Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Vickilynn]

Not a problem. I always appreciate it when people ask questions rather than barge in without understanding what a person is saying.

Shalom,

I've asked you questions in 2 posts, yet I have not gotten a reply.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom again pabrain,

Continuing with your post and questions:

Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you* from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

Are you saying that He is not able to keep me from stumbling, And not able to present me faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, Be very careful how you answer this question,, you could be calling God a liar.

Again, let's look at the Scriptures in context:

This is an awesome chapter and we should really read it from the 1st verse, but for the sake of space (and more questions to answer, we'll just back up a few verses, where these Scriptures actually prove my point that Christians can walk away, fally away and turn their backs on their salvation by choice.

Jude 1

17But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18They[f] said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions." 19It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22And have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment[g] stained by the flesh.

Doxology

24Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Look at verse 17. The words are clearly to "keep yourselves in the love of G-d." This is something we must do.

Verse 18 says it as well - those who doubt can be "snatched from the fire"

The verse you presented is 24.

There is no contention that Jesus is ABLE to keep us from stumbling, but only if we desire to keep from stumbling. Only if we (in verse 17) keep ourselves in the love of G-d by praying in the Spirit and building ourselves up in the most holy faith and waiting for the mercy of the L-rd Jesus.

Psa 34:7 The angel* of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, And delivers them

I find the above Scripture verse to be both encouraging, and comforting, I hope you do also

Of course, it is encouraging and comforting, but it is not doctrinal support for OSAS. We must "fear Him."

Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Tell me is He able to do this, or not, is it dependant on me giving Him my permission?

Messiah is ABLE, but that does not mean we will accept it. There is no permission involved, rather it is your choice to ALLOW Jesus to complete this work. We must be confident and submit to Jesus completing the work in us. If we walk away from Him, turn away from the Holy Spirit, refuse Jesus to work in our lives, He will force Himself on us. He gave us choice to accept Him and to remain in Him.

Look at the verses surrounding verse 6

3I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. 6And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. 7It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.

You see, Jesus will complete His work if we are partners with Him and partakers of His grace. He will not force Himself on us. We must choose to accept His grace and mercy.

What about the following verses.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,

Am I, a mere human able to prevent God's will being done?

G-d's will is always done. His will is for us to have choice to accept or reject. He gave us this choice, that is His will.

Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

Eternal life is everlasting life, and as Jesus says above, they who have it "shall never perish". How then can you possibly say that they will perish, when Jesus says they will not?

These Scriptures say that we "follow Him." If we do, we will not perish. And no one is able to take us away from Jesus, except ourselves.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Note that the word "glorified", is written in the past tense, because from the Divine view point in eternity, it has already happened, do not try to understand it, but take God at his word. A real genuine article born again Christian is eternally secure. God has said so, I believe Him, and that's good enough for me.

I believe G-d as well, and I believe the Scriptures say that we must continue in the faith to have eternal life. I will be happy to post those Scriptures. And they are good enough for me I believe predestined here means that G-d knew who will and who won't accept Him. It does not mean He makes us choose Him, but rather He gives us the choice and He knows who will accept.

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Please tell me how anyone can read the above four verses, and still maintain that, "Salvation can be lost"? The Fathers will is that Jesus should not lose any of those who come to Him. Is Jesus able to do His Fathers will, yes, or no? This is not a case of you not losing your salvation, but of Jesus not losing your salvation. You carn't , and He wont.

Please read the last verse you posted, verse 40. What does it say?

...that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life...

Again, you proved my point. IF we believe in Him. THEN, He will give us eternal life. He does not give eternal life to those who reject Him.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Note. see my comment on "Eternal life", above, also note Eternal life is what you have now if you are a real Christian, and not something you may get later on if you behave yourself properly.

Again, look at the last verse you posted...13. It says ..."and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. We must continue to believe. It is so clear in all the verses you post that we MUST believe and continue to believe to receive eternal life.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Vickilynn

[Eliyahuw]

Peter did not disown Jesus. And he was devestated when he realized that he denied him. A non-christian would not have batted an eyelash and went on.

Shalom Eliyahuw,

Again, Peter did deny Jesus when he said he wouldn't. Yes, Peter disowned Jesus by denying Him. It is the same thing.

Peter refused Jesus, refused to be associated with him. However, Peter is not the focus, he was only an example. I don't wish to make the discussion about Peter. The point being, we cannot speak for anyone else and what they would or would not do.

We are not talking about non-Christians in the OSAS vs NOSAS, we are talking about Christians.

You said a "true" Christian would not disown Jesus and I fail to see where that is in Scripture and also I posit that one cannot make such a sweeping and unsupported statement about other's hearts when we are not in a position to do so. Only G-d knows if someone is a true Christian or not and there are warnings about Christians "falling away" in the Scriptures, so we must admit that it is possible for Christians to fall away.

I am sorry but No denying and disowning are two different things. He couldn't disown christ as he was a true christian and he was devestated by his actions. A non-christian wouldn't have been devestated.

And yes we are talking about non-christians when talking about OSAS. The ones that "folks say that lose salvation" are the ones who never had jesus in the first place.

If a christian falls away, then they will either repent or he will take them home and deliver the body to a physical death. But the spirit cannot die. It is of God.

take a glass of water and some red wine. Pour into the glass. THe wine mixes with the water. Can you separate the wine from the water? No. Its merged with the water.

The holy spirit merges with the soul, in just the same manner and It cannot be separated.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom pabrain,

Continuing on

Jhn 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should* give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

Jhn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

See my comment on "Eternal life", above.

Again, it is imperative that we look at this through the context of the surrounding verses:

John 17

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

G-d knows who will accept Jesus.

We must know and believe in Him to receive eternal life. It is not bestowed upon us without faith on our part.

Next verse says that we "have kept Your word." That is the condition. We must keep His word.

Verse 7 says that we "received" the words and "have come to know the truth" about Jesus and G-d. We must receive.

Verse 12 refers to Judas, who was "lost" so that Scripture could be fulfilled. He is an example of someone saved who was lost.

6"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth.

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Once more, is He able to do it, or not? does it depend on me, or on Him?

Once more, G-d is ABLE to do anything. He gave us choice however and He does not force Himself on us. If we reject Him, He will not give us eternal life. This is a prayer/benediction that says "may." It is a request that we remain blameless and the only way to do that is to remain in Messiah.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword

Rom 8:36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."*

Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Would you agree than the expression "nor any other created thing," would include myself,? if so then it is impossible for me to be able to lose my salvation, and thereby "separate myself from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This says quite clearly that we are never separated from the LOVE of G-d which is in Messiah Jesus. Of course He loves us! Nothing can or will ever change that. However, in the Scriptures it is also clear that those who reject Jesus after they are saved will not inherit eternal life. That does not mean He will no longer love them. It means He is a just G-d and will not reward those who turn their backs on their salvation.

Once more, is He able to do it, or not? does it depend on me, or on Him?

And once again, G-d is ABLE to do anything. However, we must accept His gift of salvation and remain in it to receive eternal life. He offers it to all and all those who abide in it.

[Vickilynn]

I am sorry but No denying and disowning are two different things.

Shalom Eliyahuw,

Deny and disown are the same thing. We can also say "disavow" "repudiate" and several other words.

Same thing. Peter denied (refused to acknowledge, disowned, repudiated) Jesus.

The fact that he was grieved does not speak to his salvation, but rather to his reconciliation and being forgiven.

For the sake of clarity, the dictionary says:

7 results for: deny

View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | All Reference | the Web

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source

de

Edited February 18, 2007 by Vickilynn

[Eliyahuw]

I am sorry but No denying and disowning are two different things.

Shalom Eliyahuw,

Deny and disown are the same thing. We can also say "disavow" "repudiate" and several other words.

Same thing. Peter denied (refused to acknowledge, disowned, repudiated) Jesus.

The fact that he was grieved does not speak to his salvation, but rather to his reconciliation and being forgiven.

For the sake of clarity, the dictionary says:

7 results for: deny

View results from: Dictionary | Thesaurus | Encyclopedia | All Reference | the Web

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source

de

[Eliyahuw]

True children of God are, according to the Scriptures, forever saved and eternally secure because:

They are born again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (l Peter 1:23).

They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).

His sheep have been given eternal life

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

True Children of G-d have a choice to remain in Him or not. If they reject, deny or turn away from their salvation, they will not inherit eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalm 69:28, Deuteronomy 29:20

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my

word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Falling away & being rejected by God, can be the result of (each verse quoted in full below):

1. for lack of knowledge & rejected knowledge Hosea 4:6

2. that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not Matt 7:24-27

3. hearers only, deceiving your own selves James 1:22

4. beareth not fruit & abide not in me John 15:2,6

5. not a doer & forgetteth what manner of man he was James 1:22-24

6. faith without works is dead Jam 2:17-26

7. he that lacketh & hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins 2 Peter 1:9

8. unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures 2 Peter 3:16

9. err from the truth James 5:19-20

10. lust, and enticed James 1:13-16

11. the love of money 1 Timothy 6:10

12. be a friend of the world James 4:4

13. the pollutions of the world & again entangled therein & turned to his own vomit again 2 Peter 2:20-22

14. the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word Matt 13:22

15. have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13

16. tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended Matt 13:21

17. be without chastisement Hebrews 12:6-8

18. servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death Romans 6:16

19. being led away with the error of the wicked 2 Peter 3:17

20. seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils 1 Timothy 4:1

21. an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12-15

22. sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth Hebrews 10:26

23. having put away concerning faith & blaspheme 1 Timothy 1:18-20:

24. counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing Hebrews 10:29

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Matt 7:

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

James 1:22-24

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] thatbeareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

2 Peter 1:1-10

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Peter 3:

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

James 5:

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James 1:13-16

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Matt 13:

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matt 13:

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Hebrews 12

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Hebrews 3:12-15

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1 Timothy 1:18-20:

18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[Eliyahuw]

Shalom,

True Children of G-d have a choice to remain in Him or not. If they reject, deny or turn away from their salvation, they will not inherit eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalm 69:28, Deuteronomy 29:20

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my

word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Falling away & being rejected by God, can be the result of (each verse quoted in full below):

1. for lack of knowledge & rejected knowledge Hosea 4:6

2. that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not Matt 7:24-27

3. hearers only, deceiving your own selves James 1:22

4. beareth not fruit & abide not in me John 15:2,6

5. not a doer & forgetteth what manner of man he was James 1:22-24

6. faith without works is dead Jam 2:17-26

7. he that lacketh & hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins 2 Peter 1:9

8. unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures 2 Peter 3:16

9. err from the truth James 5:19-20

10. lust, and enticed James 1:13-16

11. the love of money 1 Timothy 6:10

12. be a friend of the world James 4:4

13. the pollutions of the world & again entangled therein & turned to his own vomit again 2 Peter 2:20-22

14. the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word Matt 13:22

15. have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Luke 8:13

16. tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended Matt 13:21

17. be without chastisement Hebrews 12:6-8

18. servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death Romans 6:16

19. being led away with the error of the wicked 2 Peter 3:17

20. seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils 1 Timothy 4:1

21. an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12-15

22. sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth Hebrews 10:26

23. having put away concerning faith & blaspheme 1 Timothy 1:18-20:

24. counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing Hebrews 10:29

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Matt 7:

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

James 1:22-24

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] thatbeareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

2 Peter 1:1-10

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Peter 3:

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

James 5:

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James 1:13-16

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Matt 13:

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Matt 13:

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Hebrews 12

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Hebrews 3:12-15

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1 Timothy 1:18-20:

18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Those that you say can turn away are the false professors that are spoken of in these verse

The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20 ~ 15; Matthew 7:21-23).

Anyway, I wouldn't want to worship a God that is that weak that he cannot keep me safe in a salvation he offered me.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Eliyahuw

[Vickilynn]

Those that you say can turn away are the false professors that are spoken of in these verse

The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20 ~ 15; Matthew 7:21-23).

Anyway, I wouldn't want to worship a God that is that weak that he cannot keep me safe in a salvation he offered me.

Shalom Eliyahuw,

No, any person, including Judas, including you or I, can choose to walk away from their salvation. Not false prophets, anyone.

As far as who you wish to worship, that is your choice. However, the good news is, G-d gives us each a choice.

And it really doesn't matter what WE think G-d should do, what matters is what His word says.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Vickilynn