Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[JesusFreak1986]

Somwehere in the bible it says, once saved, you could not fall away. Even if you could, there would be no coming back. For to do so, Jesus would have to be on earth and crucified again, putting him to open shame. There is no way that God would allow that. Once was enough, Once and for all.

[patricia1]

I think the parable of the sower and the seed gives some of the answer. The seed on rocky places, that sprang up, but was later scorched. The seed among weeds, that grew, but was choked. These could be examples of saved people "losing it"

I like to teach?preach on the wedding banquet. God sends out invitations to a wedding(His Sons) now you send out invitations to people who you know and know you. They were to busy with the things God gave them. Eventually God went out into the highways and byways for people. Who was sitting at the banquet table?

I believe there are different levels of rewards in heaven as well. You will be surprised when you get up there to see who is there .[center

GALATIONS 5;1-5 you can fall from Grace verse 19 to 21 are talking to the CHRISTIAN not the SINNER

ROMANS 11:18-22 YOU can be cut off pay attention to verse 22

EPH 5: 3-5 christian can have no inheritance in heaven

REVELATIONS TALKS ABOUT HAVING YOUR NAME BEING REMOVED FROM tHE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE!!!! Is He talking about sinners i don't think so. Paul talks about in 1cor, I believe, about checking out your life especially himself because he didn't want to be preaching the gospel and not get to heaven. love in christ patricia

Edited July 28, 2007 by patricia1

[fromthesouth]

I think the very first thing we need to be sure of before we worry about whether we can lose our salvation is..are we really saved?

In Matthew 7:21, it says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter." Read on till verse 27 and you will get a clearer picture.

I read a very interesting article about this by John Piper www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByTitle/1108_The_Agonizing_Problem_of_the_Assurance_of_Salvation

He said some people think they have saving faith but don

[larryt]

I think it is interesting that no one has taken up my challenge to take up the verses that are difficult for your position, and honestly wrestle with them

Hi EricH,

I did note your previous post but I really don't have any problems with the so called hard verses. Those that have been brought up by others I believe fit into the perseverance of the saints position(OSAS/P in TULIP). Thaddaeous I think has been trying to give reasons for his position in the verses that that attack his position but some of his other theology I find as very unorthodox to my thinking.(He is Eastern Orthodox I believe)

I have posted some verses that I think cannot be reconciled but the LOS position and I have not heard any reasonable argument to the contrary.

Most of the discussion though has been civil IMO.

LT

[larryt]

Because you have two sides of a coin here. All the scriptures that those who believe in OSAS are exactly true, but they are true to those whose hearts stay with God. If my heart is true to live Christianity and do his will giving my life and heart to him then all that you are saying is true.

The other side of the coin is that there are those who will turn their backs on God and walk with him no more and there will be those who will try to keep sins in their lives not wanting to repent of the yet want God also.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith.

Neither of these Christians will make it to heaven if they don't repent of their sins.

So what sins are they that were not forgiven at the cross?

Where do you from this that there were not certain sins forgiven at the cross? All of man's PAST sins are forgiven when they are born again. Each sin done after that needs to be repented of and confession made for forgiveness (1 John 1:9)

Hi cardcaptor,

Why do you conclude that there were not certain sins forgiven at the cross? I was asking you a question based on your statement: "if they don't repent of their sins." All my sins, past, present, and future were dealt with by Christ on the cross. He paid the debt for them all. The fallacy of your thinking is that if a person has continually repented after sinning and on the last instance for some reason does not get around to repenting and dies in the the middle of a particular sin then he is forfeit and goes to hell.

God is not to weak to save anybody. God is willing to save anybody who is willing to come to him, but if I choose sin over God then he will have nothing to do with me.

The new man/the born again man/the new creation cannot sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Not only does he not practice sin but he CANNOT SIN.

That is impossible. What you are saying here is that man cannot sin after he was born again. That would create a huge paradox in the bible. Read these verses. The ones that I keep posting, but it seems people are ignoring -

cardc,

I am very interested in your exegesis of 1John 3:9. It says what it says. How do you reconcile it with your theology?

Isaiah 59:1-3 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

The only way God can keep me from falling is if I want him to. Everything relies on my faith in God. If I want to overcome my sins and live the life he has called mankind to live, then God is there for us all the way. But, we can't fool God. If I try to hide sin in my life not wanting to repent of it then I stand a chance of losing God and my hope of heaven.

If you think that you can hide sin then you never knew Him, you don't know God, at least the God of the bible. Maybe you have created a god after you own imagination. That is idolatry and many have I met that fall into that category.

Ya think??!!

Ephesians 5:3-5 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

"Once becometh saints" means after I have become a Christian. So, if as a Christian I have sins like these in my life then I have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let's quote that verse correctly. it says: let it(sin) not be once named among you, as becometh saints.(since you are saints) ..... For you know(who know? We do) that "sinners" have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ & God, i.e. they are not christians.

You are completely interpreting these scriptures wrong to justify your own understanding just so that you can say that Christians can't sin.

The word "it" is speaking of sin, but it is speaking of those who have become saints.

Here is the rest of the context.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things(what things? those just mentioned) cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience(these are not christians).

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them(unbelievers).

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

This whole passage is dealing with contrasting the new life and the old. Paul is exhorting them to walk in the light if in fact they are really true believers. By living in the old ways they prove that they never were changed and become new.

To many people say that if a Christian falls away then they were never a Christian any way. These scriptures say different as they are speaking about Christians.

That's what John says! 1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

That scripture does not support that they were never Christians. Nobody can say who was or never was a Christian except God. This is just another way to support OSAS doctrine.

The bible uses several metaphors to describe false believers: wheat and tares, wolves in sheeps clothing, bad fruit coming from bad stock, good from good stock,

And the context is about infiltraters that are not believers. You didn't check the verse before you commented. I appears to me that it is you that is trying to justify your position.

1Jo 2:18

[patricia1]

Somwehere in the bible it says, once saved, you could not fall away. Even if you could, there would be no coming back. For to do so, Jesus would have to be on earth and crucified again, putting him to open shame. There is no way that God would allow that. Once was enough, Once and for all.

The bible never says that and you are misquoting those verses. It says that if we fall away that it is impossible to renew us.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When we fall away and our lives are filled with the same sins that God forgave us for when we were born again then we stand a good chance on loosing the Holy Spirit that we were given and sealed with until the day of redemption. If we lose him the we cannot get him back because he is given to us when we are born again and only then.

Christ died on the cross so that we can have forgiveness for our sins and receive the Holy Spirit. It won't happen a second time.

People and denominations have come up with OSAS and not losing salvation to teach a watered down feel good doctrine that makes everybody feel they can keep their sins because Jesus does/did everything for us on cross.

This is why we have churches that have both members and pastors living in fornication/adultery, members and/or preachers that are homosexual, drunkards, liars, thieves, etc. There are actually churches and denominations that teach that we cannot sin and that all of our sins are automatically forgiven. That takes away from repentance.

My brother joined a major denomination, where he is a teacher, and is still a drunkard, liar, potty mouth, tells dirty and even religious jokes, etc. He has bee there for around 10 years. This is what we are supposed to do as Christians -

Ephesians 4:21-32 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

This is what we are supposed to become as a Christian, but even here there are people that will argue with me that there is nothing that we can do of ourselves because Christ did everything for us.

Christian means "Christ Like".

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Christ didn't drink, smoke, cuss, fornicate, lie, steal, cheat, etc. We are to repent of our sins and do as Eph 4 says.

Jesus freak hello there are asking because you think you may be able to get away with things and remain a christian? Harold camping would say. once saved always saved, some would call in and ask about a certain sin and then he would answer well, they were never really saved in the first place then. He would drive me nutz. I don't listen any more. why are you concerned? If red letter scripture states your name once written CAN BE REMOVED FROM THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE THERE SHOULD BE NO IF ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT I,, you are looking for a tiny bit of agreement so you can give yourself permission to do something not great perhaps. Sorry this may sound harsh but I call it as I see it and I pray it is through my Fathers eyes and not my own!!!

[EricH]

Thats really what this thread has degenerated into. People proof texting without really intereacting with what others are saying. It is probably serving no purpose now other than to let people "grandstand" by presenting their views

[patricia1]

Somwehere in the bible it says, once saved, you could not fall away. Even if you could, there would be no coming back. For to do so, Jesus would have to be on earth and crucified again, putting him to open shame. There is no way that God would allow that. Once was enough, Once and for all.

The bible never says that and you are misquoting those verses. It says that if we fall away that it is impossible to renew us.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When we fall away and our lives are filled with the same sins that God forgave us for when we were born again then we stand a good chance on loosing the Holy Spirit that we were given and sealed with until the day of redemption. If we lose him the we cannot get him back because he is given to us when we are born again and only then.

Christ died on the cross so that we can have forgiveness for our sins and receive the Holy Spirit. It won't happen a second time.

People and denominations have come up with OSAS and not losing salvation to teach a watered down feel good doctrine that makes everybody feel they can keep their sins because Jesus does/did everything for us on cross.

This is why we have churches that have both members and pastors living in fornication/adultery, members and/or preachers that are homosexual, drunkards, liars, thieves, etc. There are actually churches and denominations that teach that we cannot sin and that all of our sins are automatically forgiven. That takes away from repentance.

My brother joined a major denomination, where he is a teacher, and is still a drunkard, liar, potty mouth, tells dirty and even religious jokes, etc. He has bee there for around 10 years. This is what we are supposed to do as Christians -

Ephesians 4:21-32 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

This is what we are supposed to become as a Christian, but even here there are people that will argue with me that there is nothing that we can do of ourselves because Christ did everything for us.

Christian means "Christ Like".

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Christ didn't drink, smoke, cuss, fornicate, lie, steal, cheat, etc. We are to repent of our sins and do as Eph 4 says.

Jesus freak hello there are asking because you think you may be able to get away with things and remain a christian? Harold camping would say. once saved always saved, some would call in and ask about a certain sin and then he would answer well, they were never really saved in the first place then. He would drive me nutz. I don't listen any more. why are you concerned? If red letter scripture states your name once written CAN BE REMOVED FROM THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE THERE SHOULD BE NO IF ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT I,, you are looking for a tiny bit of agreement so you can give yourself permission to do something not great perhaps. Sorry this may sound harsh but I call it as I see it and I pray it is through my Fathers eyes and not my own!!!

I am so sorry to be laughing. ...You guys are still here dicussing this matter. The book of Hebrews were written to both the jewish christian who was in danger of apostasy and those who were trying to stand firm but weakening. They under persecution and perhaps were thinking to turn back to the law. I am sure there will be this happening again many will fall and away, many will betray their sisters and brothers. The word of God say so. It would be the same as when the hebrews complained to Moses and wanted to go back to egypt. Praise the Lord they did not!!!! there are many different words for repentence and they all have different meanings.

when esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew...., a bowl of stew no less and the cried... was his heart repentive?

After his belly was full and tears flowed was he truly upset over hurting Gods heart or over loosing out. Esau was called godless annd immoral and his tribe remains the same today. I still will always believe I can lose my Salvation...keeps me in check as well.

The difference between law and grace spoken of in hebrews the similarities of, able and cain, esau and jacob is not to be taken lightly. It protrays the churches of today a little of this ... a little of that.. some are half baked and some are fully baked. There is no perfect people or church but we have the perfect word of God.!!!

[TomPJr]

If our hearts are hardened to much to hear Gods voice calling us to repentence, then we will never ask for forgiveness.

That begs the question, "If God condemns us on the basis of our not having the ability or will to ask for forgiveness before we die, what happens when a Chrsitian dies suddenly and unexpectedly, without the opportunity to ask for forgiveness of his "dirt" (sins)?

Eternal punishment for a single sin without opportunity for repentance seems a bit extreme, don't you think?

Ovedya.... I respectfully ask you to think about something....

If you think that is extreme, what about torturing somebody endlessly without end in the lake of fire because of some 70 0r 80 years of sin in this life. Don't you think that is extreme? That is what common Christian Dogma teaches.

My point is this....

God Knows your heart...you may die with an unrepented sin and still be saved, it's all about your heart. I heard a parable once that went something like this...

there was a man that had given his heart to the Lord and from time to time he slipped back in to his old ways, but repented. After all, he was human. His heart desired to please God, and even though he really wanted to please God, once in a while he would slip and fall. God was with him though, and he would always get up again. One day he was killed in a tragic accident before he had a chance to repent of his last sin,,, and so Satan laughed as he charged God that the mans soul belonged to him, but God Responded...."I know his heart, and if given more time on earth, he would have repented... therefore his soul belongs to me."

Moral of the story- GOD KNOWS YOUR HEART......Where is yours?

[Ovedya]

If our hearts are hardened to much to hear Gods voice calling us to repentence, then we will never ask for forgiveness.

That begs the question, "If God condemns us on the basis of our not having the ability or will to ask for forgiveness before we die, what happens when a Chrsitian dies suddenly and unexpectedly, without the opportunity to ask for forgiveness of his "dirt" (sins)?

Eternal punishment for a single sin without opportunity for repentance seems a bit extreme, don't you think?

Ovedya.... I respectfully ask you to think about something....

If you think that is extreme, what about torturing somebody endlessly without end in the lake of fire because of some 70 0r 80 years of sin in this life. Don't you think that is extreme? That is what common Christian Dogma teaches.

My point is this....

God Knows your heart...you may die with an unrepented sin and still be saved, it's all about your heart. I heard a parable once that went something like this...

there was a man that had given his heart to the Lord and from time to time he slipped back in to his old ways, but repented. After all, he was human. His heart desired to please God, and even though he really wanted to please God, once in a while he would slip and fall. God was with him though, and he would always get up again. One day he was killed in a tragic accident before he had a chance to repent of his last sin,,, and so Satan laughed as he charged God that the mans soul belonged to him, but God Responded...."I know his heart, and if given more time on earth, he would have repented... therefore his soul belongs to me."

Moral of the story- GOD KNOWS YOUR HEART......Where is yours?

If the reasoning is simply "God knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart," then isn't OSNAS undermined? Because, as being a man, one cannot truly know the thoughts and intentions of another man's heart. Therefore one cannot truly say with confidence that a single unforgiven sin would result in eternal torment. So then it is not as clear-cut as the proponents of OSNAS would have us believe.

Wouldn't God be just as unrighteous for condemning a man to eternal torment for a single unforgiven sin as He would be by not punishing the unforgiven sin?

(Incidentally, I am of the camp that believes in the finality of the second death.)