Sherman

Hi Suzanne, Thanks for sharing. Obedience is far better than sacrifice. However, sometimes obedience is sacrifice. The important thing is to know God and be known by Him. Blessings, Sherman

I agree, but we decide which pointing is correct, based on the context the way we understand it. Thus, if you have two viable interpretations, the one that makes the most sense to you is the one that you have to go with. And of course, we all bring biases to making that decision and it's important for us to recognize these biases the best we can. One of the hardest for us to recognize are traditional biases that we've been taught since childhood. Anyhow, I agree with what you said; but to me the "hateful divorce" interpretation makes the most sense based on the historical, cultural, and literary context. Hey Eric, I agree completely that because God loves us, he hates sin, especially sin that leads to divorce. Even divorces that are morally acceptable are tragic. I don't agree that adultery is the only morally acceptable reason for divorce. I believe that desertion, abuse, adultery, entering the marriage under false pretences, etc. are all morally acceptable. Even so, those divorces are tragic too though. Eric, you must really be misunderstanding me. Actually, I'm not saying that any divorces are "OK". Rather, divorce is like amputation. Even in the most needed situations, amputation is trajic; and you certainly don't want to go around hacking people's legs off indescriminately! In the same way, even in the most needed situations, divorce is trajic and should be avoided if at all possible. And I don't believe we need to "soften what God has said about divorce." Rather, I do believe that we need to understand what God has said about divorce.

First, concerning the title and the phrase "illigitimate relationship", I would prefer to speak of the "immoral acts" of the couple. Of course, adultery in case 1 is terrible, resulting in the destruction of one or two marriages. This has long-term negative ramifications for everyone connected to that relationship, especially for the children of those marriages. Divorce is often worse than death, having far reaching, long-term negative things. It can be like being chained to and dragging around a dead decaying body. In the second case, the commonly accepted immoral act of sex befor marriage is not as serious as adultery, and yet it too results in struggles for the couple. In case 2 it resulted in pregnancy which was a difficult/challenging primary reason for marriage. This can be a shaky foundation for marriage, especially in our culture that devalues family and children. Concerning whether God will bless marriages that had "immoral" starts, I believe that He does, especially as the couple repents of past sins and seeks Him. Thankfully, "it rains on the just and the unjust." Of course, rain in an arid climate is considered a blessing; so, because of the grace and mercy of the Lord He rains blessings not only upon the just, but also upon the unjust. It's the goodness of God that brings people to repentance, the revelation of His great love and forgiveness! May we always rejoice in the grace (undeserved favor) of the Lord. And I am so very thankful that He blesses us based on His goodness and inspite of our badness! Have a blessed day! Sherman

You can twist the Scripture to say what you want it to say, but that never changes what God meant by that verse. He means worship in the Church. But we all have our beliefs. As most of us know, we probably won't change each others views on the Word of God. So we post our beliefs. Therefore, I step aside, and will not post anything else on the topic, because I feel that it has became just a big argument. God Bless. bigblue, Interesting reply, though I don't understand your objection, nor what you think I twisted? I was just pointing out that the "let all things be done decently and in order" comes from a passage of scripture discussing spiritual gifts, 1 Cor. 14.40. Considering the context, the "all things" refers to the various manifestations of the Spirit. And I was just pointing out, that if no one in the church is manifesting spiritual gifts, then this scripture is not applicable. Paul did not mean to squelch spiritual gifts, but to make sure they were being manifested in decency and in order. But if spiritual gifts are not being manifested then this scripture is not applicable. I'll admit that the question, "Furthermore, the "Let everything be done" refers to the spiritual gifts, so is it viable to say that if the spiritual gifts are not being done, then the service or fellowship is not decent and in order?" was a little pushy. Of course a worship service is ok though there are no spiritual gifts manifested. But, I like gifts from my father; I always have. And when God pours out His Spirit in a special way, it can take a dry prayer/worship service and set it on fire! Hallelujah! Anyhow, I hope you have a happy Jesus-filled New Year. Blessings, Sherman

BTW, concerning the scripture that says, "Let everything be done decently and in order." Most of the time, people emphasize "decently and in order." To me that's secondary. I believe the "Let everything be done" is primary because if everything is not being done, it can not be decent and in order! Furthermore, the "Let everything be done" refers to the spiritual gifts, so is it viable to say that if the spiritual gifts are not being done, then the service or fellowship is not decent and in order?

I tend to trust the Lord to guide us, lead us personally, especially when it comes to manifestations of the Spirit. "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" Lk.11.11-13 If we know the Lord, why should we fear? He is faithful to guide us and protect us. If our eternal salvation is dependent upon him and not upon us, how much more should we trust the Lord with manifestations of the Spirit. Let's walk in faith, not fear and mistrust. God does not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind!

The problem with such an assertion is, one can claim manifestations, doctrine, practice or authority in the church outside th realm of Biblical foundation, and there is nothing to constrain him. I believe that God gave us the Bible purposefully as a guide to measure all things against, ot protect us from false doctrines, teachings, and practices. I agree that God gave us the Bible as a guide, but I also believe He's given us His Spirit as a guide too. Of course, being guided by the Spirit is much more personal and subjective, dynamic, and alive like the wind; whereas, scripture is more wooden like the rudder of a ship. But we need both the wind and the rudder to move. We need both Scripture and the Spirit. If we have no rudder, we're blown about by every wind; however, if we don't set our sails to catch the wind, then we are only buffeted by the waves. We need both the Word and the Spirit! Furthermore, in the body of Christ we have both Teachers and Prophets, but both have their place and we need both. Prophets tend to be given over more to spiritual experiences, whereas Teachers tend to be deep thinkers and value imperical evidence. But we need to honor eachother, recognize and value eachother's gifts and talents. Blessings and Happy New Year, your brother in Christ, Sherman

Hey sherman, I guess it gets down to your opinion on how exactly you believe in the Word of God. I personally do not believe in anything outside of it but if you believe in outside experiences thats your own opinion I guess. I personally believe the Word has revealed to us all we need to know. And I don't understand what the reason for new things happening now would be and why they wouldn't happen back then either. I think that with this specific topic the Word is the only evidence that stands on firm ground. I came to my faith through the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the incredible amount of evidence for Jesus. We must "test the spirits" and as 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." I guess it comes down to what way you believe in the scripture. Anyway, its gettin a bit late. To all a good night and to all God bless! Your brother in Christ, matthew Hey matthew, sorry for not getting back to you sooner on this; I've been busy. We do approach the Word significantly different. You seem to veiw scripture as a window, the only window, through which we view God. I believe that scripture is a primary widow through which we view and understand God, but God is greater than scripture and God can reveal himself through other means also, through His Spirit, through the Body of Christ, through creation, through even unbelievers if we'll listen. God is greater than scripture; and God is especially far beyond my understanding of scripture. Of course, I agree we should "test the spirits" and that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." But I do not believe that "the Word has revealed to us all we need to know." For example: If I was single, should I marry or remain single. Should I be a teacher or a firefighter? Should I send my child to public school, private school, or home school. Should I go to this church or that church? Should I...... The point is, we need God's guidance and wisdom for our personal lives, that should be built upon scripture, but not limited to scripture. Concerning the point at hand, I agree being slain in the Spirit is only vaguely alluded to in scripture, and is by no means noted as a common experience; but to me that doesn't lessen the validity of the experience. For that, I'd have to rely primarily upon the testimonies of the people that experience such and for those close to me, I would watch to see what kind of fruit such experiences bear in their lives. After such experiences, are they more filled with the love, joy and peace of God? Do such experiences seem to influence them for good? Concerning whether or not it's just emotionalism, is that person someone who is given over to emotionalism and highly excitable? If so, did the experience seem to help them emotionally; did it have no value; or worse, did it seem to have some negative effect? If the person is more cerebral, a thinker, and not very emotional, and they are slain in the Spirit, what happened to them? Concerning my own "feelings" about the event, I'm not very emotional and I realize that I'm not very sensitive, but am more cerebral, so I don't feel much either way. And if something does "disturb" me, I don't assume that it's because the outside stimulus is the problem, because sometimes I've found that the reason I "feel disturbed" about something is because of a problem in me, in my thinking, that the Lord later corrects either by His Word, by His Spirit, or through His Body (other believers). Anyhow, I appreciate your thoughtful, honest, and respectful posts. And Happy New Year! your brother in Christ, Sherman

I think that we're operating on an assumption here that I do not believe is completely valid. That assumption is that if it's not in the Word, then it's not a valid manifestation of the Spirit. And if it is in the Word, then it should happen with the same frequency as happened in the Word and the way it happened in the Word. I don't believe either of these are valid assumptions. We're talking manifestations of the Spirit, as He wills. If He wills to do something in our generation that is different than what has happened before, then that's His choice and I hope to be part of it. And if He takes an uncommon (in the biblical record) manifestation of the Spirit and makes it common, that's fine too. Scripture certainly doesn't say that one should not fall down when they sense the presence of the Lord. Concerning examples, if one refuses to accept positive examples as evidence, then one cannot validly use negative examples to prove anything either. To do so shows a predisposition to reject it as valid and not seriously consider it judiciously.

A dear friend and pastor once shared that he was in college and felt compelled to join a fraternity that was certainly not a Christian one. He knew that the current of relationships would tend to try to push him towards drinking, partying, and sleeping around, so he was reluctant to join. He said as he prayed about it, he believed the Lord instructed him to be like a boulder in river. As long as the boulder diverted the river, he should stay in the river. But if he ever started rolling with the river, he should get out of the river.

Very good thoughts smalcald! We do have friends and family, those we have special emotional and psychological connections with, and I suppose we could call those closest to us, others who seem to be very close to us emotionally whom we honor and respect greatly - soul mates. But the concept that there is only one special person that we are suppose to marry is just not scriptural. The Bible doesn't command us to marry the one we love, but love the one we've married!

Shiloh, good stuff. I appreciate your understanding of this scripture. Understanding passages like this from a 1st century Jewish perspective is very helpful. Blessings, Sherman

Shiloh, I appreciate the study thus far. One point of clarification though, many think that the word

Well Dave, I suppose we understand things very differently. I believe the Law was and is good and holy, a gift from God that reflected the heart and Spirit of God. It brought order into chaos. It was based in compassion and wisdom. And one of it's primary functions was to mitigate (lessen, reign in) the oppression of the weak and defenseless (women, children, slaves, and foreigners)! Moses was inspired by God to teach God's people how to live, order their lives, order their families, and order society. In fact, it's even the foundation for much of our civil order today in the USA. Of course, the Law was never meant to save, to bring one into relationship with God; rather, it was meant to teach the community of faith how to live rightly, how to respect life, and how to respect one another. The Law covered personal moral, domestic, civil, and religious issues and was meant as a blessing. If Israel truly lived out the Law, they would be a light to all nations. Israel could have been and ultimately was and is through Christ a light to all nations, a blessing to the whole world! I encourage everyone to read Ps. 119 - the longest chapter in the Bible - extolling the virtues, benefits, blessings, and goodness of the Law! The Law was never meant to be an overbearing taskmaster; it was meant to be a blessing. The Law is only an overbearing taskmaster to those whose hearts are not right towards God. Sadly, the Pharisees used the Law to control and oppress others, and they deceptively explained away the directives of the Law so that they could appear holy and pious, and yet remain hateful, mean-spirited, and selfish to the core! Sadly, because of the first great division in the Church between Jew and Gentile, the church of the 2nd century forward was virtually severed from our roots in Judaism, and the early church became very anti-semtic, to the point where the church throughout the centuries since has even persecuted the Jews - very sad. Didn't Paul say something about the Law being good and holy, but sin working in us perverts or twists this. So the problem is not the Law, but the sin in us. Blessings, Sherman