spiritman Posted February 18, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,131 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 23 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/22/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/25/1962 Share Posted February 18, 2007 1. That a new convert that sins without realizing it is sin, is still saved but he is being sanctified We all begin a process of sanctification. If someone comes to Christ with the wrong motives, then he did not come to Christ at all. If he comes with the right motives, but discipleship is lax, I believe God will pull him to Himself, and sanctify Him. 2.. A more seasoned convert, (one who has been a Christian a while longer), and commits sin, and he/she knows it is a sin, was never saved to start with, and they are beyond Sanctification, and there is no hope for thier salvation. Sin has nothing to do with it. What I am saying is if someone claims to be a Christian, but fails to show fruit, has always failed to show fruit, or has consistently been leading a life of sin, then that person was most likely not saved to begin with. Thank you apothanein, Reading your replies to my questions have given me a better understanding on what your postion is. Thank you for being patent with me. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lnj Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Because only God Knows who's saved and who's not... let's just put our heads down and concentrate on our OWN Walk with the Lord, put our Faith into action by being Obedient to His Word thus allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us and through us. People should be able to tell if you Follow the Great I AM because how you act in public, at home and on your lonesome SHOULD ALWAYS REFLECT HIS WORD, NEVER CHANGING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted February 18, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2007 (edited) Jesus is clear on this..He said if you disown Him in front of man, He will disown you in front of the Father in Heaven. Once again it boils down to freewill of the individual - choice. Shalom Inj, Thank you for your reply. I was seeking the input from those who hold the OSAS position, and especially apothanein kerdos since he made the statement I quoted. Edited February 18, 2007 by Vickilynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliyahuw Posted February 18, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,263 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/17/1961 Share Posted February 18, 2007 What about someone who DOES show fruit and lived a wonderful life reflecting Jesus and then turns their back on their salvation, rejects Jesus and states they have changed their mind about being saved and no longer wish to be. Jesus is clear on this..He said if you disown Him in front of man, He will disown you in front of the Father in Heaven. Once again it boils down to freewill of the individual - choice. But a true christian could never do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted February 18, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2007 Jesus is clear on this..He said if you disown Him in front of man, He will disown you in front of the Father in Heaven. Once again it boils down to freewill of the individual - choice. Shalom Inj, Thank you for your reply. I was seeking the input from those who hold the OSAS position, and especially apothanein kerdos since he made the statement I quoted. Hi Vickilynn. He said if you disown Him in front of man I have no desire to disown Him, do you?,, or just how many Christians do you know of who wish to disown Him? For further input from one who supports O S A S, please see my post of Feb 12 2007, 09:51 on page 93. I would greatly value your comments thereon Thank you. pabrain. Shalom pabrain, No, I do not wish to disown Jesus, but we are not talking about only you and I. And YES, I have known and do know Christians who have lived fruitful Christian lives and then did turn their backs on Him and did disown Him. One of them is my very own older sister. So I know this situation personally. I will check out your post. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted February 18, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2007 What about someone who DOES show fruit and lived a wonderful life reflecting Jesus and then turns their back on their salvation, rejects Jesus and states they have changed their mind about being saved and no longer wish to be. Jesus is clear on this..He said if you disown Him in front of man, He will disown you in front of the Father in Heaven. Once again it boils down to freewill of the individual - choice. But a true christian could never do that. Shalom Eliyahuw, You can't say that as you do not know what a "true" Christian would or would not do. We can only speak for ourselves. And look at Peter. He said he would never deny Jesus and he did. Are we any better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted February 18, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2007 (edited) Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. Please tell me how it is possible to loose that which is hidden with Christ in God.? Shalom pabrain, Nice to meet you! Again, the differentiating word is to lose. We cannot ever lose our salvation as in someone taking it from us, but we can leave it by our own choices of not remaining in faith. Let's look at that chapter in context to get the full meaning of that one verse. Colossians 3 1If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ who is your[a] life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. In this passage, you will note that the commands are for US to do something. We are to "seek". We are to "set our minds." Our life is hidden with Christ in G-d. And as long as we abide in Him and walk in His salvation, we will be saved. Look at the first word in this chapter - it is an "IF." As in, if you are saved, then do these things and at the end, you will appear with Him in glory. 5Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6On account of these the wrath of God is coming.[c] 7In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self[d] with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,[e] free; but Christ is all, and in all. Again, the commands are vital for us. We are to "put to death" these things that we once walked in because if we don't... look at verse 6 - the wrath of G-d is coming. 2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Please explain why these words of Paul cannot possibly apply also, to all Christians?, are you saying that He is not able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Be very careful how you answer this question,, you could be calling God a liar. You know, at the outset, I must say that I object the continual accusation of "calling G-d a liar" if one disagrees with the another's belief. This is a Red Herring and honestly, quite offensive in a discussion. The same could be said of any Biblical belief, including OSAS. Let's agree right now, that neither of us is calling G-d a liar, OK? Moving on... Again, let's look at your one verse in context of the entire passage. And yes, let's apply it to all Christians: 2 Timothy 1 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9who saved us and called us to[a] a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.[c] 13Follow the pattern of the sound[d] words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 14By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you. It is important here to note that Paul says repeatedly NOT to be "ashamed" of the Gospel and that he too is not ashamed. And let's look at verse 12. He says he #1, is not ashamed. #2, that he believes #3, that he is convinced. Someone who rejects Jesus and "falls" away cannot make these statements. This they do not receive the reward. Paul does and he is instructing Christians to do the same. Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you* from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, Are you saying that He is not able to keep me from stumbling, And not able to present me faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, Be very careful how you answer this question,, you could be calling God a liar. Again, let us agree to drop the "calling G-d a liar" accusations if we wish to have and edifying and grace-filled discussion. And, for the record, I am very careful about the Scriptures. As I am sure you are. Let's agree on that point as well. OK? Shalom, Edited February 18, 2007 by Vickilynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliyahuw Posted February 18, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,263 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/17/1961 Share Posted February 18, 2007 What about someone who DOES show fruit and lived a wonderful life reflecting Jesus and then turns their back on their salvation, rejects Jesus and states they have changed their mind about being saved and no longer wish to be. Jesus is clear on this..He said if you disown Him in front of man, He will disown you in front of the Father in Heaven. Once again it boils down to freewill of the individual - choice. But a true christian could never do that. Shalom Eliyahuw, You can't say that as you do not know what a "true" Christian would or would not do. We can only speak for ourselves. And look at Peter. He said he would never deny Jesus and he did. Are we any better? Peter did not disown Jesus. And he was devestated when he realized that he denied him. A non-christian would not have batted an eyelash and went on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted February 18, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2007 Peter did not disown Jesus. And he was devestated when he realized that he denied him. A non-christian would not have batted an eyelash and went on. Shalom Eliyahuw, Again, Peter did deny Jesus when he said he wouldn't. Yes, Peter disowned Jesus by denying Him. It is the same thing. Peter refused Jesus, refused to be associated with him. However, Peter is not the focus, he was only an example. I don't wish to make the discussion about Peter. The point being, we cannot speak for anyone else and what they would or would not do. We are not talking about non-Christians in the OSAS vs NOSAS, we are talking about Christians. You said a "true" Christian would not disown Jesus and I fail to see where that is in Scripture and also I posit that one cannot make such a sweeping and unsupported statement about other's hearts when we are not in a position to do so. Only G-d knows if someone is a true Christian or not and there are warnings about Christians "falling away" in the Scriptures, so we must admit that it is possible for Christians to fall away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted February 18, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 18, 2007 1. That a new convert that sins without realizing it is sin, is still saved but he is being sanctified We all begin a process of sanctification. If someone comes to Christ with the wrong motives, then he did not come to Christ at all. If he comes with the right motives, but discipleship is lax, I believe God will pull him to Himself, and sanctify Him. 2.. A more seasoned convert, (one who has been a Christian a while longer), and commits sin, and he/she knows it is a sin, was never saved to start with, and they are beyond Sanctification, and there is no hope for thier salvation. Sin has nothing to do with it. What I am saying is if someone claims to be a Christian, but fails to show fruit, has always failed to show fruit, or has consistently been leading a life of sin, then that person was most likely not saved to begin with. Thank you apothanein, Reading your replies to my questions have given me a better understanding on what your postion is. Thank you for being patent with me. Bob Not a problem. I always appreciate it when people ask questions rather than barge in without understanding what a person is saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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