Divorce And The Bible.

[Sherman]

Statistics:

Mark Twain said there are three types of lies

1. Lies,

2. Damnable Lies, and

3. Statistics

Point is that statistics are often used to prove things that they don't prove. For example, Catholics have lower divorce rates than other denominations. But that statistic doesn't take into account all of the Catholic marriages that are annulled. Catholosism developed the annulment process in order to break marriages that are unbreakable (indissoluble), and allow people who were married to marry again in the RCC after their previous marriage was declared no marriage at all (annulment). Those who have their marriages annulled are not considered divorced, but are considered never married.

With statistics it's important to compare apples to apples, not apples and oranges. Which factors contribute most to the rise in divorce in this country and in the church is an important thing to study; age, religion, denomination, lifestyle, etc.

One thing that's often not considered is women being empowered to be able to make it own their own without the support of a man. In years gone by, women stayed in some very bad abusive marriages because any alternative they could imagine was far worse for them and their children. That's not the case today and thus shifting more responsibility on men to be good husbands and not abusive, thankfully! But I believe it does give rise to divorce stats. - This is just an observation, I'm not trying to prove or support anything specific.

Blessings,

[Smalcald]

Well I think that kind of an attitude is why we don't do a good job in helping young people prepare for marriage. The point is there are things we know about helping new marriages, and this is where we should be focused, it is a much better use of our resources and time, than trying to patch up bad relationships.

Certainly we can misuse statistics and they are not determinative, meaning that ALL young marriages break up, they don't obviously yours did not.

However out of 100 teen marriages you are looking at close to 80 of them ending in divorce. Why not tell that to young people? Many young people today are confused about living together; they think it can actually help a future marriage, when in reality the opposite is true. Also compatibility is very very important in true romantic love.

The fact is I know many bitter unhappy people who would make horrible husbands or wives who would answer your pastor that they have a deep love for the Lord. Like I said words are cheap, but over time you can find out what a person is really like, and that usually would take a couple of years, why not wait?

I don't know about the annulments? I think they are indeed written as civil divorces. A Catholic annulment is something given by the Church not by the government. A civil annulment is something separate and pretty rare.

But that does not account for example the Lutheran's who don't do annulments. Lutherans however tend not to be teenage brides and have lower rates of out of wedlock pregnancies. I belong to a Lutheran congregation and I know that we don't have any special relationship with the Lord that is not present in Evangelical Churches, so I don't know exactly what is going on, it is probably cultural not spiritual.

But as long as we (Christians) allow remarriage for any reason and allow divorce for any reason among the Ministers, we are really not taking this very seriously for all of our talk and chest beating about divorce.

[Guest Biblicist]

It is about as easy to prepare for marriage as it is to prepare for your first child. It can not be done! No amount of preparation can help you understand the nature of marriage, or parenting for that matter.

What churches need to do is start offering counseling for married couples as well. Biblical counseling. And the elders [not meaning old people just ones who have been married a long time] in the church, men and women, need to be involved in mentoring the young married couples. Just as we are admonished to do in God's word. To many churches take the hands off approach when it comes to newly married couples, as if to say, now that they are married we are finished with our jobs. That is not Biblical at all!

Sherman, I think you are right, in a sense. Women's liberation did help with the raise of divorce. Women who were abused found the strength to get out of it, but women who were merely unhappy misused it to get their way. God creates what is good, Satan distorts it for his use.

I would love to know how many churches today offer post-marital counseling for struggling couples. Our pastor offers it, it's in the bulletin every Sunday. The old church we were at, didn't feel it was necessary, and a friend of mine lost his wife because his "pastor" refused to council them!

I have a question. . . When does marriage start? There was no judge, pastor or priest in the Garden of Eden. God performed the ceremony,so to speak. Is it in the Bible that the marriage begins with a wedding day and a license? Or is it the consummation of that marriage that begins the union between husband and wife. I am NOT saying that marriage is not needed, quite the contrary, I believe very strongly in the commitment of legally binding marriage.

[Smalcald]

I think one of the problems is our frame of mind concerning marriage.

I really believe that licensing causes a lot of folks to see their marriage as an external thing...a piece of paper or written contract, instead of a covenant made from the heart to another person and before God.

I think its a lot easier to convince ourselves that we can walk out on a marraige or cheat or whatever else, when we see it finally as a written contract instead of a live covenant before God almighty.

If either of my exwives had actually understood that they werent just agreeing to be my wife, but they were creating life covenant before the Father, my guess is that they would have been a lot less likely to run around sleeping with other men.

Just an opinion tho

I think you are on to something.

I dated a women once who I found out later cheated continually but she really wanted to get married and as you say she saw marriage as an external contract, not something lived. I thank the Lord that she dumped me!

[Smalcald]

Hi Biblicist,

Well obviously marriage does not start at consummation, or Christ would not have spoken of fornication. But in the time of Christ there were very specific Jewish wedding ceremonies, in fact Christ attended a couple.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, marriage can be prepared for but not by practicing and you are right you don't know what it really is until you are in it, I agree with you there.

But by understanding what makes a good husband or wife and being aware of those things when you are dating. Which is why simply NOT rushing into marriage is by itself a very effective way to prepare for marriage. Also it is critical that parents talk to their kids about what makes a good husband or wife and what makes a good marriage. Simply by not living together or not having sex outside of marriage we can improve our chances at a good marriage (no guarantees I totally agree).

[Smalcald]

I think you are on to something.

I dated a women once who I found out later cheated continually but she really wanted to get married and as you say she saw marriage as an external contract, not something lived. I thank the Lord that she dumped me!

One of those times when you are glad to be 'just friends'

You know some of the best things that have happened to me made me sad at the time!

[Guest Biblicist]

Smalclad,

My friend, I do not disagree with you on preparing for marriage. It is important to know what you are getting into. It should begin in the home with parents and in the church with the Pastor and elder married couples. Kids need good examples, and their parents need to have an open dialog with them about it. The best way to prepare for marriage, is prayer, starting with mom and dad praying for their children and the children's perspective spouses.

What I think we disagree on is the churches involvement in marriage. Just helping couples prepare before marriage is not enough. If it "takes a village" to raise a child, then it should also take a village [church] to help couples have a healthy marriage. Since we agree that marriage can not totally be prepared for, we should also agree that the Church should be responsible to be there to help with the rough spots. ALWAYS.

So marriage starts with a promise made before God. So if you become engaged, have an engagement party and announce it to everyone, promising before God and everyone you will marry this person that's the Marriage Covenant? OR has it changed because the culture has changed?

Then if a couple lives together, stating that they will NEVER marry, that is fornication, not marriage?

I believe that God is in all Christian marriages, and I believe He is also in the divorce. He certainly doesn't sit there shocked when someone divorces and say, "Gee, never saw that one coming! What's gonna happen now?" He has a plan for each thing that happens in our lives. He knows it's going to happen and orchestrates it to help us grow to better serve Him and glorify Him. God is never surprised.

[Smalcald]

Smalclad,

My friend, I do not disagree with you on preparing for marriage. It is important to know what you are getting into. It should begin in the home with parents and in the church with the Pastor and elder married couples. Kids need good examples, and their parents need to have an open dialog with them about it. The best way to prepare for marriage, is prayer, starting with mom and dad praying for their children and the children's perspective spouses.

What I think we disagree on is the churches involvement in marriage. Just helping couples prepare before marriage is not enough. If it "takes a village" to raise a child, then it should also take a village [church] to help couples have a healthy marriage. Since we agree that marriage can not totally be prepared for, we should also agree that the Church should be responsible to be there to help with the rough spots. ALWAYS.

So marriage starts with a promise made before God. So if you become engaged, have an engagement party and announce it to everyone, promising before God and everyone you will marry this person that's the Marriage Covenant? OR has it changed because the culture has changed?

Then if a couple lives together, stating that they will NEVER marry, that is fornication, not marriage?

I believe that God is in all Christian marriages, and I believe He is also in the divorce. He certainly doesn't sit there shocked when someone divorces and say, "Gee, never saw that one coming! What's gonna happen now?" He has a plan for each thing that happens in our lives. He knows it's going to happen and orchestrates it to help us grow to better serve Him and glorify Him. God is never surprised.

Hi Biblicist,

Yes we are in agreement about the churches role before AND during marriage. You are correct that just focusing on one of those does not cut it.

I am not quite sure what you are saying about marriage though in your last two paragraphs? As far as the engagement party and announcement, no that is not a Christian marriage, simply by the fact that the couple have not actually said a public promise, a promise to make a promise is not the actual promise. If a couple lives together saying they will never marry they are indeed in perpetual fornication and unrepented fornication at that, it is very dangerous. Marriage does include the joining of our total lives, including the legal side of our lives, our assets our liabilities, our inheritance etc.

But what do you mean by God is in the divorce? Do you mean for example in cases where a woman is being abused and God does work through a divorce to save her from death? Something along those lines? I assume you don't mean that God is working in and with sin, saying to someone who meets a new person and claims they now love that person it is okay all things work together for good, go ahead and divorce and take up with this new person? I assume you are not talking about that second instance? Or maybe I am just totally misunderstanding

[Guest Biblicist]

Hi Biblicist,

Yes we are in agreement about the churches role before AND during marriage. You are correct that just focusing on one of those does not cut it.

I am not quite sure what you are saying about marriage though in your last two paragraphs? As far as the engagement party and announcement, no that is not a Christian marriage, simply by the fact that the couple have not actually said a public promise, a promise to make a promise is not the actual promise. If a couple lives together saying they will never marry they are indeed in perpetual fornication and unrepentant fornication at that, it is very dangerous. Marriage does include the joining of our total lives, including the legal side of our lives, our assets our liabilities, our inheritance etc.

But what do you mean by God is in the divorce? Do you mean for example in cases where a woman is being abused and God does work through a divorce to save her from death? Something along those lines? I assume you don't mean that God is working in and with sin, saying to someone who meets a new person and claims they now love that person it is okay all things work together for good, go ahead and divorce and take up with this new person? I assume you are not talking about that second instance? Or maybe I am just totally misunderstanding

Glad that we do agree. . .

So engagement is not a Covenant? It is the marriage that is the covenant? Then it would be fornication to have a physical relationship before the actual wedding day, even if you have already promised in your heart that you would remain with that person for all your life?

I believe that God is there when someone is a victim of divorce. He is not surprised by peoples choices. Although, He forgives people's mistakes, if they repent, and sends them as far as the east is from the west. There are consequences when someone chooses to break their marriage vow, and those consequences are far reaching, especially if there are children involved. However, if they ask for forgiveness they will receive it. And He knows when that will happen. And He is willing to use that, even that mistake, to further His kingdom and bring other's closer to Himself.

If someone made this sort of mistake, all is NOT lost. That is what I am saying. When confession is made and repentance is sought, God forgives. It is a heart issue, we need to be more worried about people's hearts. If we are truly under Grace and not under the Law then their hearts should be more important than their actions. [As a side note, actions are a loud indicator of the heart] Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.

[Smalcald]

Hi Biblicist,

Yes we are in agreement about the churches role before AND during marriage. You are correct that just focusing on one of those does not cut it.

I am not quite sure what you are saying about marriage though in your last two paragraphs? As far as the engagement party and announcement, no that is not a Christian marriage, simply by the fact that the couple have not actually said a public promise, a promise to make a promise is not the actual promise. If a couple lives together saying they will never marry they are indeed in perpetual fornication and unrepentant fornication at that, it is very dangerous. Marriage does include the joining of our total lives, including the legal side of our lives, our assets our liabilities, our inheritance etc.

But what do you mean by God is in the divorce? Do you mean for example in cases where a woman is being abused and God does work through a divorce to save her from death? Something along those lines? I assume you don't mean that God is working in and with sin, saying to someone who meets a new person and claims they now love that person it is okay all things work together for good, go ahead and divorce and take up with this new person? I assume you are not talking about that second instance? Or maybe I am just totally misunderstanding

Glad that we do agree. . .

So engagement is not a Covenant? It is the marriage that is the covenant? Then it would be fornication to have a physical relationship before the actual wedding day, even if you have already promised in your heart that you would remain with that person for all your life?

I believe that God is there when someone is a victim of divorce. He is not surprised by peoples choices. Although, He forgives people's mistakes, if they repent, and sends them as far as the east is from the west. There are consequences when someone chooses to break their marriage vow, and those consequences are far reaching, especially if there are children involved. However, if they ask for forgiveness they will receive it. And He knows when that will happen. And He is willing to use that, even that mistake, to further His kingdom and bring other's closer to Himself.

If someone made this sort of mistake, all is NOT lost. That is what I am saying. When confession is made and repentance is sought, God forgives. It is a heart issue, we need to be more worried about people's hearts. If we are truly under Grace and not under the Law then their hearts should be more important than their actions. [As a side note, actions are a loud indicator of the heart] Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.

It would be fornication to have sex with the person you are engaged to prior to the wedding day, yes. An engagement is not a covenant nor is it a marriage. I mean worse things have happened and of course if a couple slips up and are truly sorry they can repent.

Okay I understand what you mean now, and I do agree with it. All is never lost, glory to God! Certainly my sins are larger than any person who has been divorced. As scripture says some sins go before us and are seen, while other sins are exposed much later.