Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Thaddaeus]

Cardcaptor,

You have had some great examples and explanations previous to this. This is right on point in this discussion. It also ties in with another in which I am not participating entitled, "Can sin be rationalized away".

This girl is doing both and is surely jeapardizing her soul and eternal abode with Christ.

[Massorite]

larryt,

The point that I have been referring to is that the state that unrepentant man is in for eternity is NEVER referred to as Life.

I fully understand your understanding. But that unrepentant sinner cannot have an eternity unless he has life, an existance, immortality. He cannot be dust which is the condemnation of man due to Adam. If you want to hold to this position, then show theologically, how you can have a pile of dust being revived to life in order for that person to stand in judgment and then live for an eternity in hell. That is where your view does not align with itself, let alone scripture.

It is referred to as Death.

Yes, spiritual death. A spiritual separation from God, but not in non-existance. He will have life, existance in hell.

When Adam sinned he died, in the day he sinned he died.

yes, he died both deaths immediately. His sin, is a spiritual separation from God, all sin has that characteristic. But he also suffered the condementation that was promised if he did sin, he also died physically. He became mortal which he was not before he sinned. It is this mortality that is inherited, is passed on. We do not inherit sin, or guilt and anything from Adam, except that consequence of his one sin, death.

He was separated from God.

yes, spritually, and permanently because there was no reason for God to have union with man if man was simply going to die after a few years. Man was not created to die.

Life on the other hand is ALWAYS connected to God, the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus.

Yes, it is, that is precisely why Christ needed to restore man nature back to life. Man needed life. Existance. A pile of dust does not have life, is not connected to God. Unless you can also theologically rationalize that life exists in dust. If so, then why would God need to give life to it when he created Adam?

This idea that sinners are ALIVE in the lake of fire is just not in the Bible.

It is the ONLY thing that makes sense. God created Adam from the dust of the earth, THEN BREATHED LIFE INTO HIM. So dust does not have life as you seem to want to say. Christ came PRIMARILY, to restore mankind to life. That is what all the texts I quoted are saying. Man, a human being must have life, existance in order to endure a judgement and live eternally in a spiritual death. You cannot even speak of spiritual death unless one has life.

They are DEAD in the lake of fire.

Spiritually dead, not physically dead. They might desire to not have been redeemed and preserved from destruction, but God was not going to allow Satan to have dominion over His creation. God was not willing that any person, bearing His Image would be destroyed.

Resurrection does not mean life.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That is the ONLY thing it does mean - PHYSICAL LIFE. Christ arose from the dead, physical resurrection, so that having borne our fallen natures, restored them to life, physical life, eternal, immortal life.

Ok larryt I am going to try this one more time. MATTHEW 18:8 "Wherefore if your hand or your feet offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from you; it is better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather then having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire"

Now the words "EVERLASTING" are talking about someone who's hands and feet would burn with them if they were cast into "EVERLASTING FIRE" which speaks of a period of time that is EVERLASTING IE FOREVER, NEVERENDING, PERPETUAL, and lastly it speaks of a period of time that is eternal.

Rather then answer my questions the last time I asked you something you saw fit to try and insult me. So here is another question for you.

What does "everlasting fire" speak of in that verse?

[spiritman]

Guys, I am feeling so bad right now. I would have made a new thread about this, but I think it relates. Anyways, I do love God and I believe Jesus Christ is the one and only true savior. When I was maybe 14 or 15 years old I asked Jesus to become my savior. Then I walked away from God and I became a bitter person. Then I came back to God....then I became side tracked again. At one point all sort of horrible thoughts were going through my head. Thoughts that were doubting God, thoughts that were making God out to be a not so good God...

Through all this I always repented my sins. I feel bad because even though I asked the Lord to be my saviour, I did not act on it the way I should have. I still prayed everyday. Last night I was watching a video on Youtube about a man who said he spent 23 minutes in hell. After watching it I feel traumatized. I have a horrible fear of burning in hell. I have no appetite, I can't sleep, and I am so confused. I'm trying my best to start over again. Last night something told me that I needed to get up and speak to my family after seeing that clip. I went and told my mother and sister how we need to accept Jesus Christ as our savior and trust in him always. When I think of God's love I tear up. Because it is so great. Yet everytime I think a great thought about God, another thought enters my mind and counters it with an evil thought. I've been pondering my salvation all day, and I feel miserable. I don't know what to do. I plan on going to a revival tonight. For some reason I feel I have lost my salvation at the young age at 17. Then again another part of me says I still have a chance. I have never wanted to worship God with my heart so badly. I want to just praise him in front of everyone. Another weakness of mine was sharing myself and getting around people in public, but now I don't care now. I want to get into Heaven no matter what it takes. I just don't know what to do. How do I know for sure I am saved, and how do I stay that way. I feel like I may have run out of chances. But I'm not sure.

Great falls,

Jesus is our Lord and savior, and always leads by example, when He told His disciples to do something it was not beyond Himself to do the same:

John 14:4-6: 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 13:4-5: 4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

luke 17:3-4: 3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

If Jesus told His disciples to forgive when trespassed against, if the transgresser asked forgiveness, and He leads by example. then He will do the same.

There is also the parable concerning the prodical son you can read this in : Luke 15:11-24:

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Note the words alive again in Red

also you can read a more detailed discription of Luke 17 if you read all of Luke 18.

Just repent ( feel sorry turn away from your sin), go to church read your bible daily, worship the Lord, and pray to Him daily.

and get rid of unchristian influences in your life. Let us know what happens.

I'll be praying for ya

Your brother in Christ

Spiritman

Brother. I am ready to tell you something now. I went into the Church tonight with doubts filled in my head. When they began singing the devil put thoughts in my head such as "This is ridiculous", "Why don't you just walk out now?", "God is not good", and all sorts of awful thoughts. satan had never attacked me so strongly. I was feeling so lost and hopeless. Suddenly I saw a lady at the altar, she was kneeled down, and the pastors of the Church were praying with her to, and her soul was won to God. Let me tell you that all my life I have been such a shy person, but God gave me the courage to walk in front of the Church, and I kneeled down, there was prayer and shouting, I was crying uncontrollably and shaking, but I did not care who saw me. I even got up in front of the Church and testified. Something I would never have been able to do without truly knowing that God was my savior. He gave me strength. I sat in that Church maybe a few hours afterwards, and I felt so secure, and peaceful. I was hugging or shaking hands everyone near me. I had never been so full of joy. I feel like telling the world what God has done for me. I feel like praying for random people walking along the street. As soon as I walked out of that Church, satan was once again attacking harder than ever. Both in my mind and physically. I don't have much of an appetite and I am having some bad physical pain/nausea in my stomach area. I need your prayers. Pray that I will be able to defeat satan with God's power, and that I will have peace in my mind. Pray. Thanks.

Hi Great falls,

The fact that the devil is after you, and trying so hard means that your still a child of God. Satan usually doesn't bother people who are already His. Satan even tried this with Jesus Himself, in the desert when He (Jesus) was tempeted for 40 days and 40 nights. Remember Jesus is the model of how to respond; lets look at this scripture to see what Jesus did.

Matthew 4:1-11: 1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt F7 the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

How did Jesus respond to satan in Matthew 4-1-11; He quoted the scriptures back to satan, what was satans response, Satan kept trying for a while to get Jesus to fall, but Jesus just kept quoting scriputure to Him. The devil just got fed up and left.

James 4:7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

continue to resist if satan tries to fill your head with ungodly thoughts quote the scripture to him, say to him it is written, it might be a little painful at first, but it's like lifting weights work throught the pain and then there is gain. trust me on this I've had battles that have taken months, I just kept quoting scriptures. One thing to remember is that satan will come back and attempt to tempt you again. that's the nature of the spiritual battle. it will continue till we go home to be with the Lord.

you are in my prayers, and keep on being prayed up in church let them anoint you with oil and be prayed for as much as possible.

God Bless

Spiritman

[Guest Greg Davies]

Hello Cardcaptor, you said the following:

That "incorruptible seed" is the promise of heaven as Christians are now also heirs -

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The seed was not corruptible, man's heart was.

We become Abraham's seed by faith and therefore heirs to the promise which is to inherit "the land", etc. It has very little to do with going to heaven, but with heaven coming to earth (Matt. 6:10). Ez 36:16-38 is a wonderful prophecy that has a spiritual application for the New Covenant of faith. In verse 26 and 27 we find the whole package declared by Peter in Acts 2:38.

The new spririt is the incorruptible seed, being born of the H.S. (Titus 3:5 and John 3:6). Now your quote above about man's heart hits the mark . All this talk and scripture about losing salvation, rewards, etc. is true on the heart or soul level.

The Word of God has divided between soul and spirit. We receive a new spirit, born of the Spirit, then a new heart, mind, soul, ect. being born of the water, water baptism (Rom 6:4,5-Col 2:11-13-Ez 36:26). Now we can enter the Kingdom, "the land" which is the promise to Abraham. We receive power and authority to function in the Kingdom by the Gift of the H.S., producing the gifts of the H.S. whereby the Body is edified and brought to the fullness of Christ (I Cor 12-14 and Eph 4:11-13). Christ is coming back for a glorified church to rule and reign on the earth. Hallelujah!

Yes, if we sin willfully, there should be a fearfull looking for fiery indignation. But that fire is not the lake of fire, but the All Consuming Fire, Who will be full of righteous indignation. There will be wailing and nashing of teeth, and the individual, who willfully sinned (where is the will? in the soul) will have eternal regret.

But the new spirit is incorruptible. Hell and the lake of fire are only for those who have rejected Christ and never been born of the Spirit.

Our God is mercifull and just.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Greg Davies

[larryt]

Ok larryt I am going to try this one more time. MATTHEW 18:8 "Wherefore if your hand or your feet offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from you; it is better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather then having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire"

Now the words "EVERLASTING" are talking about someone who's hands and feet would burn with them if they were cast into "EVERLASTING FIRE" which speaks of a period of time that is EVERLASTING IE FOREVER, NEVERENDING, PERPETUAL, and lastly it speaks of a period of time that is eternal.

Rather then answer my questions the last time I asked you something you saw fit to try and insult me. So here is another question for you.

What does "everlasting fire" speak of in that verse?

I am not sure what you are trying to show me.

Everlasting fire is the state of the unregenerate man, even before being cast into the lake of fire.(Lu. 16)

My statement is in regard to ETERNAL/EVERLASTING LIFE. Christ need not have died if all God was to do was to cast man into hell for eternity. Adam had eternal existence from the beginning. When he sinned that did not change.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

They that the Lord gives eternal life to SHALL NEVER PERISH, and who is it that Jesus gives eternal life to but HIS SHEEP not the goats.

Eternal life is always, ALWAYS, in reference to the elect/believers.

LT

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

My statement is in regard to ETERNAL/EVERLASTING LIFE. Christ need not have died if all God was to do was to cast man into hell for eternity. Adam had eternal existence from the beginning. When he sinned that did not change.

Adam was not even created eternal, but had the ability to attain immortality. He could go one of two ways, from his state of innocence or being neutral to immortal or mortal. He was created to be eternal.

Adam sinned and the judgement of that sin was death. Man became mortal. He lost life, he lost any eternal state.

That is the primary reason for Christ's death and resurrection to give life to mankind. Hell or heaven do not even exist if Christ does not become Incarnate, die and raise our human natures to life.

The sentance of man was dust to dust. Gen 3:19.

To be either in heaven or hell one must have life, existance, immortality.

They that the Lord gives eternal life to SHALL NEVER PERISH, and who is it that Jesus gives eternal life to but HIS SHEEP not the goats.

No man will perish. All will live. Christ lost none to death. Hell is not death physical, but only death spiritual. Under the condemnation of Adam man would perish, be destroyed, annihilated, cease to exist as human beings.

the emphasize of eternal life is for believers since that is the ultimate goal of God, union with man, or eternal life with Him. But in order to even have one believer, all of mankind must be given life to make that a possibility since it is the free choice of man to believe, to be in union with God.

Edited August 19, 2007 by Thaddaeus

[larryt]

larryt,

My statement is in regard to ETERNAL/EVERLASTING LIFE. Christ need not have died if all God was to do was to cast man into hell for eternity. Adam had eternal existence from the beginning. When he sinned that did not change.

Adam was not even created eternal, but had the ability to attain immortality. He could go one of two ways, from his state of innocence or being neutral to immortal or mortal. He was created to be eternal.

Adam sinned and the judgement of that sin was death. Man became mortal. He lost life, he lost any eternal state.

That is the primary reason for Christ's death and resurrection to give life to mankind. Hell or heaven do not even exist if Christ does not become Incarnate, die and raise our human natures to life.

The sentance of man was dust to dust. Gen 3:19.

To be either in heaven or hell one must have life, existance, immortality.

The body is dust and will return to dust if the spirit and soul is separated from it. You equate life, existence and immortality, I do not. They are not the same. They are three different concepts.

They that the Lord gives eternal life to SHALL NEVER PERISH, and who is it that Jesus gives eternal life to but HIS SHEEP not the goats.

No man will perish. All will live. Christ lost none to death. Hell is not death physical, but only death spiritual. Under the condemnation of Adam man would perish, be destroyed, annihilated, cease to exist as human beings.

the emphasize of eternal life is for believers since that is the ultimate goal of God, union with man, or eternal life with Him. But in order to even have one believer, all of mankind must be given life to make that a possibility since it is the free choice of man to believe, to be in union with God.

Thad,

Your theology does not line up. Why would the Lord Jesus Christ warn us that some WILL perish?

And why does Paul tell us that the cross is foolishness to them that PERISH?

Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

If you don't repent you perish.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

If you believe you won't perish. How simple and direct can it be?

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Again unbelievers, those that PERISH think the preaching of the cross is foolishness.

2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

If no one perishes who is Paul referring to?

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Again if nobody perishes then who is Paul referring to in this passage?

You really do need to check your theology with the Word of God and not your traditions of men. Those icons in the Greek Orthodox church are lying to you.

LT

[Guest Greg Davies]

some random thoughts:

I wonder of Thaddeus has any hands or feet left?

If the wages of sin is death then death could not enter until Adam sinned. (Rom 5:14-21) So by definition he was created to not die, immortal.

It is unimagineable to me the fear and oppression someone must feel if they believe you can lose your salvation by sinning considering anything that is not of faith is sin. Deep down inside you have to be constantly wondering of you are saved now. What a cruel concept. The enemy of our souls must love this doctrine. How can you have the joy of the Lord and believe that. I know you have convinced yourselves and I grieve for you.

Let me say again what I have said before. All the scriptures you use are true and applicable in the soul realm. That gives us plenty of motivation to live in holiness. The spirit is separate from the soul and that is what is regenerated by the H.S. at salvation (Titus 3:5). It is an incorruptible seed. The life that grows from that seed is conditional on how we walk, but the seed is a gift. We didn't earn it by good works and we can't lose by bad.

Receive this and be set free from the spirit of fear, in the name of Jesus!

[Guest busymomma]

So if we are"once saved, always saved" what about "the fight" that Paul? was writing when he wrote i have fought the fight, and why would the devil keep trying if we were "always saved" I believe that there is always grace just waiting for us and i believe that there are death sins that if we commit them we will need to repent to the Lord for Him to impart that saving grace that will get us to heavens door

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

The body is dust and will return to dust if the spirit and soul is separated from it. You equate life, existence and immortality, I do not. They are not the same. They are three different concepts.

Possibly in your interpretation, but this has never been the interpretation of the Church from the beginning.

Adam may have been created with dust, but he was created to be eternal. That is both body and soul as a human being united with God in communion.

Man fell, death was the result. That death is and means the separation of body and soul which was not meant for man. If NOT FOR CHRIST coming, redeeming mankind, man would have ceased to exist. Death is nothingness.

Christ did not give mankind immortality in this life because He, in His wisdom, allowed man to die physically once, to kill or rid man of the fallen flesh. When we are raised we will not be raised with a fallen nature, but incorruptible and immortal.

That you have separate defintions for the very same thing is what is causing all the confusion and contradiction in your theology and understanding.

Your theology does not line up. Why would the Lord Jesus Christ warn us that some WILL perish?

Context, context, context. Is He speaking of mankind or believers. Same as with life, eternal life.

And why does Paul tell us that the cross is foolishness to them that PERISH?

Same, context, context, context. Paul is speaking post-Christ, post resurrection, it can ONLY be hell that is in question, not annihilation of destruction of the human being.

Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

If you don't repent you perish.

Again, context. He is speaking of believing. ONLY heaven if believing and hell if unbelieving.

all the following are in the same context. Same with the word salvation. It is used in two different contexts in the Bible.

You really do need to check your theology with the Word of God and not your traditions of men. Those icons in the Greek Orthodox church are lying to you.

The theology of the Apostles is correct. It has been correct since the beginning and has not changed in 2000 years. I think that has mostly to do with the work of the Holy Spirit preserving that Truth. It is amazing that the Truth has not changed in 2000 years. But when one uses Sola Scriptura, and individuals (the theology of men, uninspired men) think they have the authority to change the meaning of the Gospel, it is constantly changing. For over 400 years the method has yielded no universal understanding. It is constantly in flux and has become more privatized, individualized and thus humanized ever since.