apothanein kerdos Posted October 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2006 If works mean nothing in our salvation the why does James say that we are justified by our works? Because of the context (before men we are justified) and the fact that no where in the entire book does he speak about salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 If works mean nothing in our salvation the why does James say that we are justified by our works? It takes grace, faith, and works to be justified before God. If I leave any of these out then it is in vain. James chapter two is not a treatise on salvation like John 3: 1-17 or Ephesians 2:8-10. Part of the problem is that you see the word "justification" in the text and are disregarding the line of thought within the chapter. "Justification" simply means "to be declared right." It is a legal term but it can be used in contexts other than our spiritual justification by God. James is not talking about we get saved. The entire book of James is concerned with how we live out our faith. The book of James is a very practical book and his concern was with mature Christian living. This is seen poignantly in the 2nd chapter, where he discusses faith and works. Starting in v 14 of chapter 2, Paul is returning to the subject matter discussed in James 1: 22-27. In fact, 2:14-26 should be read long with 1:22-27, as they pertain to the same subject matter. In verse 14, he asks: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (James 2:14) The question is obviously rhetorical. The obvious answer is NO. His point is that faith that does not produce works is not genuine faith. Those who profess faith in Christ, but bear no fruit have a false profession. They intellectually assent to the truth of Christ, but they have not made a commitment to Him from the heart. Mentally assenting to the things of God does not bear fruit for the Kingdom of God and is, therefore, not genuine faith. James then gives an example of this from a practical real life situation: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (James 2:15-17) Mental assent is just as worthless when it comes to easing the suffering of the poor. If a person is hungry and cold, what good is it to merely acknowledge their need? Words and sympathies in and of themselves are useless apart from any corresponding action. James' point here is that simply acknowledging the truth in Scripture is just as useless if it not accompanied by corresponding action. If your faith in Christ is real, if your love for Christ is real, they will produce a life and lifestyle that is in line with true faith and true love. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:18-19) James takes it further and says, "show me your faith without your works." It is impossible. Try describing the color "red" to a blind man who was born in blindness, and has never seen color. How would you do it? It is just as impossible to show your faith without works. You cannot demonstrate your faith to the world, if they have no actions, no works to look at. Your works prove to a watching world whether your faith in Christ is genuine, or not. Mental assent, simply believing in God means nothing, and James said that even demons know that God exists. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:20-26) James gives us some examples from the Bible. How do we KNOW that Abraham had faith? How do KNOW that Rahab had faith? We know this because of their works. We have concrete examples from the Bible of people whose faith was accompanied by genuine works that prove that they were not operating simply on an intellectual level. James point is that our works justify our profession. It is our works that prove our profession of faith in Christ to be true. James is not saying that our works justify us, or make us righteous in the sight of God. Rather, his point is that we are justified in the sight of men when they can see our good works and glorify our Father which is in heaven. Our works are not for our salvation but for God's glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neopatriarch Posted October 19, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 167 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2006 If I had faith without works could I be saved? What exactly are works as described in Ephesians 2:8,9 and in James 2:20? Ephesians 2:8-10 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2006 If I had faith without works could I be saved? What exactly are works as described in Ephesians 2:8,9 and in James 2:20? Ephesians 2:8-10 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2006 If I had faith without works could I be saved? This is a false hypothetical. True faith begets works. Works cannot support faith because works, in order to come about, must begin internalized and find a manifestation in the physical world. Thus if no works occur then there was no faith there to cause the said works to begin with. Likewise, if works occur then then faith has already been formed within the person. It is the equivalent to asking, "If I had a house with no foundation would it still stand up?" Of course not...I would say you can have a foundation without a house but it would not be a place which could provide shelter and would only be the beginnings of what a true house would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 19, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2006 If I had faith without works could I be saved? This is a false hypothetical. True faith begets works. Works cannot support faith because works, in order to come about, must begin internalized and find a manifestation in the physical world. Thus if no works occur then there was no faith there to cause the said works to begin with. Likewise, if works occur then then faith has already been formed within the person. It is the equivalent to asking, "If I had a house with no foundation would it still stand up?" Of course not...I would say you can have a foundation without a house but it would not be a place which could provide shelter and would only be the beginnings of what a true house would be. That is not a fair assesment. Their are many individuals in society who suffer from mental illnesses that keep them from dealing with the public because they suffer from lack of confidence, their anxieties keep them from interacting with society, so you are basicalkly saying that these believers cannot achieve salvatioin and that it is by works that we are saved. Peace CJ How does any of what I said even come close to a works based salvation? Are you saying that God cannot overcome social anxiety? Is the Holy Spirit so weak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 If I had faith without works could I be saved? What exactly are works as described in Ephesians 2:8,9 and in James 2:20? The problem is that you are trying to compare two passages that are not talking about the same thing. They do not speak to the same subject matter. This is why I say that it is inappropriate to just grab a verse from one book of the Bible, and a verse from another book and string them together. You are ignoring the lines of thought in which those verses appear, and in doing so you do great violence to the Scriptures. Your first question demonstrates that you really don't know how salvation works. We are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace. This is stated for us in several places. The Bible tells us over and over, that we are saved by grace. Twice in Ephesians chapter two, alone we are told "It is by grace ye are saved" (2:5, 8). Faith is the means by which we appropriate the free gift of grace. Of course, faith plays an even bigger role in the day to day life of the believer, but that is for another thread. A better way to phrase the question would be, "if I had faith, could I be saved without the grace of God?" It is God's grace that both initiates and sustains salvation. I would also add that when a Christian gets a hold of the grace of God and develops a true spiritual understanding of just grace is, that knowledge and understanding creates a desire to please the Lord. You know, it is like if someone saved your life, or the life of one of your children... how much would your relationship with that person change? Likewise when we see just how much grace cost the Lord, and we realize how much we owe to Him, it does not produce a desire to live in sin, it only strengthens our love for Him, and our resolve to live for Him no matter the cost. In short, understanding grace makes us better Christians, not worse. Now to your second question. Works are works. Paul does not add any qualifiers to this. People have tried to say that this applies only to the commandments of the Torah. This nonsensical argument holds that we are are not saved by the works of the law, but we are saved by some mysterious different set of "works." It has been propagated on this board by someone before, I don't remember who, but it demonstrates another deficiency in understanding how the Bible defines works. Salvation cannot be by works EVER, because no matter what "work" is attached to it, there would be someone unable to live up to it. If God said, for example, that to be saved, you had to believe in Jesus AND wear a red T-shirt, there would be some folks in this world, without access to a red T-shirt. Therefore salvation would not for everyone, but only for those who are fortunate enough to be born in the right part of the world. What would also happen is that the emphasis then would be on the red T-shirt, and pretty soon everybody would be trying to "out -red" everybody else. Pretty soon, my T-shirt would be redder than yours, which only proves that I am a better Christian than you (and probably more "saved"). If you loved the Lord, your T-shirt would be as red as mine, and I would go around judging other people's salvation by how red their T-shirts are. In fact, given your lack of redness, you probably aren't saved anymore, since you have let your redness fade. Salvation then becomes all about the red T-shirt, and oh yeah, Jesus too. Jesus would end up on the back burner. However, when It is by grace, and grace alone that I am saved, through faith, I cannot compare myself to you. I am just as bankrupt, perverted and wretched as you are. The only one I can compare myself to, is Jesus. He is the plumline. Jesus lived out God's standard of Holiness perfectly, and then some. Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith, and as the living Word, He is the standard by which all men are judged. When I am busy trying to be like Jesus, I don't have time, nor desire to compare myself to you. God in his grace, offers to impute Jesus' righteousness to us and declare us justified based upon the cross. We are declared as righteous as if Adam had never sinned. The only works that save us, are the works that Jesus did on the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scum_of_the_Earth Posted October 20, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 153 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/09/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1983 Share Posted October 20, 2006 No, I believe in the perseverance of the saints. That is a different doctrine alltogether I agree with this statement. I don't hold to the term "OSAS", but I believe in eternal security. I concur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 20, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 20, 2006 If I had faith without works could I be saved? What exactly are works as described in Ephesians 2:8,9 and in James 2:20? There are many people who truly beleive in God but yet due to unknown reasons don't do works according to Christ. Christ gave us only two commandments to follow, "Love the Lord they God with all they heart and soul." and "Love thy neighbour as much as you love yourself." Some love their brothers and sisters so much that they make it their life's pursuit to help those that are poor, ill, homeless, elderly, lost from the word etc. There are those who abide by these two commandments but yet may never achieve any rewards for having profitable works. If they spent their lives serving their own interests and never giving back to the community then their works are to be considered fruitless, any "works" that do not serve God are fruitless works and will be burned away in the judgment of fire. If there is nothing left, it all get's burned away then you have no reward but you have achieved salvation by faith. Peace CJ I don't expect to receive any rewards, I just hope to live, and barely at that, that would be just remarkable to me yet I believe it is true. But faith without works does not exist. When you say doing works according to Christ what do you mean? Every true believer sins, and even the most holy human, if his sins were not covered by the blood of Christ would be seen by God as a filthy pig deserving of death. Our works are simply a reflex action which shows our love of Christ, they don't impress God in the least. But our love for Christ does make God happy. Lewis spoke of them this way. When you give you child a dollar to buy a present for his mother, and he does it, is the mother happy? Yes of course, does she really believe the child used his own money that he earned and is really impressed by his gift? No probably not, but the love shown by the child is what she loves, just as David tells us the Psalms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddaeus Posted October 20, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 375 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2006 Question? Could someone please explain the difference since you make it look as if they are different. I agree with this statement. I don't hold to the term "OSAS", but I believe in eternal security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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