Christ's Body -

[refugepsa91]

I'm trying I really am...at trying to see this from a Catholic perspective....but I just can't...I always thought when Jesus said I am the bread of life...He was talking about His teachings...you know kind of a "Food for Thought" analogy.

Just my opinion though.....by the way Douay thank you for answering yod's post.

Love and Blessings,

Angel H.

[Guest yod]

Yes, thank you very much for answer Douay. If we can keep this conversation on the level of just giving our perspectives, you will find that I can be quite civil. Some of my favorite discussion boards are Catholic, btw, but this one question of transubstantiation is just too obvious (as an ex-catholic)

Here's why;

QUOTE 

I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." 

He was saying this is my last day alive. That's why it's called the last supper. I think he was just referring to wine in this passage.

And I am glad that we agree....but why do you dissassociate this sentence from the previous one? We all interpret things from our own bias and perspective, right? The problem is that Jesus didn't say this from a European churched perspective....it was in the context of a Pesach seder.

Unless you have ever celebrated the Passover (and I don't mean a short demonstration) then you would miss the significance of exactly what He was saying.

The ceremony is built on the retelling of the Exodus story. There are certain questions asked from the oldest child and this gives opportunity for the Abba (Father) to tell the story as if it is happening right now...today. As if WE ourselves were the ones delivered from bondage to slavery. (we are!)

The ceremony is done over the course of a meal and each segment is initiated with a cup of wine. There are a total of 4 cups of wine...2 before the meal and 2 afterward.

The Cup we are discussing happened while they were eating which tells me that it was the 3rd cup. Each cup has a name & meaning....the 3rd cup is the cup of REDEMPTION.

Jesus was telling these jewish men (who understood the subtleties of a passover very well) that this cup, the Cup of Redemption, was not about being delivered from Egypt's bondage...but from the bondage of our own sin.

He didn't need that same Redemption! He had no sin!

That is why He didn't drink this cup with them, yet He told them that it represented His blood...which He foreknew would be given in the next 12 hours.

Every covenant that God ever made was initiated and sealed in blood. Check it out.....ALL of them.

But did this happen when they drank the 3rd cup or when He gave His life on the cross? The answer is obvious.

Had He initiated this with the Last Passover there would have been no need for the cross. He was simply explaining to them what was about to happen.

Jesus said that He would not partake in this 3rd cup...and called it the "fruit of the vine". It was wine.

In Isaiah 25 you will find the marriage supper of the Lamb....where it says He will cause us to have a feast with wine on the lees (fermented). THIS is when He will have the cup of our final redemption with us.

QUOTE 

1. Since when did Jesus blood become fruit of the vine? 

I don't understand this question.

Trying to illustrate that you weren't taking the whole passage in context.

QUOTE 

4. How do you explain the overwhelming contradiction against the commandments given to Noah, Moses, and the ORIGINAL church at Jerusalem who ruled AFTER the resurrection of Yeshua that gentiles (and jews) should never ingest blood?

I remember seeing that passage and it said not to eat meat which still had its blood in it. COOK YOUR FOOD, seriously, you don't want salmonella or ecoli or anything like that.

and again this is a contradiction of what the Bible teaches as well as a lack of knowledge about the jewish context.

All blood is to be drained from an animal before cooking it. Even to this day, to be a butcher in Israel one has to be a trained rabbi because of the very strict way that meat is to be prepared without blood. It is not un-kosher to eat meat raw, though.

Side note: I think it was St. Ignatius in the year 100 who wrote about belief in the eucharist and what he thought about those who didn't believe in transubstantiation, he also called the Church catholic(Katholicos - greek).

and we both know that "catholic" means universal here....the "whole" church. He obviously wasn't talking about a denomination. The Catholic Church (capital C) didn't occur for another 200 years.

We should always treat the elements of the Last Pesach with the utmost of respect as if it actually is the body and blood of our Lord. You will get no arguement from anyone here about that!

But that is not the same thing as a forced opinion in the face of obvious facts. We desire to know the truth because that is what sets us free from dead rituals.

Are you aware that the Vatican had people killed for disagreement on this?

An entire Jewish village in Germany was rounded up, put in the synagogue, and burned because of a rumor than one person had spoken against this in the 11th century.

Is that "charity"? Can you understand why there would be strong opinions about this?

[Catsmeow]

Anyone care to comment?

Leviticus 17:11

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

Leviticus 17:14

"For {as for the} life of all flesh, its blood is {identified} with its life. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, 'You are not to eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.'

[Douay]

1 Corinthians 10:16"The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

To hopefully end the discussion about whether or not Catholics know Jesus was raised from the dead and is alive, and why we have to relive his sacrifice for us everyday.

1 Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.

1 Corinthians 11:29 "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord."

Just think about that. Makes sense to me.

Douay

p.s. So you see that this didn't start in the year 1987 or whatever.

[irishcowboy]

thats a thought,

if we cant get along, then why not ban this catagory, these strings, these threads......

not doing much but raising the blood pressure of most that are reading or posting....

is this lifting Jesus up? or tearing Him down???

i know that it is not lifting us up.....

petty things come between brothers,

petty things build walls of defense and offence between all people.....

mike

[Douay]

I don't see anything petty, I see a group of people searching for truth and some who want to constantly delete their progress. Don't you think that holding how you think this discussion could make people feel above the need to search for the truth is petty?

Douay

p.s. I don't see any signs of increased 'blood pressure'.

[Guest Angeledei]

Because I was able to answer the questions that you avoid.

Good grief! Was out last night and all day today. This is my FIRST chance reading up on this post. Sheesh. GIve a person some time LOL

Let me finish reading all the responses before I answer your questions ok?

[IslandRose]

1 Corinthians 10:16"The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

To hopefully end the discussion about whether or not Catholics know Jesus was raised from the dead and is alive, and why we have to relive his sacrifice for us everyday.

1 Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.

1 Corinthians 11:29 "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord."

Just think about that.  Makes sense to me.

Douay

p.s. So you see that this didn't start in the year 1987 or whatever.

Hebrews 10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

why we have to relive his sacrifice for us everyday

This verse isn't refering to the "communion" but I think it does reference the fact that to "crucify" the Lord everyday would be to "put him to an open shame..."

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh , and put him to an open shame.

IR

[jesusislord]

I don't see anything petty, I see a group of people searching for truth and some who want to constantly delete their progress.

[Guest Angeledei]

YOU SAID:

Mark 14

23 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.

24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

25 "Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

Here are some questions for you again;

1. Since when did Jesus blood become fruit of the vine?

2. Are you of the belief that grape juice becomes blood or does His blood become grape juice?

3. Will Jesus drink His own blood when He "drinks it new in the kingdom of God"?

4. How do you explain the overwhelming contradiction against the commandments given to Noah, Moses, and the ORIGINAL church at Jerusalem who ruled AFTER the resurrection of Yeshua that gentiles (and jews) should never ingest blood?

5. Why didn't the Apostles say, "except when performing the ritualistic magic trick of transubstantiation" if that is what they meant?

I will try my best to answer what I can for you. Sorry about the delay; although a board junkie, I do have somewhat of a life outside my computer! LOL

1. Since when did Jesus blood become fruit of the vine?

In the context of Mark chapter 14; ; although his death will interrupt the table fellowship he has had with the disciples, Jesus confidently predicts his vindication by God and a new table fellowship with them at the banquet of the kingdom.

Mark 14:25 - Jesus does not complete the Passover seder meal in the upper room by drinking Fourth Cup (the "Cup of Consummation"). Jesus omits the Fourth Cup. The Gospel writers point this critical omission of the seder meal out to us to emphasize that the new Passover sacrifice of the Lamb was not yet completed. The consummation must follow the sacrifice.

Verse 36 - (see also Luke 22:42; John 18:11) - our Lord acknowledges He has one more cup to drink. This is the Cup of Consummation which he will drink on the cross.

Verse 22 (also Luke 22:19) - to deny the more than 2,000 year-old Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, Protestants must argue that Jesus was really saying "this represents (not is) my body and blood." However, Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke, had over 30 words for "represent," but Jesus did not use any of them. He used the Aramaic word for "estin" which means "is."

2. Are you of the belief that grape juice becomes blood or does His blood become grape juice?

My blood is REAL DRINK - John 6:56 "For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed."