Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Guest shiloh357]

All of the New Testement is an instructional guide as to what Christians are to be. Where people fail to realize is that Christianity does not stop at "By Grace Ye Are Saved". If that were true the Christ would have brought down a plack expressing just that instead of 27 books in which we are to be judged by.

This is part of the problem, you are framing the position of your opponents incorrectly. You are attributing to us, what we have not said. You are putting the lie in our mouths and then arguing against it. According your incorrect assessment of what we believe, you claim we do not believe in works, and that we stop at "by grace are ye saved." That only proves that you do not actual read the posts, or our remarks. Rather you have created an argument that you are imagining that we hold to, and then argue against what you have created in your own mind.

Not one of us, have said that we stop at the initial moment of salvation. What you seem to fail to understand about grace is that it does not stop there, either.

Grace is not just what saves us, but is sustains us and enables us to obey God. Implicit in every commandment of God, is the ability, the power to obey. Every commandment that God gives us to obey is accompanied by the grace, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to fulfill.

You seem to be arguing that we have to work for the grace of God in our lives. The problem is that it contradicts the fact that in the Bible grace is the ability to perform the commandments. One cannot successfully fulfill the commandments of God without His grace, His empowerment. So if we must perform the commandments in order to actually acquire the grace needed to obey said commandments in the first place, we are in quite a pickle. It would be a catch-22: We need the grace to obey and please God, but the grace is not available to us until we obey and please God. That makes absolutely no sense.

Again it is just more sloppy theology from you, Cardcaptor. You can put your faith in your filthy rags and hope your puny works will save you. I am a Christian though, and I will put my faith in Jesus Christ, and trust in Him and His Grace.

Oh and one other thing. We are not going to be judged by the 27 books of the New Testament. There is only one question that will be asked when you pass over: "Did you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?" If you Name is not written in the Lamb's book of Life, you will not enter the Kingdom. You will either stand before God under the law, or you will stand before God under grace. Only the unsaved will be judged by the Law. Christians have already been before the judge, and have been judged rightesus. We have already settled the account, and are Names are written in heaven above, Gory to Jesus!!!

[Guest stegokitty]

Easy Chairs, Hard Words, Part 3

By Douglas Wilson

"At last," I thought. "Now we should be able to talk about what brought me here in the first place." Pastor Spenser and I were both settling in chairs with the conversation already well under way.

"I know what your position is," I said. "But I am afraid that I still don't know why."

"And what is my position?" he said, smiling.

"Well, I assume that you believe that it is not possible for a Christian to lose his salvation...that's correct, isn't it."

"Sort of."

I grinned. "Way to come down clearly on the issue."

Pastor Spenser laughed. "There would be a lot more peace in the church if Christians learned to frame their questions more biblically."

"How do you mean?"

"The question is posed as to whether a Christian can lose his salvation, the pros and cons line up, and debate the question as it was posed. But salvation is not a personal possession of ours, like car keys, which can be misplaced by us."

"So what is the real question?"

"The way the question is usually asked, we wonder if a Christian can lose his salvation, which is the same as asking whether a Christian can lose Christ. Some say yes, and others no."

"And you would say...?"

"I would ask whether Christ can lose a Christian."

"I don't get you."

"Christians are those who are redeemed or purchased for God through the blood of Christ. We have been bought with a price. Now if someone, so purchased, winds up in Hell, then who has lost that person's salvation?"

"I'm sorry, I must be thick. I still don't get what you are driving at."

"Christians cannot lose their salvation, for the simple reason that their salvation does not belong to them. It belongs to Christ. If anyone is to lose it, it must be He. And He has promised not to."

"Where does the Bible teach that we are His possession?"

"There are many passages which cover this...too many to cover tonight. Why don't we just look at several? I'll give you a list of others."

"Fair enough."

"In Revelation 5:9-10, the new song in honor of the Lamb states that He has redeemed us to God by His blood - from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation."

"And..."

"In 1 Cor. 6:20, it says, `For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's."

"It seems pretty clear."

"Right. In salvation, Christ does not become our property; we become His. So in discussing this, we must remember that all the saving is done by Him. Those who want to maintain that salvation can be lost are really saying that He is one who loses it."

"This throws the whole debate into a completely different light."

"It does. And frankly, it is the difference between grace and works."

"How so?"

"To assert that a man can lose his salvation through what he does or does not do is to assert, in the final analysis, salvation by works."

"But the church in which I grew up taught that you can lose your salvation, but they also preached salvation by grace."

"Not quite. They preached a conversion experience by grace. But how is that experience to be maintained and protected? And by whom? They begin with the Spirit, but seek to finish through human effort."

I must have looked confused, so he continued.

"Were you ever taught that you could, by committing certain sins, place yourself outside of Christ?"

"Yes, and it terrified me."

"Now, let's say that you committed such a sin, and then were killed in a car wreck? Where would you go?"

"To Hell."

"And why?"

"Because I had sinned, and a holy God cannot look on sin."

"And your salvation, or lack of it, was up to whom?"

"You are arguing that it was up to me. I can tell you that it certainly felt that way. The more I wanted to serve God, the more condemned I felt."

"Don't you see that your insecurity was the result of your salvation riding on a roulette wheel...every day?"

"How so?"

"If you died on Monday, you go to be with the Lord. If you died on Thursday, off to Hell. On Sunday night, you are heaven-bound again."

"You are saying that this is salvation by works?"

"What else can we call it? And it produces two kinds of people. One group is confident in their own righteousness, but they have watered down the righteous standards of God in order to delude themselves this way. The other group is comprised of sincere people, who, because they are honest, realize that they are under condemnation."

"It seems a little strong to say that they are professing salvation by works, though."

"Paul rebuked Peter to his face at Antioch, and why? Because Peter did something as "trivial" as withdrawing table fellowship from Gentiles temporarily. But Paul knew that the gospel was threatened by this. How much more is it threatened through teaching that a Christian can do a "work" which will blow his salvation away? This teaching makes salvation depend upon the works of men."

"You contrasted this with grace."

"Correct. Salvation by grace is a gift from God. "Salvation" by works is man's attempt to earn his way into the presence of God, or in this case, his attempt to earn his right to stay there."

"But what is to prevent someone from saying they are "saved by grace," and then going to sin up a storm?"

Pastor Spenser laughed. "Nothing at all. Sinners can say and do what they please. Until the judgment."

"But how would you answer the objection?"

"There are two things worth noting about it. One is that having to answer it places me in good company. The apostle Paul had to answer the same obejction in Romans 6, against those who objected to his message of grace. Secondly, the answer is the one Paul gives. Recipients of grace do not get to decide to receive forgiveness grace, while passing on death to sin grace. How can we who died to sin, still live in it?"

"But aren't there some who teach that salvation can be lost simply to keep this type of person from presumption?"

"There are some who insist on teaching that Christians can lose their salvation out of a concern they have for `holiness.' They say that if this is not done, then people will abuse grace. But if you hold the biblical perspective, you do not consider grace a possession of ours, to be abused or not. Rather, grace belongs to God, and He never abuses it."

"This means what?"

"In Ephesians 2:8-9, we learn that we are saved by grace through faith. In the next verse, we learn that we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works prepared beforehand by God. God's grace is never truly abused because it belongs to God. Those outside abuse the name grace, but they cannot touch the thing itself."

"You sound like you have very little respect for those on the other side of this issue."

"That is not quite true. Some of them are teaching another gospel, and the condemnation of the apostle is sufficient for them. But there are others who are true Christians, and who hold this position because of their reading of certain texts...Hebrews 10:26, for example."

"You respect them?"

"Yes. I believe them to be wrong, but their error procedes from a desire to be honest with the text. With the purveyors of a false gospel, the error comes from an almost complete confusion of grace and works."

"What about Hebrews 10:26?"

"We are almost out of time. Why don't I read that passage, adding some comments of my own based on the context of Hebrews. Then you can go back through the book with that context in mind. It should be helpful in chapter 6 as well."

"Fine."

"For if we sin willfully by going back to the sacrifices of bulls and goats after we have received the knowledge of the truth that Christ was the once for all sacrifice for sin, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins because temple sacrifice of bulls and goats is a system that is fading away, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries because they are sacrificing their bulls and goats in a temple that will be destroyed in just a few years."

I laughed. "Is all that in the Greek?"

Pastor Spenser grinned. "No, but it is in the context. Read through the book of Hebrews with the impending destruction of Jerusalem in mind, and consider the problem caused by professing Christians who were being tempted to return to Jerusalem in order to sacrifice there. The fire that was going to consume the enemies of God in this passage is not hellfire."

"So what is the basic issue here?"

"It is grace; grace and works. Works is a barren mother; she will never have any children, much less gracious children. Grace is fruitful; her children are many, and they all work hard."

http://www.credenda.org/issues/2-4.php

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes we will be judged by the 27 books of the New Testement and we will be judged by our WORKS!!

Revelation 20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

This is the Great White Throne judgement. This takes place AFTER Christians have been resurrected. Christians are not at the judgment mentioned here. This is for the unsaved. Another problem is that you are penciling in the idea that the "books" mentioned refer to the books of the New Testament. You are assigning an unwarranted interpretation.

Christians will have their works judged though, in reference to their rewards. Please note:

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

(1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

The day mentioned in verse thirteen refers to the day that Christians stand before the judgement seat of Christ (Romans 14:10 1 Cor. 5: 9,10). I want to ask all who read, to note the glaring difference here between the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20 and the Judgment Seat of Christ mentioned in 1 Cor 3:12-15, Romans 14:10, and 1 Cor. 5: 9,10. In Revelation 20 it is the people being judged. But look at 1 Cor. 3:12-15. Here it is not the Christian being judged, but his works which are judged. That is the difference. The Christian has already been judged. We don't get judged again in Revelation 20. We are judged righteous on THIS side of the grave, and on the other side, it is our works that will be judged, and that which is not burned up, determines the degree of our reward. We will give an account of our works, but we ourselves are not being judged as to whether or not we are saved.

Honestly, this is a glaring example as to why proper hermeneutics are so important.

[Guest PowerinTruth]

I was going to start a long reply here but found it just as easy and prudent to post the article written by CES Ministries named "25 Reasons Why Salvation is Permanent for Christians", as they will probably explain the issue much better than I can in the short time I have to complete this reply.

The following is 25 reasons why salvation is permanent for Christians:

1. The Greek word translated

[Guest shiloh357]

Powerintruth, that is an excellent article!! Thanks for posting it!! I enjoyed every word!!

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh,

Your first question demonstrates that you really don't know how salvation works. We are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace.

Which is a half-truth. Then later you follow up with this statement

However, when It is by grace, and grace alone that I am saved, through faith,

First, it is paraphrased incorrectly. We are saved by Grace through faith. Two elements here where you have only one in the first quote above. Also it cannot be grace alone, if faith is also attached.

Scriptures constantly make this distinction, a distinction you are totally missing. Mankind was saved by Grace. This is Grace alone. That is why Eph 2:5 even has it in parentheses to make sure you do not confuse who Paul is speaking about. Believers are obviously included since they are part of mankind. This second quote, when the phrase through faith is included is only speaking of believers. We are not saved by faith either, which is justification. We are saved through faith.

Now, this is what both Paul and James are saying relative to faith and works righteousness. Through faith is works. We were created for these works, the works were created for us. Read vx 10 of Eph 2. You cannot pull a text out of its context and assign a meaning to it that fits some other supposition.

Then:

This is the Great White Throne judgement. This takes place AFTER Christians have been resurrected. Christians are not at the judgment mentioned here. This is for the unsaved. Another problem is that you are penciling in the idea that the "books" mentioned refer to the books of the New Testament. You are assigning an unwarranted interpretation because you seem to have your judgements confused.

The Bible only speaks of one judgement. It is the judgement at the final day. It does take place after Christians have been resurrected though, but so has everyone else been resurrected moments before.

If this is for the unsaved only, then to whom does the Book of LIfe refer. Some unbeleivers will be given eternal life with Christ as well?

Christians will have their works judged though, in reference to their rewards. Please note:

The day mentioned in verse thirteen refers to the day that Christians stand before the judgement seat of Christ (Romans 14:10 1 Cor. 5: 9,10). I want to ask all who read, to note the glaring difference here between the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20 and the Judgment Seat of Christ mentioned in 1 Cor 3:12-15, Romans 14:10, and 1 Cor. 5: 9,10. In Revelation 20 it the people being judged. But look at 1 Cor. 3:12-15. Here it is not the Christian being judged, but his works which are judged. That is the difference. The Christian has already been judged. We don't get judged again, in Revelation 20. We are judged righteous on THIS side of the grave, and on the other side, it is our works that will be judged, and that which is not burned up, determines the degree of our reward. We will give an account of our works, but we ourselves are not being judged as to whether or not we are saved.

Honestly, this is a glaring example as to why proper hermeneutics are so important.

Yes, the same judgement that occurs at the last day. You make Christ have two judgement seats. I know of no place that even states this, nor implies two separate judgements. Christ will separate the sheep from the Goats at the GWTJ. What are the sheep and the goats here, if not believers and unbelievers?

When you say that I Cor 3:15 is referencing believers you are correct. But these are Christians that endured, that have overcome, that abided in Christ. There were many who did not abide, did not follow Christ their whole life. The foresook their first faith.

Your analogy does not follow for other texts in scripture. The foundation is Christ. That is established in vs 11, and we have many kinds of believers who have progressed along the path of salvation. From infants to mature christians. We have not all been totally perfect even living IN Christ. We do many things in sin as well. It is the foundation that is important and that we continue to build on that foundation. If we stop building, we can no longer be saved. If we stop and start another building, one built upon the sand, are we still going to be saved?

And I am still looking for an answer to the difference between OSAS, eternal security and Perseverance of the Saints.

[Guest shiloh357]

First, it is paraphrased incorrectly. We are saved by Grace through faith. Two elements here where you have only one in the first quote above. Also it cannot be grace alone, if faith is also attached.

Scriptures constantly make this distinction, a distinction you are totally missing. Mankind was saved by Grace. This is Grace alone. That is why Eph 2:5 even has it in parentheses to make sure you do not confuse who Paul is speaking about. Believers are obviously included since they are part of mankind. This second quote, when the phrase through faith is included is only speaking of believers. We are not saved by faith either, which is justification. We are saved through faith.

Now, this is what both Paul and James are saying relative to faith and works righteousness. Through faith is works. We were created for these works, the works were created for us. Read vx 10 of Eph 2. You cannot pull a text out of its context and assign a meaning to it that fits some other supposition.

Not I did not paraphrase anything incorrectly. It is by grace alone we are saved. Faith is not a salvific element. Faith and grace are not two ingredients of salvation. Grace is the only element by which we are saved. Faith is how we receive grace.

Furthermore, it is clear that you don't understand James, otherwise you would compare him to Paul. They are not saying the same thing in their epistles because, James is not talking about how to be saved, but how salvation is lived out. Paul, in referencing works, makes it abundantly clear that works do not play a part in getting, or maintaining salvation. That is why in Eph 2:10, Paul is very careful to point out that we are created for works. He does not indicate in anywhere that works are necessary to maintain salvation, but in v. 10, we see that works are the product of grace; they are not means of procuring it. Our salvation is designed to cause us to live for the Lord. We don't obey to get or maintain salvation. That amounts to making ourselves the Messiah instead of Jesus. According to your "theology," we end up saved because of us, and deeds, and not because salvation is a work of God, and God will not stand for such human arrogance. You really need to study more about the relationship between grace, faith and works

Yes, the same judgement that occurs at the last day. You make Christ have two judgement seats. I know of no place that even states this, nor implies two separate judgements. Christ will separate the sheep from the Goats at the GWTJ. What are the sheep and the goats here, if not believers and unbelievers?

When you say that I Cor 3:15 is referencing believers you are correct. But these are Christians that endured, that have overcome, that abided in Christ. There were many who did not abide, did not follow Christ their whole life. The foresook their first faith.

Your analogy does not follow for other texts in scripture. The foundation is Christ. That is established in vs 11, and we have many kinds of believers who have progressed along the path of salvation. From infants to mature christians. We have not all been totally perfect even living IN Christ. We do many things in sin as well. It is the foundation that is important and that we continue to build on that foundation. If we stop building, we can no longer be saved. If we stop and start another building, one built upon the sand, are we still going to be saved?

Christians have already been judged for their sins on this side of grave. Our sin has already been dealt with. Even the texts covered demonstrate the difference. In 1 Cor 3, it is not the person being judged, but their works. In Revelation 20, it is the people being judged. Secondly, the Great White Throne Judgement is a judgement of the sinners, and it is clear that the martyrs for Christ who did not receive the mark of the beast are not included in this number, for they are were already living and reigning with Christ.

However, if I am wrong, and Christians are present at this judgement, it will be to only confirm their eternal portion, not to be rejudged concerning it. For the Christian the account is settled, on this side of the grave.

[Guest Primed Minister]

John 11:25 "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Martha's response of course was yes. There's no doubt that Martha's salvation was completely secure. There was absolutely no condition involved. She received this straight from the mouth of Jesus. The absolute promise without condition was given to Jesus' disciples except Judas. The promise was made to Peter, and he ended up denying him later on. Peter's pride at first gave him the belief that he would follow Him at all costs. He ended up denying Him which is what I assume some believers feel will cause one to lose their salvation. Peter was literally left with absolutely nothing within himself to boast about. If he had not experienced the denial incident, he may of carried the false belief that he had the ability to keep himself saved.

[Guest shiloh357]

Paul also taught us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. (Philipians 2:12)

The problem is that you are treating "work out" as "work for," and you are completely wrong. Paul is not saying that you need to be performing works for the sake of your salvation. Paul is telling people that they need to "work out" or in other words, put their salvation on display.

"with fear and trembling" does not mean in fear of the possibility of going to hell. It is not fear of damnation being spoken of but of the fear we should have toward God, which is characterized by humility which is really what Paul is emphasizing in the context. We should be putting our salvation on display, but it should be done in humility, and modesty, in cheerful obedience and not in vainglory. Our out-working of salvation should not be an obnoxious, ostentatious, display of self-righteousness, but should be an example of the highest qualities that characterize the Christian faith such as integrity, humility, joy, and patience.

He gives the reason in the next verse:

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

(Philippians 2:13)

Interesting that Paul does not say that we need to work our salvation to avoid Hell. Instead he offers a better reason. God is working in us both to will AND to do His good pleasure. I find that to be amazing! God is working in us to do two things, according to this verse. He is working in us to produce in us a passion for His Will, And He is working in us for that passion to be lived out through our lives. He puts the desire in us, and then He works through us, to perform His Will through us, after we have become His willing instruments!!. Paul is telling encouraging to do the very thing that He says that God Himself is doing in us. In effect, Paul is saying that we should submit to this work.

This torpedoes the silly notion that true Christians who have assurance of salvation, will abuse that assurance to go out and commit sin. The true Christian has God in him/her putting His desires, His character, His agenda, His, purposes in his/her heart, and is then working those things in their lives to bring them to fruition. I have said this in an earlier post, God's commandments are accompanied by God's power. The height of God's commandments, are matched by the depths of His grace. There is nothing that He commands us to do, that He does not also put a passion hearts, and the power in our hands to perform.

[hmh]

I'm going to put my two cents worth into this topic.

1. If you love God more than anything else, you have nothing to worry about once saved, always saved.

2. When you trip up and sincerely are sorry for your mistake and ask God for forgiveness, you have nothing to worry about once saved always saved.

3. If you are born again of God's Spirit and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ died for you and was raised up from the dead for you, and are doing your best in life to live like Jesus Christ lived, you have nothing to worry about once saved always saved.

My two cents.