilyn. Just so you know, I took your advice and began just such a thread. However, because this is more fundamental than prophecy or eschatology, I started it under Doctrinal Questions, if you care to join.

Shalom (Peace) to all. Marilyn had said (to wingnut-) in "ERRORS of the POST TRIB. view" under Prophecy/Eschatology: Her short outline provides the information that she divides the children of Israel into two groups: Those who receive the promises given to Israel and those who are NOT included in Israel's inheritance. I believe this division to be rather forced and extremely insulting. Here's why: Notice the ones who are NOT included in Israel's inheritance consist of "Rebellious Israeli people who disobey God" and "Israeli people who come into the Body of Christ." This almost makes the two subcategories on a comparative level. Ironically, many JEWS feel they are synonymous, but should WE feel that way, too? I don't think so. Second, since this is an outline of JUST the children of Israel, she is implicitly making a distinction between the children of Israel and those who are NOT children of Israel, frequently referred to as "Gentiles," suggesting that they have different prospects. She continued in a separate post: (bold-facing mine) Taking her advice, I've started this topic. This topic gets into prophecy and eschatology, but it's deeper than that. So, I decided to open this thread in Doctrinal Questions. If the Moderator feels it would be better placed somewhere else, please feel free to move it. I don't disagree with her basic conclusion that the "elect" refers to Israel (as the "chosen seed") especially in Matthew 24, but I must disagree with the highlighted portion. She concludes that Israel will have the rulership on earth over the nations, and that those who are born again shall have the rulership over the universe. ("Over the UNIVERSE?" That's a HUGE dominion and is probably MUCH greater than we, all those born again, could handle! And, we would be spread very thinly over a VERY GREAT area!) While there is a difference between Gentiles and Israel outside of the Messiah Yeshua` (outside of Christ Jesus), there is NO difference between the two groups WITHIN the Messiah. Essentially, that makes THREE groups of people: 1. The Gentiles outside the Messiah, 2. the children of Israel outside the Messiah, and 3. believers (children of Israel and Gentiles) within the Messiah. Paul describes the last group in Ephesians: Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside of the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (outside of God) in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah). 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the Gentile Ephesians), and to them that were nigh (the children of Israel). 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself (Yeshua` the Messiah Himself) being the chief corner stone (capstone); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. KJV The point I'm trying to make is this: When we are made "one new man," we are not putting the Jews (or more generally, the children of Israel) "into the Church," but rather God is accepting the Gentiles into the household of God, Yeshua`s Israel - Yeshua`s Kingdom to come, making them fellowcitizens WITH the saints, the children of Israel, who were consecrated by God for Himself. The "Church," or rather the "churches," are simply groups of people that gather together for the same purpose. The Greek word, ekkleesia, was also used for the town council of Ephesus (interesting coincidence?) in Acts 19, particularly verses 32, 39, and 41. In the KJV, the word chosen to translate this simply called it an "assembly" instead of a "church." However, ekkleesia is also found in Stephen's sermon in Acts 7: Acts 7:2-41 2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia (between rivers), before he dwelt in Charran, 3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. 4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. 5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he (God) promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. 6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. 7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place. 8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs. 9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, 10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. 11 Now there came a dearth (famine) over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance. 12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first. 13 And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh. 14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls. 15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, 16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem. 17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt, 18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph. 19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live. 20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months: 21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son. 22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds. 23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel. 24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian: 25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not. 26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another? 27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us? 28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday? 29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons. 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. 34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt. 35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church (Greek: ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, 40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. KJV Thus, the FIRST "church" was the congregation of the children of Israel that surrounded Mount Sinai when Moses received the "lively oracles" or the "living words" of God to pass on to us. Thus, going back to Ephesians 2 above, the Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive Tree (Romans 11) are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God." Thus, we who are Gentiles are no longer "aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (outside of God) in the world!" There was a song I used to sing as a kid, "Every Promise in the Book is Mine." Its words are... Every promise in the Book is mine, every chapter, every verse, every line, all the blessings of His love divine; every promise in the Book is mine. Later, I used to believe that this was not true, that there were some promises made to Israel that didn't belong to me as a Gentile. Now, I've changed my mind again! As a Gentile who is accepted into the household of God and is now a citizen of Israel, a recipient of the covenants of promise, the promises ARE mine! Through the blood of the Messiah Yeshua`, I am also a member of the tribe of Y'hudah as Yeshua` is! (You are, too.) The bottom line is this: Even believers in the Messiah have a part in the Millennial Kingdom of God here on this earth. We are PART of those who live and reign with Him, and that's not off in "heaven" somewhere; it's right here on this earth before the Millennium ends with the Great White Throne Judgment. When Yeshua` gave His parable (Luke 19:11-28), even we who are the Gentiles who are grafted into His Olive Tree (Romans 11:16-25), are recipients of these evaluations and rewards. Luke 19:11-28 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Yeshua` HIMSELF said this! Does this sound out of character for Him? It's NOT! These are HIS words!) 28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem. KJV So, I find NO difference between the two. To the contrary, I believe that we ALL will participate in the Messiah's Kingdom right here on this earth during the Millennium.

Shalom, n2thelight. No, that's not right. The earth WAS void (empty) and without form (unformed as yet). Absolutely not. God foreknew me, but I was not yet formed in my mother's womb. Only Adam and Chavah (Eve) were created: Genesis 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (a living air-breather). KJV The rest of us are ALL "born of woman!" We are ALL formed in our mothers' womb and pass through the birth canal to live outside their bodies as separate individuals! We ARE our bodies. Without the body, we don't exist. That's why the Resurrection is so important! And, that's why we don't "go to heaven" when we die. We don't exist when we die. To say otherwise is "Christoplatonism," as Randy Alcorn described in his book, Heaven, Chapter 6, location 1134 in the Kindle version: I take it a step farther than does Mr. Alcorn. I believe that there's no such thing as an "eternal soul" when one defines "soul" as the "immaterial part of a person." When one understands that we ARE souls when we are alive as "air-breathers," THEN we can rightly define an "eternal soul" as the resurrected person who is resurrected as immortal and incorruptible (1 Cor. 15:53-54) who will be a body that breathes (and blasts) forever. We will be resurrected and THEN we shall see the Messiah reign in Jerusalem along with His family down through the generations. Even David the King will reign with Yeshua` as one of His "princes" or "heroes" (Ezek. 34:24; 37:25). When we "walk on golden streets," it will be when the New Jerusalem (built with golden streets) will descend to the New Earth AFTER the Millennium, AFTER the Fire, AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment, and AFTER the New Earth and New Skies are re-built. That's the last I will say on this issue. I've said my piece; accept it or reject it. It's up to you what you choose to believe, but this view is consistent with Scripture.

Shalom, Marilyn. I think you need to re-think group #2 in light of Ephesians 2: Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside of the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (outside of God) in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah). 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the Gentile Ephesians), and to them that were nigh (the children of Israel). 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself (Yeshua` the Messiah Himself) being the chief corner stone (capstone); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. KJV The point I'm trying to make is this: When we are made "one new man," we are not putting the Jews (or more generally, the children of Israel) into the "Church," but rather God is accepting the Gentiles into the household of God, Yeshua`s Israel - Yeshua`s Kingdom to come, making them fellowcitizens with the saints, the children of Israel, who were consecrated by God for Himself. The "Church," or rather the "churches," are simply groups of people that gather together for the same purpose. The Greek word, ekkleesia, was also used for the town council of Ephesus (interesting coincidence?) in Acts 19, particularly verses 32, 39, and 41. In the KJV, the word chosen to translate this simply called it "assembly" instead of a "church." However, ekkleesia is also found in Stephen's sermon in Acts 7: Acts 7:2-41 2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia (between rivers), before he dwelt in Charran, 3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. 4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. 5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he (God) promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. 6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. 7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place. 8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs. 9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, 10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. 11 Now there came a dearth (famine) over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance. 12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first. 13 And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh. 14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls. 15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, 16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem. 17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt, 18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph. 19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live. 20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months: 21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son. 22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds. 23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel. 24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian: 25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not. 26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another? 27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us? 28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday? 29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons. 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. 34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt. 35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church (Greek: ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, 40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. KJV Thus, the FIRST "church" was the congregation of the children of Israel that surrounded Mount Sinai when Moses received the "lively oracles" or the "living words" of God to pass on to us. Thus, going back to Ephesians 2 above, the Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive Tree (Romans 11) are "no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones; that is, the ones consecrated for God), and of the household of God." Thus, we who are Gentiles are no longer "aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God (outside of God) in the world!" There was a song I used to sing as a kid, "Every Promise in the Book is Mine." Its words are... Every promise in the Book is mine, every chapter, every verse, every line, all the blessings of His love divine; every promise in the Book is mine. Later, I used to believe that this was not true, that there were some promises made to Israel that didn't belong to me as a Gentile. Now, I've changed my mind again! As a Gentile who is accepted into the household of God and is now a citizen of Israel, a recipient of the covenants of promise, the promises ARE mine! Through the blood of the Messiah Yeshua`, I am also a member of the tribe of Y'hudah as Yeshua` is! (You are, too.) The bottom line is this: We have a part in the Millennial Kingdom of God here on this earth. We are PART of those who live and reign with Him, and that's not off in "heaven" somewhere; it's right here on this earth before the Millennium ends with the Great White Throne Judgment. When Yeshua` gave His parable (Luke 19:11-28), even we who are the Gentiles who are grafted into His Olive Tree (Romans 11:16-25), are recipients of these evaluations and rewards. Luke 19:11-28 11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Yeshua` HIMSELF said this! Does this sound out of character for Him? It's NOT!) 28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem. KJV

Shalom, Marilyn. Sorry for my part in taking the thread off its intended course. Sometimes, conversations ... go awry of their own accord. Getting back on track, however, sometimes requires a re-hashing of the reasons the topic got off course in the first place. As is often the case, if one has a faulty view of Genesis, one will also have a faulty view of Revelation. When one has a proper understanding of what Peter meant in 2 Pet. 3:3-13, it makes a HUGE difference in how one views the end times, since much of what Peter said has not yet been fulfilled. And, the "new heavens and new earth" of 2 Peter is the same as the "new heaven and the new earth" that John saw in Rev. 21:1-2. When one has an improper understanding of 2 Pet 3:5-6, then he or she may have an improper understanding of verses 7-13, as well! In my mind, it's simple: 5-6 is about the earth and its skies before the Flood, including the Flood, 7-12 is about the earth and its skies after the Flood and before the Fire, including the Fire, and 13 is about the new earth and its skies after the Fire. There was no "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and 2 because that's not the way Hebrew works! Genesis 1:1 is simply a synopsis of what is to follow. Leaving that behind, posttribulational rapturism involves the REASON for the rapture in the first place. IF it's to "take us to heaven" to get us out of the way so God can "lower the boom," that's going to affect how we view what takes place next, namely the Millennium. And, this has been a source of contention on another front with Keras. The reason for the rapture is contingent upon the reason for the Millennium. Just some thoughts. Which way do you want this to go?

Shalom, n2thelight. Sorry, but you're not going to "snow" me with this nonsense; I speak Hebrew! I study Hebrew! And, you DON'T know what you're talking about! In the original texts, it does NOT say "the earth became without form!" It says, "V-haa'aarets haaytaah tohuw vaaVohuw v-choshekh `al pneey t-howm v-ruwach Elohiym mrachefet `al pneey hamaayim:" V-haa'aarets = And-the-earth haaytaah = she/it-was tohuw = empty vaaVohuw = and-formless v-choshekh = and-darkness `al = against pneey = [the]-face t-howm = of-[the]-deep v-ruwach = and-[the]-wind Elohiym = of-God mrachefet = gently-moved `al = against pneey = [the]-face hamaayim: = of-the-waters: All verbs in Hebrew have gender, they are either masculine or feminine (there's no neuter as there is in Greek), and they are either singular or plural, and agree with the noun that is the subject for that verb. The ending of the verb gives this information. For more, go to the Pealim.com page. LEARN HEBREW!

Shalom, Keras. Okay, let's start at the end of what you had to say, because it's simply not true, and you've got a LOT to learn about the Second Coming of Yeshua` the Messiah! Part of the "rewards," as you put it, involve rulership over towns! Luke 19:17, 19. How is that possible if we are not "reigning with Him for a thousand years?" Revelation 20:1-6. In fact, the whole character of the Millennium is about putting the enemies of the Messiah in their place as well as blessing the true children of Israel, descendants of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov. Psalm 2:1-12; 1 Corinthians 15:20-28; Ezekiel 36-37; etc. You've REALLY got to start reading the WHOLE prophecy, not just a little portion of it, like a verse here or there! For instance, your references to Zephaniah 1:17-18 is meaningless without its background context! For instance, just look at the first few verses of Zephaniah: Zephaniah 1:1-7 1 The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah. 2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD. 3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. 4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests; 5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham; 6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor inquired for him. 7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. KJV This was a prophecy about the near future to them in Judah during the kingdom of Josiah! It's NOT a prophecy about a time that is still in our future! Ezekiel 21:1-8 is OVER! Again, look at its context! Read it to at least the end of Ezekiel chapter 22! You will discover (if you're honest) that this passage is about the captivity of Y'hudah (Judah) to the Babylonians! He was not sheathing the sword until it had accomplished what God was doing in sending them into captivity and killing the residue in the Land! Ezekiel 21:14-32 14 Thou therefore, son of man, prophesy, and smite thine hands together, and let the sword be doubled the third time, the sword of the slain: it is the sword of the great men that are slain, which entereth into their privy chambers. 15 I have set the point of the sword against all their gates, that their heart may faint, and their ruins be multiplied: ah! it is made bright, it is wrapped up for the slaughter. 16 Go thee one way or other, either on the right hand, or on the left, whithersoever thy face is set. 17 I will also smite mine hands together, and I will cause my fury to rest: I the LORD have said it. 18 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 19 Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose thou a place, choose it at the head of the way to the city. 20 Appoint a way, that the sword may come to Rabbath of the Ammonites, and to Judah in Jerusalem the defenced. 21 For the king of Babylon stood at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination: he made his arrows bright, he consulted with images, he looked in the liver. 22 At his right hand was the divination for Jerusalem, to appoint captains, to open the mouth in the slaughter, to lift up the voice with shouting, to appoint battering rams against the gates, to cast a mount, and to build a fort. 23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken. 24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, I say, that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand. 25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end, 26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. 27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him. 28 And thou, son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, The sword, the sword is drawn: for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering: 29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end. 30 Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity. 31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy. 32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it. KJV Regarding Isaiah 22:14, you didn't read far enough (which is your TYPICAL failure): Isaiah 22:18-25 18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. 19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down. 20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah: 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. 24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons. 25 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the Lord hath spoken it. KJV This is a prophecy about the RETURN of Y'hudah (Judah) after the Babylonian Captivity! Regarding Jeremiah 10:18, again, read on: Jeremiah 10:14-25 14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish. 16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name. 17 Gather up thy wares out of the land, O inhabitant of the fortress. 18 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will sling out the inhabitants of the land at this once, and will distress them, that they may find it so. 19 Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous: but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it. 20 My tabernacle (tent) is spoiled, and all my cords are broken: my children are gone forth of me, and they are not: there is none to stretch forth my tent any more, and to set up my curtains. 21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered. 22 Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country (around the top of the "Fertile Crescent" to Babylon), to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons (lizards). 23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. 24 O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing. 25 Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate. KJV Even in Romans 9:27, you didn't read the context: Romans 9:27-29 27 Esaias (Isaiah) also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. KJV It's not the Gentiles that are the "remnant"; it's the scraps of cloth FROM THE ORIGINAL CLOTHING! The "seed" is obviously the children of those in Israel because he is comparing them to "Sodom and Gomorrha." If you want to see someone who has a theory with no Bible support, look in the mirror!

Shalom, again, Keras. I need to continue. When it comes to Matthew 21:43, one really MUST read the verse IN ITS CONTEXT! Not to do so is being dishonest with the Scriptures. Matthew 21:23-46 23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. 28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. 33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation (Greek: ethnei = "to a people") bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet. KJV First, these chief priests (two, Annas and Caiaphas) and the elders of the people were the ones who came to Yeshua` and INTERRUPTED His teaching to ask the first questions: "By what authority do you do these things? Who gave you this authority?" Yeshua` said, "I'll tell you, if you answer my question first: Did the baptism of John come from God or from men?" They figured out what they suspected would be His next statements if they said, "yes" or "no", and decided they couldn't commit to either: "We can't tell you." So, He answered, "Neither will I tell you, then, by whose authority I do these things." There are three sets of peoples that are contrasted in these parables and in reality: 1. the publicans (corrupt tax collectors for Rome) and harlots (prostitutes) vs. the chief priests and the elders of the people. 2. the husbandmen (vineyard workers) who killed the owner's son vs. other husbandmen (other vineyard workers). 3. the chief priests and Pharisees vs. the multitude of the people. While "ethnos" often means "a Gentile people," it isn't FORCED to mean that, and in this case, it is the contrast to these chief priests and Pharisees that takes precedence. One absolutely MUST listen to what the Scriptures are saying rather than to read one's own words into what is being said. He was telling these religious and civil leaders that THEIR OWN authority was in jeopardy! After all, that's the theme of their questions, right? In the first parable, the "certain man" is the authority. He tells both of his sons to go work in the vineyard. The first said, "No," but went anyway. The second said, "Yes, sir," but did not go. So, Yeshua` simply asked, "Which one did what his father wanted?" The obvious answer is the one who said "No," but did it anyway. The "proof is in the pudding," so to speak. The work was PERFORMED by the first son. The second son DID NOTHING. By Yeshua`s own analogy, he said the brothers represented the group of corrupt tax collectors and the prostitutes and them, the group of chief priests and Pharisees. In the second parable, the "certain householder" was the authority. In the parable, he portrayed the evil husbandmen and then let THEM provide their sentence for their rebellion and mistreatment of the householder's servants and his own son. From His quotation of Psalm 118:22, it is clear that THEY, the chief priests and the Pharisees, were the builders who rejected the stone in the building of the pyramid. However, that stone would come back as the CAPSTONE!

Shalom, Keras. Ummm... They ARE "still God's special people!" And, please cease, in the name of Yeshua` the Messiah of God, thinking that this "Church" entity somehow takes the place of God's special people, the children of Israel! They do not, and they cannot! Romans 11:11-29 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world (God's justification), what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? (RESURRECTION!) 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. (This is what YOU are saying, if you believe in "Replacement Theology.") 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleander tree), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel): 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the FATHERS' (the PATRIARCHS') sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't renege on His gifts and calling! His promises are NOT given away to others!) KJV Romans 3:1-2 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (the words) of God. KJV Have you bothered to read Ephesians 2? Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Ephesians) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision (the children of Israel) in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world (outside of God in the world system): 13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off (the Gentile Ephesians) are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (of the Messiah). 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both (children of Israel and Gentiles) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition (separation) between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (out of two) one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the Gentile Ephesians), and to them that were nigh (close, the children of Israel). 18 For through him we both (children of Israel and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye (Gentile Ephesians) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones, the children of Israel), and of the household (family) of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. KJV Notice: It's not the children of Israel that are farther off; it's the Gentiles who have been made close LIKE the children of Israel! The Gentiles are no longer the strangers and foreigners. The Gentiles are now fellowcitizens WITH the saints (the holy ones). They've been added TO the family of God, the children of Israel! By the way, "holy ones" or "saints" doesn't mean "righteous ones." It means "sanctified ones" or "ones set apart" for God, just as all the furniture in the Temple was "sanctified" or "set apart" for the LORD'S use! In Matthew 3:7-10, Yochanan (John) was talking to the P'rushiym and Ts'duqiym (the Pharisees and Sadduccees), not to "all of Israel."

Shalom, n2thelight. Well, it's interesting that you think that "science and scripture do not contradict," and yet can say "evolution is not true." It's true that true science (observation and experimentation) does not contradict the Scriptures, but you've got to understand that true science today is almost always supplemented with a humanistic, evolutionary interpretation of the results of that science. Furthermore NONE of true science says ANYTHING about origins and would not. Science answers "how," not "why." True science gives nothing definitive regarding the age of the earth, either. It only gives us facts; it's ONE INTERPRETATION of those facts that introduces long periods of time to one's viewpoint. Other, more consistent interpretations of the same facts give much shorter periods of time. Look at the history of the "gap theory." You will find that a gap thought to exist between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 was introduced as a means by which believers in the Bible could accomodate the new-at-the-time Darwinian Theory of Evolution. But, let's move on from that, assuming as you say that you do not accept this theory. Hebrew is technically an Oriental language, not a Western one, as it is a language of the "Middle EAST." It is read from right to left instead of left to right; it started as a pictoral language before there were "letters"; and there are technically no vowels in the alphabet (or as they rightly call the "alef-bet," since Hebrew came BEFORE Greek). When vowels are introduced into their language for pronunciation in another language, such as English, they call this system the "vowel pointing method." When I transliterate the Hebrew into English, I will try to be as consistent with the vowel-pointing to vowel change as when I have a consonant to consonant change. Here are the consonant to consonant changes: alef = ' (ignored at the beginning of words so as not to conflict with single quotes; the sound associated with the explosive "uh" sound at the beginning of words like "apple," "egg," and "umbrella") bet = b gimmel = g (always a hard g as in "girl" never the soft g in "giant") dalet = d hei = h vav = v (or w when connected with a vowel sound) zayin = z cheit = ch teit = T yod = y kaf = k (sounded in the middle of the tongue) lamed = l meim = m nun (pronounced "noon") = n samech = c (pronounced like an s) `ayin = ` (the gutteral sound make in the back of the throat like a swallowing sound; the reason why `aza is spelled "Gaza") pei = p tsadday = ts qof = q (a k sound made at the back of the tongue) reish = r shin (pronounced "sheen") = sh tav = t (Some English versions of the Bible will have these Hebrew letters at the beginning of the 22 sections of Psalm 119.) In addition to these letters, certain letters will carry a different sound if the letter is dotted in the middle of the letter as opposed to when it does not. The Hebrew phrase "beged kefet" is the way one can remember the letters that are affected. bet (dotted) = b vet (undotted) = V gimmel (undotted) = g gimmel (dotted) = gg dalet (undotted) = d dalet (dotted) = dd kaf (dotted) = k khaf (undotted) = kh (the hard German gutteral sound as in "reich") pei (dotted) = p fei (undotted) = f tav (undotted) = t thav (dotted) = th (hard th as in "thin"; never soft th as in "this") I represent the vowel pointing that is added to these consonants like this: qamets = aa (pronounced as "aw" in "saw") patach = a (pronounced as "a" in "father") tsere = ee (pronounced as "ay" in "day") tsere with yod = eey (pronounced as "ay" in "day") segol = e (pronounced as "eh" in "bed") chireq = i (pronounced as "ee" in "bee") chireq with yod = iy (pronounced as "ee" in "bee") cholem = o (pronounced as "o" in "oboe") cholem with vav = ow (pronounced as "ow" in "rainbow") qibbuts = u (pronounced as "oo" in "boo") shureq = uw (pronounced as "oo" in "boo") sheva (from which we get our English sound "schwa") is either not represented (as in a consonant blend) or given a dash ("-") In native Hebrew, the vowel pointing is not needed. Those who speak Hebrew fluently do not need them. Israeli newspapers do not have the vowel pointing in their print. Neither did the Bible in Hebrew. Now, the transliteration that I gave earlier for Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew was: B-ree'shiyt baaraa' Elohiym eet hashaamayim v'eet haa'aarets: That was so that one could know, based on the above schemes, how to pronounce it; however, in Hebrew (transliterated) it would look more like this (with no alefs ignored): br'shyt br' 'lhym 't hshmym v't h'rts: ... without the vowel pointing. One should also be aware of the fact that the "h-" (hei-) prefix is the definite article in Hebrew. Sometimes in pronunciation it has the patach (a) and sometimes it has the qamets (aa) pointing. So, when God called the expanse (firmament) "shmym" (spelled "shin-meim-yod-meim"), one should be able to recognize that it's the same word as that in Gen. 1:1 without the definite article. Likewise, when God called the dry ground "'rts" (spelled "alef-reish-tsadday"), it too is the same word as that in Gen. 1:1 without the definite article. There was no "first time" before Genesis 1:2 because He doesn't NAME the heavens and the earth until Days 2 and 3 of the Creation week!

Shalom, Keras. Wow. That is SO twisted! You can't even accept what the Jews say about their OWN prophetic book of Yirmeyahu, and you call ME a "preterist!" Answer one question: Why do you think Jeremiah (Yirmeyahu) was called "the weeping prophet?"

Shalom, n2thelight. Something you might want to think about: Why did God take six days to create the heavens and the earth? You said, The word "perfect" means "mature." It does not mean anything more than that. Why did He create the first earth perfectly and instantaneously in verse 1 and take six days to create it the second time? The correct answer is, He didn't. He created earth and the skies ONCE. As I've said before, Jewish literature typically begins with a summary of what is to follow. Think of this summary as a main point in an outline. Then, the subpoints are expanded in the lines to follow. As proof of this being the case in Genesis 1, simply look at the words for "heavens" (or "heaven" in some versions) and "earth": In Genesis 1:1, we read, B-ree'shiyt baaraa' Elohiym eet hashaamayim v'eet haa'aarets: B-ree'shiyt = In-the-beginning baaraa' = created Elohiym = God eet = (the next word is the direct object) hashaamayim = the-skies (dual) v'eet = and-(the next word is the direct object) haa'aarets: = the-earth: But, then we read in Genesis 1:8, Vayiqraa' Elohiym laaraaqiyaa` shaamaayim: Vayiqraa' = And-gave-name Elohiym = God laaraaqiyaa` = to-the-expanse shaamaayim: = skies (dual): And, later we read in Genesis 1:10, Vayiqraa' Elohiym layabaashaah erets: Vayiqraa' = And-gave-name Elohiym = God layabaashaah = to-the-dry-ground erets: = earth: Therefore, the first verse is the summary because God named the expanse between waters "shaamaayim" and named the dry-ground "erets," the same words used in verse 1! Since God made these things on days 2 and 3, respectively, He did NOT create them BEFORE the six days of Creation. In each of the six days, God creates something and creates each of those things "perfect," "mature." But, they could only go so far in the matrix in which they were created. Each was perfect and mature, but they could only be as perfect and mature as far they could go. They could not go any further. For instance, sea creatures could not be created until there were seas. Land animals could not be created until there was first land! And, the whole earth had to be designed before mankind could be created.

Shalom, n2thelight. Sorry, but that's bibliolatry, the WORSHIP of a version of the Bible. There's nothing special in any one English translation of the Bible. I had to learn this as well in my lifetime. There were "KJV only" people when I was growing up, too. It's a common flaw in many denominations because I, for instance, was "saved" by a person (my father) using the KJV to show me the "Roman's Road to Salvation." In fact, the joke was, "Well if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul, it's good enough for me!" I am still learning, however, that God's Word is NOT just found in one language or in one version within that language. Instead, it is GOD who has the power to show Himself from ANY version, whether it be the Catholic Douay Bible or even the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation. He can make Himself known and one can find God's Justification through ANY version of the Bible when the Holy Spirit draws him or her. It's not that the KJV or any version is "most accurate"; it's which version is most true to the original languages. And, you're right that the KJV is one of the versions most true to the original Greek and Hebrew because the original members of the Translators thought it best to translate the Scriptures as much as possible, word for word from the original languages. There are two general philosophies translators use when they do their work: formal or complete equivalence and dynamic equivalence, and the KJV uses the formal equivalence while the NIV uses the dynamic equivalence. There were MANY copies of the Scriptures, both in the Hebrew of the TANAKH (which is a Hebrew acrostic "T-N-K" for "Torah-Navi'iym-K'tuviym," the "Torah" or the Pentateuch, the Prophets, and the Writings) and in the Greek of the B'rit Chadashah, the New Covenant or Testament. Some of these copies were more true to their source than others. Some copyists added words to "explain" what was meant in the Greek text but these "good intentions" corrupted the text! Still, God gave us enough evidence regarding the Greek texts that allows us to use textual criticism to discover which versions of the Greek text were more probably closer to the original manuscripts than others. The Hebrew, too, was faithfully copied down through the millennia. So well were they copied, in fact, that copies of Isaiah found in Kumran's Dead Sea Scrolls have very few changes to modern copies of the TANAKH'S book of Isaiah. Thus, we can rely upon the Masoretic text of the TANAKH. But, when you so adhere to this King James Authorized Version of the Bible (the ONLY version that King James would allow in England's pulpits, btw), so much that it affects the way you interpret Scripture where you've CHANGED the meaning of the text, as you've done here in Jeremiah 4, then it's time to go to a different version. If it helps, you might try the New American Standard Bible or Version (NASB or NASV) which also used the more formal equivalence approach to translation. But, the KJV is not serving you well when you come up with this nonsense. If you're taking someone else's teaching for your own, discard it; it doesn't work. Oh, and to answer your question, it happened from the thirteenth year of Josiah, king of Judah (3298 AM, or 626 BC), until after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of Solomon's Temple in 3358 AM or 587 BC.

Shalom, n2thelight. I'm going to address this post first as it is the easier of the two. It would be wise for you to read the prophecy of Yirmeyahu ("Jeremiah") again in its entirety. I would suggest for this exercise that you pick an English version that's easy to read, such as the NIV, and read it in a single sitting. You'll have to plan for the time, and it will probably take you close to 2 hours to read it, but it will be a valuable exercise. If possible, I would suggest reading it aloud to yourself, if you have the privacy. Should you want to include others, you can let them read part of it while you read the rest, taking turns. I suggest this exercise because you've got the wrong idea of what Yirmeyahu was saying. For instance, here's the NIV on chapter 4: Jeremiah 4:1-31 1 "If you will return, O Israel, return to me," declares the LORD. "If you put your detestable idols out of my sight and no longer go astray, 2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way you swear, 'As surely as the LORD lives,' then the nations will be blessed by him and in him they will glory." 3 This is what the LORD says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem: "Break up your unplowed ground and do not sow among thorns. 4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done — burn with no one to quench it. 5 "Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say: 'Sound the trumpet throughout the land!' Cry aloud and say: 'Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities!' 6 Raise the signal to go to Zion! Flee for safety without delay! For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction." 7 A lion has come out of his lair; a destroyer of nations has set out. He has left his place to lay waste your land. Your towns will lie in ruins without inhabitant. 8 So put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the LORD has not turned away from us. 9 "In that day," declares the LORD, "the king and the officials will lose heart, the priests will be horrified, and the prophets will be appalled." 10 Then I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, how completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, 'You will have peace,' when the sword is at our throats." 11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, "A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them." 13 Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined! 14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved. How long will you harbor wicked thoughts? 15 A voice is announcing from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim. 16 "Tell this to the nations, proclaim it to Jerusalem: 'A besieging army is coming from a distant land, raising a war cry against the cities of Judah. 17 They surround her like men guarding a field, because she has rebelled against me,'" declares the LORD. 18 "Your own conduct and actions have brought this upon you. This is your punishment. How bitter it is! How it pierces to the heart!" 19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain. Oh, the agony of my heart! My heart pounds within me, I cannot keep silent. For I have heard the sound of the trumpet; I have heard the battle cry. 20 Disaster follows disaster; the whole land lies in ruins. In an instant my tents are destroyed, my shelter in a moment. 21 How long must I see the battle standard and hear the sound of the trumpet? 22 "My people are fools; they do not know me. They are senseless children; they have no understanding. They are skilled in doing evil; they know not how to do good." 23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone. 24 I looked at the mountains, and they were quaking; all the hills were swaying (shimmering in the heat). 25 I looked, and there were no people; every bird in the sky had flown away. 26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert; all its towns lay in ruins before the LORD, before his fierce anger. 27 This is what the LORD says: "The whole land will be ruined, though I will not destroy it completely. 28 Therefore the earth will mourn and the heavens above grow dark, because I have spoken and will not relent, I have decided and will not turn back." 29 At the sound of horsemen and archers every town takes to flight. Some go into the thickets; some climb up among the rocks. All the towns are deserted; no one lives in them. 30 What are you doing, O devastated one? Why dress yourself in scarlet and put on jewels of gold? Why shade your eyes with paint? You adorn yourself in vain. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life. 31 I hear a cry as of a woman in labor, a groan as of one bearing her first child — the cry of the Daughter of Zion gasping for breath, stretching out her hands and saying, "Alas! I am fainting; my life is given over to murderers." NIV THIS is what this passage is about! It's a report and grief over the Babylonian invasion that led to the captivity! Yirmeyahu has some prophecy, too, but much of it is recorded history of the captivity itself.