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Retrobyter

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Retrobyter last won the day on December 14 2013

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About Retrobyter

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  1. Shalom, Uriah. The "abomination" is ANYTHING that disgusts God or men. That CAN be an idol or an image, but it can also be direct rebellion against Himself and/or the hatred and rejection against His own beloved Son whom HE selected as His Messiah to be their King! The Hebrew word for "abominations" is "shiqquwtsiym," the plural of "shiqquwts": 8251 shiqquwts (shik-koots'). Or shiqquts {shik-koots'}; from shaaqats; disgusting, i.e. Filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol -- abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing). 8262 shaaqats (shaw-kats'). A primitive root; to be filthy, i.e. (intensively) to loathe, pollute -- abhor, make abominable, have in abomination, detest, X utterly. And, the reason for the word "abominationS" is that Daniel 9:27 uses the phrase "v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym," using the plural and meaning "and-against an-extended-wing of-abominations." The rest of the clause adds "mshomeem," meaning "he shall make desolate." Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV) 15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... ." In Matthew 24, Yeshua` said (translated into Greek), 15 "Hotan oun ideete to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos to rheethen dia Danieel tou profeetou hestos en topoo hagioo, ta anaginooskoon noeitoo, 16 tote hoi en tee Ioudaia feugetoosan eis ta oree, ... ." which is translated into English word-for-word as... 15 "When therefore ye-shall-see the abomination of-the desolation the-one spoken-about through Daniel the prophet stand in a-place holy, the-one reading let-him-understand, 16 then those in the Judaea let-them-flee into the mountains, ... ." Thus, the resultant is the "abomination" in this case, not the cause! The cause is the "desolation." As in many times of testing, people are given 40 years to repent, and this time was no different. However, the Jews did NOT repent or change their minds about accepting the Messiah, and so, the abomination - the disgusting thing to the Jews - was the Roman banner and eagle standing in their beloved Temple. When they saw this occur, the wise and instructed by the Messiah were to leave immediately and head for the mountains! This has already occurred in 66 A.D. prior to the Temple's destruction in 70 A.D. Seeing that the Jews took up arms and would put up a fight and rebel against Roman occupation of the Temple, the Romans put up a siege against Jerusalem, and the city was closed off until the Romans won the day in 70 A.D. The armies of Rome burnt down the Temple and melted its gold into all the cracks and crevices between the stones of the buildings. To get to the gold, they dismantled all the buildings of the Temple, leaving "no stone upon another," as Yeshua` predicted. Only the ones who got out before the Jews and the Romans locked up Jerusalem were guaranteed escape. Many Jews died or were taken captive by the Romans when the Romans conquered the city. Rome was known for its heavy war machines and armament, restricting their movement along low places and well-maintained roads. Therefore, the mountains were the best places to escape. Yeshua` pronounced them "desolate" in 30 A.D., but "the hammer didn't fall" until 70 A.D. The "List" were the abominations that caused the desolation to occur; the desolation caused the abomination of the Temple's desecration. Thus, the tribulation began in the First Century with the destruction of the Temple and later the destruction of Jerusalem and the killing or deportation of the Jews to all the nations of the Roman Empire - the Disaspora. Yeshua` also told His disciples (and us) that the tribulation would continue until the End, just before the signs of His Second Coming: Matthew 24:9 (KJV) 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (later,) Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV) 29 Immediately after the tribulation (Greek: Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin = "But immediately after the tribulation") of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Thus, the tribulation (Greek: thlipsis) has lasted through all the Roman persecutions, the Inquisitions, the Purges, the Pogroms, the Holocaust, and even now in the constant Terrorism from the "Palestinians" (displaced Jordanians) who occupy the Gaza Strip (the land that once belonged to the Philistines, which the Romans called "Palestine") and the West Bank (the mountains of Israel), as well as from the surrounding Muslim countries. The "tribulation" has lasted from 70 A.D. to 2019 A.D. (so far), and will continue to be poured upon the desolate (the Jews) until they learn to accept Yeshua` as the Messiah of God He was and is! When they can learn to welcome Him as God's Representative with God's authority, then the tribulation will end, and the last half of the 70th Seven will start.
  2. Shalom again, Uriah. Now, remember the purposes of the 70 Sevens ("Weeks"): Daniel 9:24 (KJV) 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, (1) to finish the transgression, and (2) to make an end of sins, and (3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and (4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and (5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and (6) to anoint the most Holy. SOME of these things were accomplished or started to be accomplished through the Messiah's FIRST Advent - His FIRST Coming - in the First Century A.D; HOWEVER, not everything was so accomplished for Daniel's PEOPLE and his HOLY CITY! However, as has been previously discussed, the Messiah Himself has to do most of this, especially for His OWN PEOPLE! Therefore, the rest of the prophecy must be fulfilled when the Messiah returns! Since their household has been made desolate - put on hold, tabled - THAT desolation put this prophecy on hold until He returns! THAT'S why there's a "GAP." However, that gap wasn't started until the Messiah made His people desolate in Matthew 23:38, three and a half years after He began offering the Kingdom to Israel, namely, His own tribe, Yhudah - the Jews.
  3. Shalom, Uriah. Sure. Here's the quote: Look again at what Gavriel said: Daniel 9:27 (KJV) 27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (one Seven = seven years): and in the midst of the week (1/2 Seven = 3.5 years = the fourth Passover after the Messiah first offered the Kingdom) he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (at the Crucifixion), and for the overspreading of abominations (enumerated by the Messiah in Matthew 23:1-37) he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (the End when the Messiah returns), and that determined (the tribulation) shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews). Here's the record of how it happened: Matthew 23:1-37 (KJV) 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 8 But be not ye called 'Rabbi': for one is your Master, even Christ (the Messiah); and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ (the Messiah). 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which iswithin the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, 'If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" THIS is the list of abominations that were spreading out among the people like the spread-out wing of a bird! Gavriel anticipated this in the words "for the overspreading of abominations...," and THIS is the error that the Jews made! They REJECTED God's Messiah whom God would have made their King! Then, Yeshua` said those dreadful words: Matthew 23:38 (KJV) 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. This was anticipated in Gavriel's prophecy in the words "He shall make it desolate..." Then, the Messiah Yeshua` said, Matthew 23:39 (KJV) 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. This was anticipated in Gavriel's prophecy in the words "even until the consummation...." The Hebrew word translated as "consummation" is "kaalaah": 3617 kaalaah (kaw-law'). (As a feminine noun.) From kalah; a completion; adverb, completely; also destruction -- altogether, (be, utterly) consume(-d), consummation(-ption), was determined, (full, utter) end, riddance. 3615 kaalaah (kaw-law'). (As a verb.) A primitive root; to end, whether intransitive (to cease, be finished, perish) or transitive (to complete, prepare, consume) -- accomplish, cease, consume (away), determine, destroy (utterly), be (when... Were) done, (be an) end (of), expire, (cause to) fail, faint, finish, fulfil, X fully, X have, leave (off), long, bring to pass, wholly reap, make clean riddance, spend, quite take away, waste. This is talking about the ending of that which "shall be poured," the tribulation. This was fulfilled in the words of the Messiah, "till ye shall say...." Another key is WHAT they shall say: "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord," which is a quotation from Psalm 118:26: Psalm 118:21-26 (KJV) 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. This sentence in Hebrew is "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." As I've said over and over again, the words "Baruwkh haba'" mean, "Welcome, comer!" It's said in the plural at every airport and seaport in Israel: "Baruwkhiym haba'iym." "Welcome, comers!" Here's an example at the airport in Tel Aviv. The rest is "in the name (authority) of YHWH (God's Name)." There's a bit more, but I've got to stop tonight....
  4. Shalom again, Uriah. I should also mention that the "tribulation" is not a mere 3.5 years long anymore than it is 7 years long. It "falls in the crack" between week 69.5 weeks and the last half week, so to speak. Again, if you ask anyone who believes that the 7 years should be separated from the others, they cannot give you a good reason for doing so. HOWEVER, Yeshua` leaving them desolate until they can welcome Him back as YHWH'S Messiah IS a good reason for the pause between the first and the second half of the 70th week. THAT error on the Jews' part put the "crack" - the "gap" - in Gavriel's prophecy, and yet, it was anticipated in the prophecy! Daniel 9:27 (KJV) 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (the End when He returns), and that determined (the tribulation) shall be poured upon the desolate (the Jews).
  5. Shalom, Uriah. Don't be too hasty in your conclusion, though. Being part of "Daniel's 70th week" does NOT negate being a part of "Revelation's 42 months!" The problem is that many tie the 70th week with the "tribulation" or they will tie the 42 months to the "tribulation," instead of leaving the "tribulation" out of it! The tribulation, as described by our Lord in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and even Luke 21, ENDS with the sign of the Lord's Coming, and this can be seen in Revelation 6:12-7:17, particularly verses 6:12-14 and 7:14. Almost immediately, Israel shall accept Him as YHWH'S Messiah as He comes with rescue in His wake, and the anointing of Him as their King will follow soon after the Messiah has rescued His mishpochah - His family. It's AFTER the Lord returns that the second half of the seventieth "week" will be fulfilled. This is seen in Revelation 11:1-19. (By the way, the 42 months is 1,239 days long, and the 1,260 days is three weeks longer, and by Jewish calculations, it's the 42 months that are 3.5 years at 354 days per 12 months with 12 months per year without a leap month. The average month, being a true "moonth," is 29.5 days long. If a leap month is included in that 3.5 years, then the length of time would be 1,268.5 days, 8.5 days longer than the 1,260 days.) This is the time that the Messiah shall be the King of the Jews before He becomes the King of all Israel, like His ancestor, David, did.
  6. Shalom, Uriah. Sorry I've been gone so long from the discussion; I was debating with HAZARD in "Our Body is our Soul and our Soul is our Body." This isn't right, either, though. It's not about a 3.5-year tribulation anymore than it's about a 7-year tribulation period. The "tribulation" doesn't have to do with the 70 weeks of years in Daniel 9 at all! The "tribulation" or "pressure" started in the First Century A.D. with the children of Israel, and in particular, the children of Yhudah, the Jews, REJECTING the LORD'S Anointed! Because they rejected Him, He left them "desolate" until He returns, and He said He wouldn't return until they could welcome Him back as the LORD'S Anointed. It grew to large proportions under the invasions by Rome some 40 years later as the Romans invaded and destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D., tearing it apart for the gold that melted in the fire and flowed between the stones of the building. This "tribulation" shall continue until the Lord Yeshua` returns and offers His Kingdom to Israel once again. The "tribulation" shall be about TWO THOUSAND YEARS LONG! While it is true that Yeshua` promised (in His prophecy of Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21) that those "days would be shortened," there's another way those "days will be shortened" other than just shortening the DURATION of the "tribulation period." Imagine with me a 2-dimensional chart of the timeline covering this "tribulation period." Now, picture it as a bar graph, such that each year has one bar and the height of the bar represents the number of "tribulation days" within that year. If the bars were reduced in height, the number of days within that tribulation period would still be reduced, even if the LENGTH of the timeline of that tribulation period was not shortened.
  7. Shalom, HAZARD. Or, so goes the theological rhetoric! Where does it say "our souls go to Heaven if we are in Christ"? Regarding the book by Yhudah ("Jude," which in Greek, "Ioudas" would be pronounced "ee-oo-das'"), here's more of the passage: Jude 11-16 (KJV) 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain (Greek: Ka-in pronounced "kah'-in"), and ran greedily after the error of Balaam (Greek: Bala-am pronouced "bal-ah-am'") for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core (Greek: Kore pronounced "kor-eh'"). 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (A quote from the First Book of Chanokh [Enoch], a Jewish work of the 1st Century A.D.) 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Of course, both Jude 14-15 and this "First Book of Chanokh" may be alluding to Deuteronomy 33:1-5: Deuteronomy 33:1-5 (KJV) 1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, "The LORD came from (Mount) Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words." 4 Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob. 5 And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together. However, if we accept that this phrase is about a future time (instead of when Mosheh ["Moses"] was leading the children of Israel from Mount Sinai), we're not told when or where He should "pick them up!" You're suggesting that He shall pick them up from this mythical place called "Heaven" and bring them here to earth with Him. I believe that He shall pick them up on the Day of the First Resurrection from wherever they are currently buried, and they shall return to the Land of Israel with Him! Definitions make a WORLD of difference! "Soul," in both the Hebrew word "nefesh" or the Greek "psuchee," means "an air-breathing creature." "Heaven," in both the Hebrew word "shaamayim" or the Greek word "ouranos," means "the sky." There's another Greek word that Paul used (or the translator of Paul's works used) for things "above the sky," "epouranios." This word was used for the "sun, moon, and stars" in 1 Corinthians 15 above. This word is the adjective form of "ouranos" combined with the word "epi" which means "over, upon, or above." (The Hebrew uses the phrase "shaameey hashaamayim," or the "heavens of the heavens.")
  8. Shalom, HAZARD. Thank you for taking me to one of my favorite chapters in the Bible! This is the chapter that introduces us to the work of Yeshua` upon the cross. I think you're not realizing that, when a person dies, the soul ceases to exist; that is, the AIR-BREATHING YOU succumbs to decay and death and is no longer AIR-BREATHING, and lies peacefully, motionless in the grave or tomb or at sea or as a pile of ash from the crematory. YOU won't awaken until the First Resurrection and when YOU do, the next thing YOU will know is "the presence of the Lord!" Another passage of Scripture to which the believers at Korinth were already introduced is 1 Corinthians 15, which is about the Resurrection: 1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (KJV) 35 But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up?" and "with what body do they come?" 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men (Greek: sarx ... anthroopoon = "flesh/meat of-men"), another flesh of beasts (Greek: sarx kteenoon = "flesh/meat of-land-animals"), another of fishes (Greek: [sarx] ichthuoon = "[flesh/meat] of-sea-creatures"), and another of birds (Greek: sarx pteenoon = "flesh/meat of-birds"). 40 There are also (Greek: kai = "and/also [there are]") celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania = "bodies above/upon-[the]-sky"), and bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia = "bodies above/upon-[the]-ground"): but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another (Greek: alla hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa, hetera de hee toon epigeioon = "but one truly [is] the radiance of-the [bodies]-above-the-sky, but one the [radiance] of-the [bodies]-upon-the-ground". 41 There is one glory of the sun (Greek: allee doxa heeliou = "a-different radiance of-the-sun"), and another glory of the moon (Greek: allee doxa seleenees = "a-different radiance of-the-moon"), and another glory of the stars (Greek: allee doxa asteeroon = "a-different radiance of-the-stars"): for one star differeth from another star in glory (Greek: asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee = "for a-star differs from-a-star in radiance"). 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (Greek: en fthora = "in decay"); it is raised in incorruption (Greek: en aftharsia = "in indestructibility"): 43 It is sown in dishonour (Greek: en atimia = "in mediocracy/unrecognized"); it is raised in glory (Greek: en doxa = "in radiance/fame"): it is sown in weakness(Greek: en astheneia = "in weakness/frailty"); it is raised in power (Greek: en dunamei = "in strength/energy": 44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "an-air-breathing body"); it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "an-air-blasting body"). There is a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "an air-breathing body"), and there is a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "an air-blasting body"). 45 And so it is written, "The" first man, "Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "a living air-breather")." (Gen. 2:7); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "a life-giving wind"). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (Greek: ek gees, choikos = "out-of [the]-earth dirt-like"), : the second man is [the Lord] from heaven (Greek: ex ouranou = "out-of [the]-sky"). 48 As is the earthy (Greek: ho choikos = "the dirt-like"), such are they also that are earthy (Greek hoi choikoi = "the dirt-like" [plural]): and as is the heavenly (Greek: ho epouranios = "the above-the-sky-like" [singular]), such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: hoi epouranioi = "the above-the-sky-like" [plural]). 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. A body is a group of organs; an organ is a group of specially designated cells, a cell is an organization of a group of chemicals controlled by DNA, and those chemicals are a group of molecules and atoms. In no matter which state we are in as bodies, to re-constitute the body entirely will take an act of CREATION! GOD PERFECTLY REMEMBERS US and SHALL RECREATE US JUST AS WE WERE before death! THEN, will come our transformation from "SOULUAL" bodies to "SPIRITUAL" bodies: 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV) 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (never to decay again), and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption (never being able to decay again), and this mortal must put on immortality (never being able to die again). 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isaiah 25:8) 55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (Hosea 13:14b) 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Now, you may THINK that "soulual" is a made-up word, and I'll confess it is a made-up word to a degree, but that's what the GREEK looks like: sooma psuchikon = "soulual" body, comes from "psuchee," translated "soul," and sooma pneumatikon = "spiritual" body, comes from "pneuma," translated "spirit." But, in the "spiritual body" sense, it is talking about "air-BLASTING" as opposed to merely "air-breathing." Study this closely! You shall be blessed (made happy) if you do.
  9. Shalom, HAZARD. Okay, let's get the easy ones out of the way first: Luke 12:20, "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'" Just plug in the definition: Luke 12:20, "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your air-breather is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'" Revelation 20:4, Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Ditto: Revelation 20:4, Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the air-breathers of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. This is, after all, the First Resurrection! Ecclesiastes 12:7, Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. Now, regarding Ecclesiastes 12:7, which doesn't use the word "nefesh" ("soul") but uses "ruwach" ("spirit") instead, we have to substitute "breath" instead: Ecclesiastes 12:7, Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the breath will return to God who gave it. Which is precisely what He gave to the first man when he was created. Finally, Matthew 10:28: First, let's make sure we're using the right wording in translation by going back to the Greek. First the KJV, which has been one of the best translations for over 400 years. (Please note that I did NOT say that the KJV was PERFECT!) Matthew 10:28 (KJV) 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Here's the same verse in the Greek: Kata Maththaion 10:28 (UBS Greek New Testament) 28 Kai mee fobeisthe apo toon apoktennontoon to sooma, teen de psucheen mee dunamenoon apokteinai fobeisthe de mallon ton dunamenon kai psucheen kai sooma apolesai en ge-ennee. So, one thing to note is that this verse doesn't use "hadees" for the English word "hell"; it uses "ge-enna" or as it is often written "gehenna." This is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase "gei-Hinnom," which means "valley of-Hinnom." A second thing is in the choice of words used for "kill" and "destroy." "Kill" is from the Greek word "apokteinoo": 615 apokteinoo (ap-ok-ti'-no). From apo and kteinoo (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy -- put to death, kill, slay. Literally, it means to "kill off." "Destroy" comes from the Greek word "apollumi": 622 apollumi (ap-pal-loo'-mee). From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish. 3639 olethros (ol'-eth-ros). From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction. Literally, it means to "destroy off" or to "destroy away." It's like to "wipe out any memory of." I'll let you figure out the rest, but this is talking about the JUDGMENT of the Messiah throughout the Millennium for the end of the "valley of Hinnom" is just outside of Jerusalem, where the kings of Israel used to set up their judgment seat. On the right hand side was the Golden Gate. On the left hand side facing Jerusalem was the trash heap where prisoners were executed.
  10. Shalom, HAZARD. Well, I must admit, this is one of your better arguments. However, you're forgetting the NATURE of the Son of God, who was and IS the Word (John 1:1-18)! No, I don't believe the "story" (actually, the ACCOUNT, since a "story" implies a "fable") of the rich man and Elezar ("Lazarus") was a parable. Nor was it some allegory for the Jews and Gentiles. HOWEVER, as is frequently the case, such as on the Mount of Olives, Yeshua` would often peer off into the future and add things that haven't happened, yet! As I said before, the term "hadees" ("Hades") means the "unseen" and refers to the future. The rich man has his tongue, his voice, his ears to hear, and could be tortured in flames. Elezar had at least a finger and a means of locomotion (legs and feet). Thus, they, as bodies, were ALREADY RESURRECTED!
  11. Shalom, HAZARD. I'll bother if I like! I believe that YOU are the one who's "way off base." Would you please show me FROM THE BIBLE that "OUR SOULS NEVER DIE"? SHOW ME that "the soul is immortal!" You won't find it, because it's not there. Do you know who first said that the "soul is immortal?" It was SOCRATES, as recorded by PLATO! This was GREEK philosophy based on GREEK mythology! It was adopted by ORIGEN OF ALEXANDRIA (184-253 A.D.) when he composed his theology. One of his schools was called "Neoplatonism." It's what Randy Alcorn called "Christoplatonism" in his Appendix A: Christoplatonism's False Assumptions at the end of his book, Heaven. Now, as far as Matthew 17 and the account of the transfiguration on the mount, you didn't read far enough: Matthew 17:1-13 (KJV) 1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, "Arise, and be not afraid." 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, "Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, "Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?" 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them." 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. So, the whole episode was a VISION of the future! Consider what Yeshua` said just prior to this episode: Matthew 16:24-28 (KJV) 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Particularly, that was Peter, James, and John who would see the Son of man coming in His Kingdom. So, this was a foretaste of what it will be like when Yeshua` comes in the brightness of His Father with His messengers. Mosheh ("Moses") and Eliyahuw ("Elias" or "Elijah") were not actually there; they saw a VISION. (Sorry this is a little late; the site [or a transfer site] was down when I was trying to post last night.)
  12. Shalom, HAZARD. Yep, for real. Look, every time you see the word "soul" in a statement, just substitute "air-breathing creature" for that word. Our "air-breathing creatures" DO die! However, because of the resurrections, whether one has done good or bad, he will be raised to life and shall live forever either as an "air-breathing creature" in paradise (the New Earth with the New Jerusalem) or as an "air-breathing creature" thrown into the Lake of Fire. You asked, "Did Jesus take the souls who were in Paradise with Him to Heaven when He ascended on high?" The answer is simply, "No." First of all, again, one should substitute "air-breathing creatures" for "souls." That makes your question, "Did Jesus take the air-breathing creatures who were in Paradise with Him to Heaven when He ascended on high?" The answer to this is a question: WHAT "air-breathing creatures?" Second, you're assuming that paradise was in the center of the earth. Now, I know this has been taught a LONG time, but that doesn't make it so! "Paradise" means "a park," specifically "a park of trees!" NT:3857 paradeisos (par-ad-i'-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise. This is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew word pardeec: OT:6508 pardeec (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park -- forest, orchard. And, lest we forget, Gan-Eden (the Garden of Eden) is described in just that way: Genesis 2:8-9 (KJV) 8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So, the answer to the second part is also a question: WHAT "park in the center of the earth?" Third, you're pulling Ephesians 4:8-9 out of context ... TWICE ... all to make the excuse that it's talking about Yeshua` leading captivity captive to some mythical place called "Heaven!" Gotta go for now; I'll write more later.
  13. Shalom, HAZARD. "Our souls never die" is false. "Our souls will live forever" in one place or another is accurate ONLY because of what Yeshua` said: John 5:25-29 (KJV) 25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." We don't "have bodies"; we ARE bodies! Your explanation of things is PURE, THEOLOGICAL, FICTITIOUS RHETORIC!!! It's NOT biblical nor is it truth! Our body is NOT "reunited with our soul!" THAT'S the fiction! Instead, one as a body in the grave will be resurrected and BECOME a soul - an air-breather - once again! And, your understanding of Ephesians 4:8-9 is WRONG!!! Look up the quotation from the Old Testament scriptures and read it in context! Your theological stance here is pure fiction!
  14. Shalom, HAZARD. Excuse me, but I've NEVER "twisted Scripture!" And, it's not a "pet theory"; it's what makes sense when you take everything into consideration. Our "SOULS" - our "AIR-BREATHING CREATURES" - CEASE TO EXIST when we die, for - guess what - we don't breathe air when we're DEAD! Therefore, they neither "go to heaven" nor "go to hell" when we die. Instead, we "go to the grave (or tomb or crematory)" when we die! We await the RESURRECTION!!! Romans 8:18-23 (KJV) 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory (brightness) which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest (down payment) expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation (revealing) of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption (buying back) of our body. Again, look CAREFULLY at Genesis 2:7: Genesis 2:7 (KJV) 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. In Hebrew, this is ... B'reeshiyt 2:7 (JPS Tanakh) 7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'Aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayyipah b'apaahyow nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'Aadaam lnefesh chayyaah: 7 Vayiytser = 7 And-formed YHWH =ADONAI, the LORD Elohiym = God et = (next word is the direct object) haa'Aadaam = the-Red-[Man] (m.); "Adam" `aafaar = of-dust min = from haa'adaamaah = the-red-[ground] (f.) vayyipah = and-puffed b'apaahyow = in/into-his-nostrils nishmat = a-puff chayiym = of-living-[creatures] vayhiy = and-became haa'Aadaam = the-Red-[Man]; "Adam" lnefesh = to-an-air-breathing-creature chayyaah: = living: And, look again at the definition and origin of "nefesh": 5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it. 5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed). No twisting of Scripture here. If anything, it's an UNTWISTING of a common, Hebrew word!
  15. Shalom, HAZARD. And around and around we go, again! This is how we started! I could say just read through my arguments again, but I doubt that you read them the first time. So, I'll just say that you need to read them FOR THE FIRST TIME more carefully! Anyway, I'm not missing anything, but you are. There is NOTHING in ANY of these verses that say that "our soul goes to Heaven!" Again, you don't know what "paradise" means, and you are WRONG to think that He had to be "in the underworld!" This is all from the Greek mythology!!! I don't believe everything that Randy Alcorn says in his books, but you REALLY need to read the Appendix A in his book simply entitled "Heaven." It's entitled "Christoplatonism's False Assumptions." Anyway, I've got no more time tonight.
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