Guest shiloh357 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 The problem I see here is that there has been no discussion on what exactly constitutes salvation. "Saved" is being treated as a status that can be changed if certain standards are not maintained. You are saved IF you do this, or IF you don't do that. It places the responsibility of one's salvation upon one's self and not upon Christ. When salvation ceases to be seen solely as a work of Christ, and seen as solely depending upon Christ and his finished work on the cross, our view of what Christ purchased for us becomes skewed. He did not die in order to change our spiritual "status." Salvation is Jesus, and Jesus is Salvation. He is Eternal Life (John 14:6). Salvation is a transformation of the heart, and is a work brought about by God alone. It is not something we deserve because we live good enough lives to maintain it. You were not good enough to get saved, and you are not good enough for God to even consider holding on to you. If you got what you deserved, you would be Hell right now, and God would have been justifed, and fully within His rights to make it so. It is only because of His mercy that you even take the next breath. God is not as impressed your "holiness" and "spirituality" as you are. You are saved, not because of what you continue to do, but only because of what Christ did on the cross. Salvation is Jesus + zero. Salvation is not a synthesis of God's grace, and your filthy rags which in your misguided mind, amount to "good works". Salvation is not You + Jesus. It is the height of arrogance, and extreme presumptuousness, to believe that you can add to God's grace. His grace is a gift that He has chosen to bestow upon you, and only because Jesus was willing to go to the cross to purchase it. Either Jesus is the Messiah, or you are. Either He has saved you, or you are trying to save yourself through your works. It cannot be both. God is not going to share His glory with you. Salvation is for God's glory, and for anyone to presume that they are adding to their salvation, or maintaining it, is to rob God of His glory. It is an all or nothing proposition. Salvation is either 100% Jesus, or there is no salvation. He does not want to "part" of your salvation, He wants to be all of it. He will be Lord of all, or not Lord at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted October 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted October 14, 2006 AMEN!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 14, 2006 The "good soil" is the well-prepared heart, which receives the Word of God and the "seed" grows. The "good soil" becomes the strong believer, yes. So we can do something to deserve salvation more than others by preparing our heart? Either Jesus is the Messiah, or you are. Either He has saved you, or you are trying to save yourself through your works. It cannot be both. God is not going to share His glory with you. Salvation is for God's glory, and for anyone to presume that they are adding to their salvation, or maintaining it, is to rob God of His glory. It is an all or nothing proposition. Salvation is either 100% Jesus, or there is no salvation. He does not want to "part" of your salvation, He wants to be all of it. I agree shilo. But I think the issue is not works but having lasting faith. What does faith mean, and can one have faith at one time and not at another? I think we see in Hebrews, and in other scripture that some do have an intellectual faith or belief, they know the Word, but not a lasting faith in Christ, not a transformation they do not persevere, they don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 14, 2006 The "good soil" is the well-prepared heart, which receives the Word of God and the "seed" grows. The "good soil" becomes the strong believer, yes. I am sure you must know that it is the Holy Spirit who prepares one's heart for Salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 And as I stand before Him I cannot say what God the true judge will do with me after I give account of the good and bad I done while I was in this body after I recieved the grace of God for I am not God. When I am weighed in the balances will I be found wanting? will the bad outweigh the good or the good out weigh the bad? Will God say enter into the joys of the Lord to me or will he find me one to be a cast away? These things I cannot answer on this side of Jordan. These things are for the Lord to decide as He knows all about me good and bad. For He will be my judge as I belong to Him to do with me as He wishes for He may find me to be an unprofitable servant when in this life I thought I was being profitable. For He may find me a hypocrite when I thought I was righteous. For He is my final judge. I cannot say I will remain in His presence after I leave out of this world for I am not the judge of me It is to Him I will stand or I will fall. I am His servant on this side praying to be His friend. This demonstrates a lack of assurance. You don't "know." Guess what? I DO know. I know I am saved. I have a "know-so" salvation. I am not waiting to see what God will do with me. I have passed from death into life. I have eternal life today, and I KNOW based upon the authority of the Word of God, that if I die tonight, I will be with Jesus. John 5:24 and 1 John 5:11-13 tell me that I can know that I am saved today, and that I have eternal life, today. It is not a wait and see thing, for me. I know where I stand, and I stand redeemed, forgiven, under grace, blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus, washed by His blood, justified, sanctified, made perfect in the spirit, born again of incorruptible seed, and sealed until the day of the fullness of redemption has been manifest. You don't have to guess, either, if you have made Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior. You see, I have already stood before the judge, and on the basis of the finished work of Jesus on the cross, and my faith in Christ, his righteousness has been imputed to me. I put my faith in Jesus, and now I stand free, uncondemned, redeemed from the curse of the law, baptized into his death and risen with Him to walk in the newness of life. My Bible tells me that I am seated in the heavenly places in Christ. I am to identify with Him, and not with my old self. My works are not weighed in the balance. My works have nothing to do with it. I am not saved or damned by what I do. The ONLY works that save us are the works that Jesus did on the cross. When we stand before the Lord, there is only one question that will be asked: "What did you do with Jesus Christ?" If your name is not in the Lamb's Book of Life, if you have not made Jesus the Lord of your life, and you die tonight, you will stand before God under the law, and under a curse. Only faith in Jesus, and the finished work of the cross is efficacious for salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddaeus Posted October 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 375 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 15, 2006 to all, First, we need to have some understanding of terms used. It may seem obvious but as I read your posts, none of you are saying the same thing. Most are going all over the place respective of the meaning of the terms. For example, first, What is a believer. How does the Bible define him? Secondly, several of you say that Christ saved us. But what did he save us from? Thirdly, How are we saved? Maybe even a fourth,, What did we fall from? What did we lose due to Adam's sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 And yes you are waiting to see what God will do with you whether you recognize it or not for ye have not got to the other side of the Jordan yet neither has any of us. For the word even declares that we know not what we shall be but when he appears we shall be like him meaning we will be changed from this mortality and put on immortality. No, I am not waiting to see what God will do with me. He has already told me in the Bible what He will do with me. The Word declares that we know not what we shall be, but that simply means that we are simply unable in this life to understand completely the full manifestation of our redemption after our death. Words fail to describe what our glorification will be like when we finally receive our new bodies. It has nothing to do with knowing how we will be judged. We have the second death to look forward most folk when they talk OSAS are talking only of the first death and are relating it to the second death and you can't do that. For they are two seperate deaths. I have a know so salvation in this first death but it is God the Judge of all judges will seal my fate in the second death at the judgment bar I will stand. This is wrong. Salvation is a transformation of the heart, a transforming experience with Jesus Christ, and this includes your justification. Those who are born again will stand at the judgement seat of Christ to receieve their rewards for deeds done in the flesh, but they are not judged as to their salvation. I was already judged righteous when I accpted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I will not be judged on those grounds, ever again. When does God say, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity who thought they did good in this life down here? Was it not over on the other side of Jordan and not here on this earth. They got a rude awaking over there in the second death. The rich man and Lazurus on the other side the rich man got a rude awakening in the second death over their on the other side. Yes, those people believe they are saved by virtue of their good works, and Jesus will say to them, that He never knew them. It is those who are trying to earn God's favor, who are "religious," but have no relationship with Jesus, who are in danger. None of who have accepted Chrst as Lord and Savior, and have a real relationship with Him, are in danger. I can say I have assurance of my salvation but I cannot think I am so righteous that I myself couldn't get a rude awakening in the second death even though the word says it has not hold on me. That is a contradiction. It does not work that way. First of all, there is only one standard of righteousness. It is God's righteousness. Either you have been declared, righteous by the judge, or you haven't. If you have, then the second death has no hold on you. It is not arrogant or self-righteous, to say what the Bible says. Essentially, you are not trusting what God has said. Even though the Bible says the second death has no hold on you, you are not really willing to believe it. In your case, it is not humility, but amounts to calling God a liar, because He says that the second death has no hold on us who in Christ. Righteousness has been inputed to me also by faith in the blood I'm saved by grace and now I'm up under grace. And that being the case I will give account of the life that I live while I am in subjection to the grace of God. I will give account of the good and the bad I did while I live under grace for that is the word. It's possible one can have spot on their garment when they stand before him over their and have a rude awakening in the second death. The only rude awakenings will be for those who thought heaven and hell were myths, those who thought that their works would save them, or those who thought that their false religions were equal paths with Christianity. If I died tonight I know I would be in the presence of the Lord just in the way you have mentioned above and works want get me there it'll be the blood only but I will give account as the word says of the deeds done whether good or bad in 2 Corinthians 5 and I'll stand before that judgment bar one day as a saint of God as it is foretold in Revelation which is the second death. He is the Judge on that day and he alone. If you are talking about the great white throne, that is not for Christians. Christians will not be at that judgement. That judgement is reserved only for sinners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 15, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 15, 2006 I was already judged righteous when I accpted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I will be judged on those grounds, ever again. Amen! Glad you said that, for so many believers are unaware of this very fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted October 15, 2006 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted October 15, 2006 I am perfectly safe in the hands of the Lord... I know that .. Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. I agree. If you are truly saved, you will be saved always. God's grace if wide and full as is His love. The scripture above says is all. Yes I'm safe too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 I was already judged righteous when I accpted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I will not be judged on those grounds, ever again. Amen! Glad you said that, for so many believers are unaware of this very fact. It is something I long for believers to get a hold of. Salvation includes coming before the judge on this side of heaven to receive mercy. If we are judged on this side, we receive mercy. If we wait to be judged on the other side of the grave, we have waived our rights to God's mercy and only Hell awaits us. Better to come before the judge today and settle it now, than to wait and see what happens after it is too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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