Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Guest shiloh357]

Hello Shiloh

Can you explain this to me? the law that when I want to do good evil is present with me and the law of my members that wars against the law of my mind. Romans 7:21-23

there are four laws in this passage alone.

1. the law that evil is present with me when I want to do good.

2. the law of God being the written law

3. the law of my members that fights and wars against #4

4. the law of my mind.

So many it seem think that being under the Law is just "not" doing what the old testament says because that is what they percieve the Law to be in works. Then if they do this they have freedom. Why is this exactly?

In this text I find the natural laws that are not written down. But they exist within our world we live in.

Then there is the actual written laws in the word and also on the tables of our hearts. How does all of the coincide with one another if our old nature is dead like you have said in one place but said the opposite in another place or it seemed that way to me?

Openly Curious

"Under the Law" is a positional statement, and it refers to the condition of unbelievers, as contrasted with believers who are "under grace." All that Paul is talking about in Romans 7:21-23, is the common experience of all believers. We war against those things that keep us from doing what is right, and those things that constrain us to do what is wrong. In our hearts we sincerely long to obey God, but we often struggle with our flesh which wants to do the opposite. That is why Paul begins the next chapter about no condemnation, because it is easy to come under condemnation when we fail in a sincere attempt to serve the Lord. It is those weak moments when we grieve over our failure that Satan takes advantage of our vulnerability and begins to accuse us make us feel unworthy, stupid and useless to the Lord. That is why confession of sin is so important, it prevents the enemy from taking advantage of our failures, and shortcomings.

I did not say our old nature is dead. The Bible says we are to reckon ourselves dead unto sin and alive unto Christ. We should be crucified with Christ to the world, and the world be crucified to us. We are dead to the world, and world is dead to us. That is how we should reckon it.

[Guest shiloh357]

Everybody wants to argue about whether it was only our past sins that were covered on the cross or not, and such silly arguments really miss the point of what was accomplished on the cross. The work of the cross changes what we are. It was not our past, present or future sins that caused us to go to hell. Those things are the out-working of our old nature. It was our old nature, our old position, under law and living under the dominion of sin that was sending us to hell, and keeping us separated from God. We are born into that condition by default. The cross of Christ deals strikes at the root of the problem.

Hello Shiloh

Okay now I'm really confused Shiloh. You are saying we are not dead to the old nature but here you say it was the old nature that was sending us to hell. If we are not dead to the old nature, aren't we all still heading for hell?

OC

No, because we are born again. We are no longer under dominion of the power of sin. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law, and have been declared righteous. We are no longer members of Adam's race; we have been taken out of Adam and placed into Christ. We still have a fallen human nature, and we war againt our flesh. We were redeemed from the curse of the law, not the curse of the fall. We still have to grapple with our fallible humanity. If our human nature had been eradicated, we would be incapable of sinning.

As Christians we are in, or should be in a process of sanctification. We are daily being renewed, and are casting off old habits, old thoughts, and all of those things that are not in line with God's Word. Or, at least we should be. It is in process of sancification that we war against our flesh, that aspect of our old nature that wants to do the opposite of what God wants us to do.

[Floatingaxe]

Everybody wants to argue about whether it was only our past sins that were covered on the cross or not, and such silly arguments really miss the point of what was accomplished on the cross. The work of the cross changes what we are. It was not our past, present or future sins that caused us to go to hell. Those things are the out-working of our old nature. It was our old nature, our old position, under law and living under the dominion of sin that was sending us to hell, and keeping us separated from God. We are born into that condition by default. The cross of Christ deals strikes at the root of the problem.

Hello Shiloh

Okay now I'm really confused Shiloh. You are saying we are not dead to the old nature but here you say it was the old nature that was sending us to hell. If we are not dead to the old nature, aren't we all still heading for hell?

OC

No, because we are born again. We are no longer under dominion of the power of sin. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law, and have been declared righteous. We are no longer members of Adam's race; we have been taken out of Adam and placed into Christ. We still have a fallen human nature, and we war againt our flesh. We were redeemed from the curse of the law, not the curse of the fall. We still have to grapple with our fallible humanity. If our human nature had been eradicated, we would be incapable of sinning.

As Christians we are in, or should be in a process of sanctification. We are daily being renewed, and are casting off old habits, old thoughts, and all of those things that are not in line with God's Word. Or, at least we should be. It is in process of sancification that we war against our flesh, that aspect of our old nature that wants to do the opposite of what God wants us to do.

Amen, brother!

[Guest Cephas]

The problem I see here is that there has been no discussion on what exactly constitutes salvation.

"Saved" is being treated as a status that can be changed if certain standards are not maintained. You are saved IF you do this, or IF you don't do that. It places the responsibility of one's salvation upon one's self and not upon Christ. When salvation ceases to be seen solely as a work of Christ, and seen as solely depending upon Christ and his finished work on the cross, our view of what Christ purchased for us becomes skewed. He did not die in order to change our spiritual "status."

Salvation is Jesus, and Jesus is Salvation. He is Eternal Life (John 14:6). Salvation is a transformation of the heart, and is a work brought about by God alone. It is not something we deserve because we live good enough lives to maintain it. You were not good enough to get saved, and you are not good enough for God to even consider holding on to you. If you got what you deserved, you would be Hell right now, and God would have been justifed, and fully within His rights to make it so. It is only because of His mercy that you even take the next breath.

God is not as impressed your "holiness" and "spirituality" as you are. You are saved, not because of what you continue to do, but only because of what Christ did on the cross. Salvation is Jesus + zero. Salvation is not a synthesis of God's grace, and your filthy rags which in your misguided mind, amount to "good works". Salvation is not You + Jesus. It is the height of arrogance, and extreme presumptuousness, to believe that you can add to God's grace. His grace is a gift that He has chosen to bestow upon you, and only because Jesus was willing to go to the cross to purchase it.

Either Jesus is the Messiah, or you are. Either He has saved you, or you are trying to save yourself through your works. It cannot be both. God is not going to share His glory with you. Salvation is for God's glory, and for anyone to presume that they are adding to their salvation, or maintaining it, is to rob God of His glory.

It is an all or nothing proposition. Salvation is either 100% Jesus, or there is no salvation. He does not want to "part" of your salvation, He wants to be all of it.

He will be Lord of all, or not Lord at all.

AMEN to that!!!

[Thaddaeus]

Kabowd,

...and that [faith], not of ourselves, it is a GIFT FROM GOD, not of works lest anyone should boast.

Let's not slice and dice the Scriptures please.

If faith is to blame (or lack of it) for losing salvation, then the blame must go back to God, as He is the giver of faith.

so, it was a gift to all men. Every man is given this Gift, the offer is for all men. Because it was given to all men, all men are called to repentance, all men will make a choice on that call.

But if we do not accept that Gift is that the fault of God?

If we accept it and abuse it, is that God's fault?

If we accept it but change our minds, is that God's fault?

[Neopatriarch]

The problem I see here is that there has been no discussion on what exactly constitutes salvation.

"Saved" is being treated as a status that can be changed if certain standards are not maintained. You are saved IF you do this, or IF you don't do that. It places the responsibility of one's salvation upon one's self and not upon Christ. When salvation ceases to be seen solely as a work of Christ, and seen as solely depending upon Christ and his finished work on the cross, our view of what Christ purchased for us becomes skewed. He did not die in order to change our spiritual "status."

Salvation is Jesus, and Jesus is Salvation. He is Eternal Life (John 14:6). Salvation is a transformation of the heart, and is a work brought about by God alone. It is not something we deserve because we live good enough lives to maintain it. You were not good enough to get saved, and you are not good enough for God to even consider holding on to you. If you got what you deserved, you would be Hell right now, and God would have been justifed, and fully within His rights to make it so. It is only because of His mercy that you even take the next breath.

God is not as impressed your "holiness" and "spirituality" as you are. You are saved, not because of what you continue to do, but only because of what Christ did on the cross. Salvation is Jesus + zero. Salvation is not a synthesis of God's grace, and your filthy rags which in your misguided mind, amount to "good works". Salvation is not You + Jesus. It is the height of arrogance, and extreme presumptuousness, to believe that you can add to God's grace. His grace is a gift that He has chosen to bestow upon you, and only because Jesus was willing to go to the cross to purchase it.

Either Jesus is the Messiah, or you are. Either He has saved you, or you are trying to save yourself through your works. It cannot be both. God is not going to share His glory with you. Salvation is for God's glory, and for anyone to presume that they are adding to their salvation, or maintaining it, is to rob God of His glory.

It is an all or nothing proposition. Salvation is either 100% Jesus, or there is no salvation. He does not want to "part" of your salvation, He wants to be all of it.

He will be Lord of all, or not Lord at all.

AMEN to that!!!

I'll second that.

[Thaddaeus]

Shiloh,

It is not faith in and of itself, if I might clarify. It is God's grace available to all, but it is faith that appropriates it. We are saved BY grace, THROUGH faith. Our faith is not the element of salvation,

Depends. Since the topic is OSAS, we can omit the the Work of Christ on the Cross, the Gift itself. Man had nothing to do with this aspect of His salvation. It is totally objective. OSAS is not refering to this aspect but it does refer to the offer of that Gift to mankind. We, as believers appropriate it by faith, which is justification. Or we lay hold of Christ' work which was done for us.

However, we are saved THROUGH FAITH. This is what James is speaking about. It is the manual of christian living.

Salvation is universally available, but only realized by those who put their trust in Christ. It is does not depend upon us, but upon God's grace.

Yes, because Christ saved mankind from the fall. He redeemed mankind from the judgement of Adam. He reconciled man to God. We appropriate it by faith and we are saved through faith.

When we exercise our faith, we are not saving ourselves, we are relying on, trusting in the grace of God which saves us.

The Grace already saved you and every soul that ever lived. But you personally must accept that offer which is given to every human being. All will give an answer to that selection. We will give account at the judgement for what we have done.

It is human pride that cannot allow it to be work of God, alone. It is human pride that wants to take credit for being good enough to have something to do with salvation.

No, quite the contrary, but obedience, rather than stubbornness to the call.

The New Covenant is not between man and the Father. The New Covenant is between the Father and Jesus. They are the guarantors of the covenant. The New Covenant was cut in the blood of Jesus, not in the blood of sinful man.

It was made by the Father, to be performed by Christ, for mankind. God was not willing to permit His creation to succumb to death and destruction. That covenant in His Blood was to make it possible for God to have a relationship with man. To bring the created order back to where it was before the fall. Christ overcame the fall, so man could get on with the business of his purpose in this creation, union with God.

That Covenant, as all covenants has two parties, man and God. Each has their own responsibility to that relationship. It is a mutal, cooperative, synergistic work.

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

(Romans 3:24-25)

this applies to Christ' work or the saving of mankind from the fall. Man had nothing to do with this aspect. OSAS does not address this, but the aspect of recieving this Gift, not the performing of that Gift.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(Titus 3:7)

He saved mankind, justified, redeemed, reconciled, made right with God, all men, so that those that believe might become heirs. If Christ had not redeemed mankind there could not be believers. And also notice it is hope of eternal life. It is not guaranteed as OSAS states.

When we compare this passage with its partner in Matt 24: 45 and following, what we see is a comparison of a faithful servant appointed by the master, and an evil servant, who is not spoken of as having appointed. This is likened unto ministers in the church today, those who have been appointed to God, and those who have taken the office to themselves and do abuse it. There have been several testimonies I have heard of pastors in churches who preached for years before finally being saved. This passages is not about believers in general, but those who are in positions of authority in the Church and who are either faithful in carrying out the Will of the Father, and those who abuse the position even at the expense of the flock. This is not a parable about two Christians, but one who is of God, and another who is not.

That is a master of rationale as I have ever seen. One will do anything to twist what it actually states quite clearly. Obviously, since it does it needs to be reconciled to a preconcieved notion that believers cannot lose faith. There are only two positions. We either are believers or we are not. So if someone is being appointed with the unbelievers, it cannot mean they were unbelievers in the first place. Disregarding your whole post, just what other group do you think exist, besides believer and unbeliever?

Thaddeus this is talking about the qualifications of a Bishop. The only point that Paul is making is that the Bishop should be a veteran of the faith, not a beginner, or a new Christian. He should be someone who has matured in the things of God. He is one who has proven himself in all necessary practical matters and is able and mature enough to teach. The point made in v. 6 is that a New or novice believer is more likely to be filled with pride at such an appointment, and in doing so, create pride that will foster a dangerous situation for the congregation. Falling into the condemnation of the devil is not the same as becoming "unsaved."

Really. another masterful job at a rationalization to skirt the truth of the passage.

Really, condemnation of the devil is not the same as being unsaved. I would presume than that unbelevers who are under the condemnation of the devil are also saved then? You cannot have it both ways.

By the way, Paul is not concerned one bit about the congregation, but about the individual. Do not tempt him to fall.

Your response of I Tim 5:12 again another rationalization and omits the summation in verse 15. So we can remain IN Christ, even though we have also turned aside to Satan. I guess the Bible was wrong that we can serve God and mammon

So you think commandments are given in order to keep us saved??? That is not true. Our obedience is an out-working of our salvation, not the means of procuring it.

No. From what you have already stated you are thinking this refers to man saving himself, or the Work of Christ on the Cross. We are past that. We are speaking of the response by faith and through faith. Through faith is works. Works of righteousness. Obedience is evidence of our being saved, of our having faith IN Christ. No obedience, no faith. That is exactly what these texts are saying. You cannot be saved by being faithless, unfaithful.

He is saying that our obedience is the indicator of our love. It is our love for him that comes from the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that causes us to keep His commands. Jesus is not teaching some kind of "performance based acceptance," He is saying that our love for Him will be manifested in our obedience. We abide in His love, when we obey, which is speaking of fellowship. Disobedience will cause us to fall out of fellowship with the Lord but not out relationship.

That is right. But out of fellowship is out of relationship. There is no difference. If you are out of Christ what other place are you? There are only two, remember.

If we disobey, or sin, we seek forgiveness. Confession and remission will keep us IN Christ, will keep us reconciled with Christ. But the problem as it states in I Tim 5:12. A little slack, a little sin, if not checked will lead to hardening of the heart and thus fall under the condemnation of the devil. If no repentance made, then hell.

Not keep ourselves saved, but to keep our fellowship with Jesus unhindered.

Saved or being saved is the same thing as remaining IN Christ. It is keeping yourself IN Christ, which then translates to keeping your soul saved. I Pet 1:4-5 tells you exactly what is happening. We are kept by the power of God, THROUGH faith, and the inheritance that is incorruptible and will not fade away awaits those that are faithful. If we no longer have faith, just how can we be saved?

The verses in Hebrews are speaking of apostasy, not merely falling away from the faith, and as such really do not belong in the scope of this discussion.

Just what do you think apostacy consist. It is unbelief. This is speaking of unbelief. The opposite is belief.

There is a deep moral decline that occurs before the fullness of apostasy takes place, and so a person who finds themselves in that morass of faithlessness, and absolutely no compunction about it, wouldn't be a Christian anyway by the standards of even the anti-OSAS crowd.

That is the view of ONLY the OSAS crowd. These people were IN Christ at the same time as they were never saved by their definition. There are only two groups of people. If you are moving from one to another, what other group would an unbeleiver fall into, believers?

How can an unbeliever depart from the living God?

I have seen people walk away from the faith and apostasize, and it was never overnight, and it was clear that they wanted to head that direction and resisted every word spoken to them and every attempt by the Holy Spirit to lead them back.

yes, and even outside of scripture the reality is obvious. Yet they hold to such a theory.

Apostasy, is a different issue than really fits the context of a OSAS thread, because what many people are asserting is that your works can determine your eternal destiny, and that is just not so.

It is the same thing. Every single heretic was a Christian at one time, a believer. Many were even bishops. And yes, works does determine your eternal destiny. The only thing it cannot do is redeem you. Well on second thought, every soul has an eternal destiny, but where in eternity is the question.

[Adarian]

1 John 5

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

If you understand that in order to enter the kingdom of God, "Ye must be born again", and if you believe in your heart that Jesus is the Christ, you are born of God. If you are born of God, you are saved, with your name written in the book of life.

So simple. If you believe that Jesus is the Christ your salvation is assured, period, no other modifiers need apply. In the midst of your sin, If you believe that Jesus is the Christ you are still saved. Repent, get clean and back on the path, but your sin cannot cancel your salvation.

What God on the one hand says you are saved, and are forgiven, and are washed in the blood, and having grafted you into the body of Christ, then turns and says, oops, I'm sorry, Christ was not sufficient unto your sin, you're done, and tears you out of the body and throws you into hell? Not the God that I know.

The only way to get thrown into hell is to reject Christ. The only way to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. To believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is the only requirement for salvation, until after you are saved. Repentance comes after salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

Everybody wants to argue about whether it was only our past sins that were covered on the cross or not, and such silly arguments really miss the point of what was accomplished on the cross. The work of the cross changes what we are. It was not our past, present or future sins that caused us to go to hell. Those things are the out-working of our old nature. It was our old nature, our old position, under law and living under the dominion of sin that was sending us to hell, and keeping us separated from God. We are born into that condition by default. The cross of Christ deals strikes at the root of the problem.

Hello Shiloh

Okay now I'm really confused Shiloh. You are saying we are not dead to the old nature but here you say it was the old nature that was sending us to hell. If we are not dead to the old nature, aren't we all still heading for hell?

OC

No, because we are born again. We are no longer under dominion of the power of sin. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law, and have been declared righteous. We are no longer members of Adam's race; we have been taken out of Adam and placed into Christ. We still have a fallen human nature, and we war against our flesh. We were redeemed from the curse of the law, not the curse of the fall. We still have to grapple with our fallible humanity. If our human nature had been eradicated, we would be incapable of sinning.

As Christians we are in, or should be in a process of sanctification. We are daily being renewed, and are casting off old habits, old thoughts, and all of those things that are not in line with God's Word. Or, at least we should be. It is in process of sanctification that we war against our flesh, that aspect of our old nature that wants to do the opposite of what God wants us to do.

Thanks Shiloh for clarifying this for me.

In 2 Peter 1:4 it says,

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Now my question here is just how is this "divine nature" that it speaks about in this verse go in conjunction with the old nature that we have to fight against that is still within us?

Is there basically two natures that we inherently have within us now since we were born again?

Inherently we were born with a sinful nature born into sin and when we were born again we inherently got a new nature so do these both reside within us still or just one?

If so would you consider this to be what the apostle Paul was speaking about in

Romans 7:19-21 which says,

"For the good that I would I do not but the evil which I would not that I do. Now if I do that I would not it is no more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a "Law" that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

Is the "Law" that Paul found that was fighting against the good he wanted to do the law of nature that we were born into from birth?

Openly Curious

Okay, now I need to clarify what Peter is saying in 2 Pet. 1:4. The new nature we receive when we are born again, is not "Divine" intrinsically, because if it were, we would be gods. That, of course is anathema to a true understanding of biblical Christianity. Please note that "Divine nature" does not mean, "Divine essence." There must remain a necessary, and essential distinction between the Creator and His creation. Peter is speaking of the God's moral nature. We, because we have received exceedingly great and precious promises relative to our salvation, now share God's purposes, feelings, worldview, and in a limited degree, His eternal perspective. In other words, His values, moral virtues and character, agenda, and indeed His Will, become ours.

Our flesh wars against these things. Our new, born again nature is at war with our flesh for ascendency in our lives. Not only are we constantly beset with temptation everyday from external sources, but there is a natural inclination on our part to sin even without any outside encouragement. James writes:

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

(James 1:13-15)

Notice that this passages shows us that we can be tempted by our own desires. We can tempt ourselves, as it were, and this requires no help from anyone, or anything else. Having said that, I would also note that it does not help when we allow ourselves to be bombarded with sensual, sinful images through our TV screens, movie screens, and so forth. Sometimes, tempt ourselves by willfully subjecting ourselves to external stimuli, then wonder why we fail. It is how we, by default, behave as human beings. Our flesh does not want to give up control. This is why so many Christians struggle. They are not keeping their minds pure, and staying renewed in the Word of God. That does not mean we lock ourselves away and remain cut off from civilization, but we are going to have learn that in our walk with the Lord, some sacrifices are going to have to be made if we want to be able to have the spiritual capacity, to impact the world for Christ.

It is like anything else. People who have lost a lot of weight, will (hopefully) remember that there are simply some foods they cannot eat, if they want to keep their weight off. It is not the end of the world, but they have to decide if they would rather be thin, or eat pizza. Which has the better payoff? It is the same with our walk in Christ. There are some things we know, that tempt us, and make us weak. We all know what those things are, and they are probably different for each of us. There are certain kinds of music, certain kinds of environments, and associations that we have to sever, if we want a healthy walk with the Lord. A big part of warring against the flesh, is not putting ourselves in positions where we will be vulnerable. Sin is whole lot easier to keep out of your life, if you don't let it in, in the first place.

As for Romans 7:19-21, I will repost a comment I made about that, earlier: All that Paul is talking about in Romans 7:21-23, is the common experience of all believers. We war against those things that keep us from doing what is right, and those things that constrain us to do what is wrong. In our hearts we sincerely long to obey God, but we often struggle with our flesh which wants to do the opposite. That is why Paul begins the next chapter about no condemnation, because it is easy to come under condemnation when we fail in a sincere attempt to serve the Lord. It is those weak moments when we grieve over our failure that Satan takes advantage of our vulnerability and begins to accuse us make us feel unworthy, stupid and useless to the Lord. That is why confession of sin is so important, it prevents the enemy from taking advantage of our failures, and shortcomings.

[Guest shiloh357]

To Thaddeus. Please modify your post so it is easy to read. I do not have time right now to respond as I am off to work, this morning and will respond to you later this evening when I return. It would be whole lot easier if you would make it easier to read so I can tell where my statements end, and yours begin.

The BB code on the boards only allow fro ten quotes per post, so if you dont mind, please divide your last post up into ten posts per page, and it would be quite helpful, and soooo much easier to read, thank you.