Guest shiloh357 Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Yeah...what Shilo said! The Bible needs nothing other than what itelf says. I believe it. The fact that it changes lives is enough for me to believe it is inspired by Almighty God. It is power! 1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake. The Koran claims to be inspired, as does the Book of Morman, as do the holy books of various Eastern religions. Even the writings of Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science, claim inspiration. The mere claim of inspiration, no matter how many times, is insufficient to establish a book's bona fides. Except that the Bible does not merely claim to be inspired. The "inspired Book of Mormon has had to revised at least six times that I know of. The Bible has not had to be revised even once. We have not had to add chapters and remove chapters or change what Paul said. The Bible demonstrates in concrete forms its Divine origin by the principle and precepts which are original to the Bible itself. Any similarities you might try to manufacture between the Bible are purely superficial. When you begin to examine the claims of the Bible against other religious writings the differences are made clear. The inspiration of the Bible is not merely claimed by Scripture it is proven by the impeccible, and proven accuracy of the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael333 Posted December 30, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 35 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 .. The Bible has not had to be revised even once. We have not had to add chapters and remove chapters .... The inspiration of the Bible is not merely claimed by Scripture it is proven by the impeccible, and proven accuracy of the text. The Bible has not had to be revised?? We have not had to REMOVE chapters?? -- what about Luther who decided to remove the deutero-canonical books and passages because they conflicted with HIS theological theories? What books constitute the Bible? Catholics can repair to the decisions of the Church, most clearly formalized at Trent and at the fourth-century councils at Hippo and Carthage; these produced lists of books that are to be accepted as inspired on the authority of the infallible Church. Inspired books, taken together, form the Bible. (this does not mean the Catholic church just "came up" with the idea to include these books at Trent..etc. It was held from very early on that these books were inspired. The Church just formalized them at Trent..etc. to make sure they are to be taken as inspired.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 .. The Bible has not had to be revised even once. We have not had to add chapters and remove chapters .... The inspiration of the Bible is not merely claimed by Scripture it is proven by the impeccible, and proven accuracy of the text. The Bible has not had to be revised?? We have not had to REMOVE chapters?? -- what about Luther who decided to remove the deutero-canonical books and passages because they conflicted with HIS theological theories? What books constitute the Bible? Catholics can repair to the decisions of the Church, most clearly formalized at Trent and at the fourth-century councils at Hippo and Carthage; these produced lists of books that are to be accepted as inspired on the authority of the infallible Church. Inspired books, taken together, form the Bible. (this does not mean the Catholic church just "came up" with the idea to include these books at Trent..etc. It was held from very early on that these books were inspired. The Church just formalized them at Trent..etc. to make sure they are to be taken as inspired.) You completely missed the point. The book of mormon has had to be revised because of errors found that they could not smooth over. We have not discovered errors in the Bible. Biblical doctrine has not had to be edited or changed because of any kind of inaccuracies within the text. We did not read the book of Ephesians, for example, and find something Paul said that was not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSLewis Posted December 30, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 828 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/28/1980 Share Posted December 30, 2006 "inspired on the authority of the infallible Church." What church is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeCajunboy Posted December 30, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 113 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,430 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 33 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/28/1952 Share Posted December 30, 2006 The Holy Spirit is God telling me His Word is true and trustworthy. He delivers food to my spirit with the meat from within it. It speaks to me, shouts to me, whispers to me, pushes me, moves me and CHANGES me. That is the proof I need. Not subjective, because I can see how it does the same thing to others...and has done so since before the Catholic Church decided it was the authority on all things spiritual. So, if the Holy Spirit speaks, shouts, whispers, pushes, moves, and changes you, and others that you have seen the same thing, why do so many others say the exact same thing, yet interpret scripture with so many differences? Does the Holy Spirit contradict himself? Are you saying the Holy Spirit speaks to you and the others you mentioned, and not to anyone else? Everyone else are liers The Main question is "How do YOU know for certain that the Bible is inspired?" If I thought it was not, prove to me that it is. I beleive that it would make perfectly good sense that the Holy Spirit works through the Church that Christ established -- which in turn makes the Church a very good source to tell me that the Bible is inspired or not don't you think? Basically, the Holy Spirit speaks, shouts, whispers, pushes, moves and CHANGES me and all other Catholics the same way it does you - as well as being verifiable through the infallible teaching authority of the Church. In no way does the Church do this in absense of the Holy Spirit. Sorry Michael but I have to agree with "Floatingaxe" on this one! I was born a Catholic and I have much to be thankful for it, but I was never inspired by God, quite the same way, until I found God's Word in the Bible. You see, for the 40 years I was growing up in the "Catholic Chrurch," the church never encouraged Catholics to read anything close to the KJV Bible. In fact, it was considered taboo until the past two decades to "Roman Catholics." Actually, when I began to distance myself from the church a bit, I began to truly see what the term being a "Christian" really entailed. So to answer your question, about what inspires us as Christians, I support Axe's statement, although I do know where you're coming from as far as the Catholic Chruch being the fore-runner in the beginning times. But the Catholic is having many complications these past decades, as they allowed their message to be distorted by each and every Leader (Priest) according to his perception of how man was supposed to live. God only rules by one main Law; to have no other God's before HIM! And frankly, I too have trouble with a (Ruler icon) in the Vatican; (a city within itself) that is wasting way too much of the taxpayers money to maintain the icon it has created! At this time in life, this is not a proper way to display the works of mankind and trying to maintain a multi-billion dollar icon that simply will eventually fall by the wayside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSLewis Posted December 30, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 828 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/28/1980 Share Posted December 30, 2006 The problem with the Catholic Church and every other church is that there are peple there. The teachings of the church have been proven again and again to indeed be fallible. Popes have abused there power and position; how many innocent people have been murdered by the infallible church? There is only one who is infallable - and he was killed by men not unlike ourselves, it est fallable. The sins of the church have been many- we continue to fail. It is by God's grace and mercy through his Holy Spirit that we can so much as eat the crumbs under the table of the Most High. peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Horn Posted December 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 178 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 30, 2006 So, if the Holy Spirit speaks, shouts, whispers, pushes, moves, and changes you, and others that you have seen the same thing, why do so many others say the exact same thing, yet interpret scripture with so many differences? Does the Holy Spirit contradict himself? Are you saying the Holy Spirit speaks to you and the others you mentioned, and not to anyone else? Everyone else are liers The Main question is "How do YOU know for certain that the Bible is inspired?" If I thought it was not, prove to me that it is. I beleive that it would make perfectly good sense that the Holy Spirit works through the Church that Christ established -- which in turn makes the Church a very good source to tell me that the Bible is inspired or not don't you think? Basically, the Holy Spirit speaks, shouts, whispers, pushes, moves and CHANGES me and all other Catholics the same way it does you - as well as being verifiable through the infallible teaching authority of the Church. In no way does the Church do this in absense of the Holy Spirit. 2 Tim 3:16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adarian Posted December 30, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 526 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/23/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1961 Share Posted December 30, 2006 There is no doubt that the Lord Christ Himself founded the Catholic Church, but I know that the preparation of the heart in man, and the reply of the tongue is of The Lord. I know that man's goings are of the Lord also, such that every place I put my feet to the ground was ordained of God before He laid the foundations of the earth. I feel the presence of the Spirit of God when others pray. I attend an independent baptist church, not Catholic, because the Spirit of the Lord drew me there. I love this church because I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit when the preacher is in the pulpit, not just in a mild way, but strongly. The presence of the Lord here is unmistakeable. My wife is directly descended from the original protestants who were co-protestant with Luther, and has a compelling family history of the protestant reformation. If the Catholic Church were a tad more holy and more inclined to adhere to the Word of God, Martin Luther would never have had to staple his 95 grievances to the door of the parish church. Indeed, the Catholic Church is of the Lord, or it would not still exist, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, but it must be understood that those who are Protestant who call upon the name of the Lord and believe upon His Holy Name shall be saved along with any true Catholic. This applies also to certain baptists who claim that their ways predate the Catholic Church going back to John the Baptist. Any man who believes that Jesus is the Christ of God and confesses the same to witnesses will be saved, church membership being irrelevant. Baptist and Catholic and Protestant will in the end of all things prove to be nothing more than logos, like brand names on the items of daily living. This inter demominational bashing is irksome. Are we of the Lord? "Ye must be born again." Are we found in Christ, in the faith, or just blowing hot air? Truly, there is some authority in the Catholic Church, but it certainly does not equal the authority of God, nor even approach it. The Bereans, being of more noble character, searched the scriptures daily to "see if these things were so". Scripture is the yardstick by which all things allegedly of God are to be measured, as men are liars and cannot be trusted. The Lord has determined exactly where everyman should live, where each should go to worship, and has grafted each into the vine at His own discretion. No man comes to Christ unless the Father calls him, and no man comes to the Father except by Christ, and no man has Christ save those in whom is found the Spirit of God. We who believe are all Christ's, brand names coming to naught in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benobi1 Posted December 30, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 124 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/11/1976 Share Posted December 30, 2006 The Koran claims to be inspired, as does the Book of Morman, as do the holy books of various Eastern religions. Even the writings of Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science, claim inspiration. The mere claim of inspiration, no matter how many times, is insufficient to establish a book's bona fides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 There is no doubt that the Lord Christ Himself founded the Catholic Church, but I know that the preparation of the heart in man, and the reply of the tongue is of The Lord. I agree with most of your statement. Well put. However, the Lord Jesus Christ is the head of THE church, no denomination. Unless you mean the definition of Catholic that is universal church. Which has lost some of it's hold since Catholic became known primarily as a specific denomination. The early Christians were just that, christian. Not Catholic Christians, or Protestant Christians, Jewish Christians, Methodist Christians. Simply Christian. I take it, Adrian, that you are catholic and your wife is protestant? I was raised in a Protestant (Baptist) and Catholic home. I can imagine the type of conversations you and your wife must have. For me it was NOT pleasant. So the mental picture of your homelife makes me cringe. Both my parents were raised to believe that their denomination was the only correct one. When I became an adult, and even still today, I am almost anti-denominational. Forgive me if I have made assumptions. I intend no offense. In His Mighty Grip, Bib Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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