Divorce And The Bible.

[Guest LadyC]

And some people are such legalists that they miss the message of grace.

it was God who said that the ONLY unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. if you really think that divorce = blasphemy of the HS, then maybe you should go explain to God why He needs a better dictionary.

So what you're saying is, because we're saved by Grace, we can do whatever we please?

Sorry, the Bible says otherwise:

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Remember, there is such a thing as legal separation. I simply do not believe a divorced person should remarry until their ex-spouse is dead. And the Bible agrees with me.

jude, i'd appreciate it if you don't twist my words. i never even implied that grace gave us a license to sin. grace means that once we have repented of our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive that sin, and we no longer have to live in shame. we are made a new creature in Christ, pure and unblemished in the sight of God. the slate is wiped clean. but we still don't have license to sin, and if we are dedicating our lives to His service, we're not willfully repeating the same sins over and over. are we perfect? no. we still screw up. and we still ask forgiveness. and each time we ask forgiveness, if we are truly repentant (God sees the intent of the heart, He knows if you're sincere or are just going thru the motions to get away with something), He is faithful to forgive again.

It appears you suggested it is OK to remarry, despite the commandment otherwise, because God will forgive us anyway. In what way did I misunderstand?

I am not arguing with the fact that God does forgive us. I am arguing with the suggestion that believing the Word of God makes me a "legalist."

ok, one last time for those who are too stubborn to believe in God's GRACE, and then i'm out of this thread. please don't waste your time baiting me for a response or making accusations about what i've said, or accusations that i'm cutting and running for being unable to defend my position biblically. (not saying you have ever done the latter, just saying that it's a common thing on this board when someone chooses to walk away from an argument.)

what i'm about to say is grounded in scripture, and i've provided the passage previously in this thread once or twice already.

if you have repented of your sins, including divorce, GOD forgives and remembers it no more. that means you are no longer in bondage to the sin you once committed because God has wiped your slate clean. that is exactly why one of the six whole scriptures that refers to divorce says in one breath those that are single who marry AND those who are divorced remarry AND those who are virgins marry, they have not sinned. all three categories of people are included in that scripture. the single person (who is not a virgin), the person who has been divorced, and the virgin. if you're going to believe what the Bible says, believe it all.

for the record, the word 'abomination' is never used in any of those six passages about divorce. it is hated, yes. no doubt about it. but once forgiven for it, God doesn't remember it. period. THAT is also in God's word. that any sin He forgives, He forgets and you are no longer bound to it. peple who stay bound to the shame of the sins that have been forgiven are listening to the devil, not to the Lord.

those who never believe their divorce was a sin never have a reason in their mind to repent. their remarriage will be a continual state of adultry.

[Smalcald]

if you have repented of your sins, including divorce, GOD forgives and remembers it no more. that means you are no longer in bondage to the sin you once committed because God has wiped your slate clean. that is exactly why one of the six whole scriptures that refers to divorce says in one breath those that are single who marry AND those who are divorced remarry AND those who are virgins marry, they have not sinned. all three categories of people are included in that scripture. the single person (who is not a virgin), the person who has been divorced, and the virgin. if you're going to believe what the Bible says, believe it all.

Hi Ladyc.

I must have missed it, what is that scripture passage that includes all of those three groups? I really could use it as I am talking to a person right now who is need of some help.

[Guest Jude 1:3]

if you're going to believe what the Bible says, believe it all.

I am not familiar with any verse which says a non-virgin single person commits adultery by marrying. If you could point it out, of course I will believe it. The Word of God must be accepted in its entirety. I'm not like the liberal heretics, who pick out the parts they like, and ignore the rest. I accept the Word whether I like it or not.

Most Christians nowadays hate the Bible. I think that's one thing that turned me towards Mormonism: they actually walk the walk! Yes I was deceived, and without excuse; but I cannot deny my distaste for the state of Protestant Christianity was a factor. So few Christians actually believe what the Bible says. It's very difficult to find a church which isn't tainted with the liberal disease.

Edited October 18, 2006 by Jude 1:3

[DInsights]

Let us be careful not to add or subtract from what is already written about sin and divorce.

The precursor to remission of all sins, including divorce, is repentance. It (repentance) is the "preparation" unto (leading to) the remission of sins. Later is by the Holy Ghost because He has power over all flesh; former is by the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ because faith is in the Blood.

Repentance also implies turning away completely from what had been the sin and from its origin. It is best we see it in that light.

Grace and peace from God and from our Lord Jesus Christ unto all!

[Guest Jude 1:3]

Let us be careful not to add or subtract from what is already written about sin and divorce.

The precursor to remission of all sins, including divorce, is repentance. It (repentance) is the "preparation" unto (leading to) the remission of sins. Later is by the Holy Ghost because He has power over all flesh; former is by the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ because faith is in the Blood.

Repentance also implies turning away completely from what had been the sin and from its origin. It is best we see it in that light.

Grace and peace from God and from our Lord Jesus Christ unto all!

Amen.

I know many couples who are Christian, who were divorced yet remarried. They've repented, of course, and God has forgiven them. But, there are consequences to their actions. Repentance wipes away the penalty before God; it does not, however, erase the natural consequences of our poor decisions.

Anyhow, God has forgiven them and blessed their marriage.

[Sherman]

Hello everyone,

I couldn't help but notice the reviving of this thread. The doctrine of MDR is an old tough elephant that requires some serious chewing of little pieces at a time. If one understands the historical, cultural, literary, and authorial context of Jesus' words, then one arrives at a very different understanding and interpretation.

I would love to get into this, and actually started a couple of other threads that have been closed until the moderators decide what to do with them, Divorce, Introductions; and Divorce, Mt.19:1-3. It's a hot topic as you know. I hope they open them up.

Blessings,

[Sherman]

Sherman, I don't think this is a topic I have to digest a little at a time. I already have studied this in light of scripture, and know what the Bible says on the matter. From your signature, I see what your position is, or at least the direction you are going. From your signature you asked, "Did you know that the purpose of the bill of divorce was to stop the common ancient near-Eastern practice of men abandoning their wives, causing them to commit adultery, and the men that marry them to commit adultery? It did this by bringing a proper end to bad marriages and freeing abandoned wives to remain legally and to remain married.

This teaching is found no place in scripture, so it has to be based on someone's historical perspective. If it is to be believed, then one has to find the source credible, as well as the interpretation. A historical source is not equal to scripture. Historians often disagree over things like this. On the other hand, the Bible is infallible. In the law of Moses, it says the following: Deuteronomy 24:1-4

.........

Sherman, I don't know you, and as such, I have no reason to believe you are anything but a sincere person trying to share Biblical truth, but even so, for those readng this thread, I am adding this warning from scripture. 2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shal they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears." Any doctrine that allows people to feel good about themselves in spite of their sins heals their hurts a little (Jer 8:11) , but in the end, it will lead to spiritual death. When one decides to break from traditional teachings of the church, they need to make sure what they are teaching is true. I mean no offense by anything I have written, but am just telling you how I view the matter.

Good afternoon Butero,

I'm glad that you've studied this out, but I'm sorry that you think there is nothing that you can learn on this subject. Yes, my understanding of the reason Moses legislated the bill of divorce is based primarily on the Historical Context, part of which is derived from ancient extra-biblical sourses (Mishnah, Talmud, Babylonian & Assyrian records); but it is also based upon biblical examples of men abandoning their wives causing them to commit adultery and the men that marry them to commit adultery.

I'm also sad that you're judging what I believe concerning this as being heretical (not sound doctrine) without having heard why I believe what I believe, or even me fully explaining what I believe. With you having pre-judged my beliefs it's probably of no value for us to discuss the matter. If you and the others on this site have made up your minds concerning MDR and do not want to seriously consider what I have to share, that's fine, I'll back off completly and move on.

Like I shared with you, I've had many theologians and ministers examine my book before I published it, because I certainly do not want to teach error concerning this very important topic.

The reason that I request taking it one scripture at a time, is because of the way all major doctrines are formed. We take individual scriptures, combine them together to make a coherent system of thouht and principles, and from that we develop rules for life and ministry. If one's understanding of individual scriptures is off, then that scews their whole system of thought and principles, and their rules for life and ministry can be really scewed.

And even beyond our interpretation of individual scriptures are our core beliefs and attitudes. For example, if someone believes that their understanding of scripture/doctrine is perfect, then they are not open to receiving from others and will not truly consider what someone else shares with them, no matter how much evidence that person produces.

Basically, if I understand you correctly, you've studied this subject to the point that you've formed your beliefs. Thus we don't need to take it a bite at a time, and you don't need to consider what I have to share but only warn others about me teaching heretical doctrine.

If that's what you believe, then you're right, we don't need to discuss things, especially MDR. Just arging is not profitable for anyone. But corporate mutually-respectful study will bless everyone involved; I was hoping that's what we could do.

Sincerely,

[Sherman]

Let me ask you something Sherman. As someone who wrote a book on the subject, I would say you are pretty firm in your convictions. Are you coming into this with an open mind, and willing to consider your views were wrong, or are you coming in as a teacher, trying to get those of us who are holding to traditional views to reconsider? It is just hard for me to believe that someone sure enough of himself to write a book about something is going to be open minded. Perhaps you can ease my mind on this matter? In addition, if you do find yourself changing your views, what would you do about a book you have out teaching something you no longer believe? Would you go to those you gave it to and tell them you are wrong? Would you pull it from the market? It is things like this that make me skeptical about such a discussion, but I will give you an opportunity to tell me why I shouldn't be feeling this way?

Yes, Butero I am firmly convinced of my beliefs, but I also know beyond a shado of a doubt that I could be wrong. I've been wrong before on many things and gladly repented when someone (the Lord or another person) showed me of my error. That's why I gave the manuscript to so many different ministers and theologians. I especially sought out those who would be strongly predisposed (as you are) to disagree with me. I sought them out knowing that they would uncover any weaknesses or error in my understanding and interpretation of scripture. These were men I respected, who had a godly lifestyle, and taught the traditional doctrine. As I mentioned, most of these men eventually endorsed the book, and none responded with any serious criticism.

One did respond that he wouldn't discuss it with me because it upset him too much and he was afraid that it would jeaprodize our friendship; though this really grieved me because I respected him so much. If he found error in what I wrote, then I greatly desired for him to show me. I don't know what to think of why it upset him so much. I could easily think of many reasons (negative about him) why it would upset him so much, but I prefer to just let it go. Sadly, we've had little contact since then which grieves my heart.

Anhow, back to your question, yes my primary purpose in broaching this subject on this forum is to teach others the things that I've learned about MDR; but I also purposefully keep in the front of my thinking the understanding that I could be wrong. Like I've said before, I really believe that when we wrestle over the Word, it's better to loose than to win, because one gains more truth and thus more freedom! So I do my best to listen to God speak through anyone, even children in the flesh or in the faith. I especially listen to people who are gifted differently than I. I'm academic/logical in my thinking, but some people are much more spiritual (especially those gifted in discerning of spirits); I especially listen to them, though it's very difficult because they often have difficulty backing up things they are feeling or sensing with chapter and verse. But they are often uncannily accurate.

So yes, I do broach this subject to teach what I've learned, but I'm also open to learning much more, and especially repenting of things that are errant in my beliefs. If someone helped me see that what I was teaching concerning MDR was errant, I'd immediately contact my publisher, do what I could to recall as many books as possible, and write another book with the corrections offering it free to those who would like to return my other book. I would do this gladly and with much thanksgiving to God and the person that helped me see the light. My greatest desire is to know and share Jesus, the Truth.

You might have read another post where I shared a little of my testimony of being deliverd from seriously evil false religious bondage in core beliefs, attitudes, and subsequent scripture interpretations. So I know experientially just how wrong my beliefs can be. I was delivered from these errant false beliefs in the context of a regular study with someone that I was trying to convert! This person happened to not know scripture as well as I and couldn't come close to debating with me, but she knew the Lord, prayed for me, and put up with my prideful attitudes long enough for God to break through the bondage of errant beliefs that I was caught in and set me free into the wonderful freedom we have in Christ!

Well, I hope this has answered your questions about me. I bet you and I could be great friends. I truly appreciate your honesty and care for others, it's very apparent, you have a pastor's heart.

May God continue to bless you and your ministry.

Sincerely,

[Sherman]

Sherman, I went back and read your earlier introduction, and noticed you had submitted your manuscript to several ministers, and you said most agreed with it but one was so critical of it, he is hardly on speaking terms with you today. You also mentioned showing it to ministers from differen't denominations. I was just wondering, the minister that didn't like it, which denomination did he belong to?

I noticed that the only thing you mentioned in that post was regarding doctrines relating to divorce. You said you have been delivered from "evil false religious bondage in core beliefs?" Was that only in regard to divorce, or were there other issues as well?

Butero, my friend is currently between denominations, I think. He attended with me an interdenominational charismatic fellowship for several years while attending Regent University to work on his M.Div. He then went on the mission field, China for several years, joined a Baptist fellowship of missionaries, but ended up leaving them when they put out a doctrinal statement denying the baptism in the Holy Spirit and asking anyone in their fellowship who taught that to stop. So he left them, and as far as I know is not currently associated with any specific one.

If you're asking concerning the other theologian that did not like what I wrote, but couldn't find anything to correct, he attends a Baptist church, though other Baptist ministers did and do endorse my book.

Concerning the evil demonic beliefs I was delivered from: Well, I was raised in a church that taught Baptismal Regeneration -- believers had to be baptized in water for the forgiveness of sins in their churches in order for you to be considered a brother in Christ. We didn't know for sure if we were going to heaven, but we knew for sure that everyone not part of our fellowship was going to hell. We were prideful to the max, arrogant and self-righteous. We thought our motives and doctrine were pure and true. Shoot, we had the corner market on truth! Anyone who understood the scriptures differently than we were either caught in the deception of Satan or most likely had selfish motives and purposefully refused to accept the truth, repent, and obey the Lord. On the outside, we appeared to be gentle, humble, accepting, and loving. On the inside though I was full of all manner of wickedness.

I am so very thankful that the Lord broke through the deception that I was raised in and freed me to have relationship with Him and His Body based on His grace and forgiveness and not based in any way upon my obedience. I trust Him for my salvation. I don't even trust my understanding of salvation. I trust Him.

Arrogance and self-righteousness are the most deceptive of all sinful attitudes and the most difficult to be delivered from. To this day I guard agaist myself falling into that like an alcoholic avoids liquour. Like I said, I keep before my eyes several facts, one of which is that I'm blind in areas and have very limited understanding when it comes to the Word of God. The problem is that I can't see where I'm blind because I'm blind. And thus I keep my eyes open to see through the reflection in the eyes of others of things that I can not see with my own eyes - no joke.

And frankly, the doctrine of MDR is lightweight imo compared to the demonic stuff that I was caught in. I was so very sure that I understood and could interpret scripture correctly. Of course, much of our understanding of the Word was based upon the exact wording of the KJV as the authorized text. In no way would we accept doctrine based upon the wording in a modern translation. Concerning Greek and Hebrew, well we thought people who tried to prove things by going back to the Greek and Hebrew were just upity. You know, the word does say that much learning leads to pride.

Well, thanks for letting me share. To others on this thread, I'm sorry for diverting the discussion and taking up so much time about me. I'll let y'all return back to your discussion. Butero, if you have any other related questions, I suppose we can email eachother personally. In fact, if you wanted to, I suppose we could have a personal discussion on MDR by email. I'd be glad to do that.

I pray that we all come to a greater understanding of the good things we have in Christ.

Sincerely,

[Masked Chris]

"But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." Mathew;5:32

Since Lord Jesus Christ plainly stated like this about divorce why some people think divorce is ok? The words of the Lord reveals that divorce is extremely sinful adding sin to sin.This is why Jesus probably said like this,"If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels." Mark;8:38 The Lord rightly called this 'a sinful and adulterous generation'.

I don't know if it's that simple really. Yes if you divorce you are breaking marrege vows "for better or worse". Yet... elsewhere Jesus permits divorce if the spouse has already broken the marrege vows. Lets take a look at the vows:

1] to love and to cherish [if you are ignoring your spouse you are being unfaithful to him/her]

2] for better or worse [love is a choice and if you hate your spouse when he/she is having a bad day than you are being unfaithful]

3] till death do you part [this is how long these vows must be kept]

you have to work at a marrege and you have to constently "feed" your spouse your love and make sure he/she is loved by you. Marrege is a wonderful thing when the vows are kept. Yet if one member breaks the vows [even in the slightest] and the other member is told he/she must keep the vows than marrege has offically turned into a prison. It's at this time a divorce is the wisest option. God never intended marrege to be a trap.