Apologetics Forum

[Ovedya]

Saints,

Many of you know that I have been away for a while. My job has me running every which way lately, so I have not been able to moderate much. After my short respite, I am looking at this forum, and I am seeing some subjects here that probably would have best been posted in other forums. I am also seeing topics here that could have been posted with a lot more grace and respect.

As a refresher to you all, and as a possible means of education for the newcomers, I'd like to address the subject of apologetics. Here is a definition of "apologetics" I found on the web:

Apologetics: Apologetics: A systematic defense of a belief system. It is derived from the Greek "apologia" which means to create a defense. See 1 Peter 3:15. Most apologetics texts are directed to members of another religion, or to secularists. However they tend to be read in practice by the faith group whose beliefs are defended. See Polemics.

In Christianity:

• Classical Apologetics: uses rational arguments to prove that God exists, and relies on evidence to support biblical claims and miracles.
  
• Presuppositional Apologetics: starts with the assumption that God exists and that the Bible is true. They argue from this that their view of the Trinity, salvation, Heaven, Hell, etc. is valid.
  
• Evidential Apologetics: uses evidences such as miracles, fulfilled prophecies, etc. to prove that God exists and that the biblical account of Christ and his message are valid and trustworthy.
  

Strictly speaking, saints, apologetics is that branch of Christian writing that is devoted to the defense of the doctrines and teachings of the Christian faith. In the above definition there are two main points which we need to understand.

The first point is the defense of the essentials of the Christian faith. Some may argue over what the essentials of the Christian faith truly are. But overall the essentials of the faith are as follows:

1) The conception of the Christ in the virgin womb of Mary.

2) The fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies being in Jesus Christ alone.

3) The absolute divinity and perfect humanity of Jesus Christ.

4) The death of Jesus Christ being for the remission of sin and sins.

5) The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

6) The Bible as the infallible Word of God.

7) The revelation of the Triune God in the Bible.

Now, Paul himself never claimed to give emphasis to anything other than Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2). Therefore, we may say that the core essential to all Christian doctrine is Christ crucified. All these other items are essentials, to be sure, but they hinge upon the death of Christ in one way or another.

The second point in the above definition is the use of rational argumentation. Rational argumentation means that in our defense of the faith we use logic, reason, and I would add, charity. A defense of Christian doctrine is only as good as the charity and reason of the person defending it. So in apologetics we have to very careful how we present the truth to those who argue against it.

In closing, dear saints, please be careful of a few things. First, be careful which subjects you chose to post here. I am not trying to be legal, nor am I trying to be too strict. But if it's a news item, we have a forum for it. If it's a question regarding how to deal with a certain matter or a person, we have places for that too. But here, we would like to address issues related to the items I mentioned. OSAS is a good subject; I have enjoyed reading those threads. Issues related to the errors of some doctirines are okay too, so long as we are careful and mindful of how the discussions are going.

Second, please, please be mindful of others. We have experienced a lot of trouble here with addressing doctrinal issues in a way that is inconsiderate of others. Apologetics is not a kind of way to fight with another. Rather, it is the proper defense and division of the word of God. Let us be mindful of that, and cut out whatever rhetoric we can.

And in all things, dear ones, remember the Lord whom we love and serve. Let us pursue together for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called us upward.

Much Grace,

~G

[Nero's Fiddle]

Apologetics: Apologetics: A systematic defense of a belief system. It is derived from the Greek "apologia" which means to create a defense.

I suppose "apology" is derived from "apologia" as well?

That is the way many apologize... creating a defense.

That is the way some confess to God, nowadays.

Thanks for the reminder, God-man. Welcome back (though it's probably coming a bit late... )!

In Him,

NF

[kroschild]

Just wanted to say how I love that "apologetics" refuses to apologize! LOL

KC

[Guest ThinkingBeliever]

Hmmmm.

I'm not sure I consider (1), (2) or (6) to be essentials of Christianity.

-C.

Edited April 9, 2005 by ThinkingBeliever

[Guest ThinkingBeliever]

Sorry, I don't mean to nitpick.

But what about "Reformed Epistemology" as one of the major apologetic methodologies?

It is by far the most popular right now in academic circles thanks to Plantinga and Wolterstorff.

-C.

p.s. As you have defined them, the "Classical" and "Evidentialist" methods appear to be the same. They pretty much are. The only difference is that Classical apologists always start from arguing for God's existence first and then to other things. Evidentialists start anywhere. They will argue for miracles and then argue that because miracles happen, God must exist. But Classicalists would start with arguing for God and then to miracles. That's the difference.

Edited April 9, 2005 by ThinkingBeliever

[Adarian]

Hi Thinking Believer,

You say you are not sure that 1,2, or 6 are Essentials of Christianity.

1. The virgin conception and birth: The sinful nature is transmitted through the blood line. Women catch it but can't transmit it to the children. It is a medical curiosity that the mother's blood never touches the baby in the womb, as only nutrients are exchanged through the umbilical cord, but no blood flow occurs between mother and child. With no human father [the human male providing the gene that causes the formation of the blood], and a mother who could not contaminate the child with sinful blood, we find that we are given a child without a sinful nature. The virgin conception and birth are foundational to the faith. If Jesus were to be sinless, and he was, it is impossible for him to have a human father, or he would be guilty of sin at conception by nature as the rest of us are, and could not even save himself, never mind the rest of us. He had no sinful nature, and therefore death had no claim on him. He was immortal, but laid down his life willingly, in obedience to the command of the Father.

2.The fulfillment of old testament prophecy in Christ is essential because no man is able to keep the written law [Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. ]

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: [v 13]

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith[v 24]

So that as no man is able to keep the law, the law reveals our need for Christ and points the way to him.

6.The revelation of the triune God: We are Indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, being his temple and instead of following the written law we are obligated and commanded to obey the "law of the Spirit".

Romans chapter 8

1.There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Christ is the creator of all things, these done according to the will of the Father, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We are baptized into the name of the Father, into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:19

These doctrines are, as shown by scripture, inseparable from the true faith. If you don't have the Spirit you don't have the Son, and if you don't have the Son you do not have the Father, and are not saved, there is no life in such a one.

Ovedya's seven points are all essential doctrines.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Adarian

[fenwar]

I assume given the "sticky" nature of this thread that it's not intended for lengthy debate so I'll keep it brief:

I think the differentiation between "classical" and "evidential" is more to do with the time periods than the methods - classical being people like Aquinas or Pascal; evidential being more recent such as Morison, Lewis or McDowell.

(1) The Virgin Birth is essential in as much as it establishes Jesus' humanity and divinity; (i.e. it may not be essential if you can show that Jesus having a human father would not be a problem for this). I see no reason to doubt it myself but I wouldn't say it's a pillar on which Christianity stands or falls.

Point (2) is certainly a tad vague; OT prophecies are often fulfilled in multiple ways. Isaiah's suffering servant is variously Israel, the Messiah, and the church; Deuteronomy's "prophet like Moses" is partially fulfilled by every Israelite leader and prophet from Joshua to Malachi; returning to Isaiah some of the prophecies refer to Cyrus by name as the "Anointed One" (Hebrew - "Messiah") but of course his release of Israel from exile is a foreshadowing of Jesus' true release of all men. I would certainly agree with the fulfilment of the OT prophecies as being "ultimately in Jesus Christ".

Again point (6) is not an essential - I would certainly say it is essential to include scripture as authoritative in matters of belief and practice but this is more about my ecclesiology than my theology. Paul's own teaching about scripture emphasises its usefulness and it is foolishness to ignore that.

[bgoalie35]

Maybe it would be best to start a new thread about how essential/true 1,2, and 6 are, and debate it within the forum.

[Guest mark l malone]

well, remission of sins requires both 4 and 5 going together.

it cant be accomplished without the whole shebang.

without the resurrection, atoning for sins is moot for both an eternal and present significance.

I wonder why works theology is usually based in those thinking calvary only, and not the resurrection?

[justme7]

Saints,

Many of you know that I have been away for a while. My job has me running every which way lately, so I have not been able to moderate much. After my short respite, I am looking at this forum, and I am seeing some subjects here that probably would have best been posted in other forums. I am also seeing topics here that could have been posted with a lot more grace and respect.

As a refresher to you all, and as a possible means of education for the newcomers, I'd like to address the subject of apologetics. Here is a definition of "apologetics" I found on the web:

Apologetics: Apologetics: A systematic defense of a belief system. It is derived from the Greek "apologia" which means to create a defense. See 1 Peter 3:15. Most apologetics texts are directed to members of another religion, or to secularists. However they tend to be read in practice by the faith group whose beliefs are defended. See Polemics.

In Christianity:

• Classical Apologetics: uses rational arguments to prove that God exists, and relies on evidence to support biblical claims and miracles.
  
  
• Presuppositional Apologetics: starts with the assumption that God exists and that the Bible is true. They argue from this that their view of the Trinity, salvation, Heaven, Hell, etc. is valid.
  
  
• Evidential Apologetics: uses evidences such as miracles, fulfilled prophecies, etc. to prove that God exists and that the biblical account of Christ and his message are valid and trustworthy.
  

Strictly speaking, saints, apologetics is that branch of Christian writing that is devoted to the defense of the doctrines and teachings of the Christian faith. In the above definition there are two main points which we need to understand.

The first point is the defense of the essentials of the Christian faith. Some may argue over what the essentials of the Christian faith truly are. But overall the essentials of the faith are as follows:

1) The conception of the Christ in the virgin womb of Mary.

2) The fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies being in Jesus Christ alone.

3) The absolute divinity and perfect humanity of Jesus Christ.

4) The death of Jesus Christ being for the remission of sin and sins.

5) The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

6) The Bible as the infallible Word of God.

7) The revelation of the Triune God in the Bible.

Now, Paul himself never claimed to give emphasis to anything other than Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2). Therefore, we may say that the core essential to all Christian doctrine is Christ crucified. All these other items are essentials, to be sure, but they hinge upon the death of Christ in one way or another.

The second point in the above definition is the use of rational argumentation. Rational argumentation means that in our defense of the faith we use logic, reason, and I would add, charity. A defense of Christian doctrine is only as good as the charity and reason of the person defending it. So in apologetics we have to very careful how we present the truth to those who argue against it.

In closing, dear saints, please be careful of a few things. First, be careful which subjects you chose to post here. I am not trying to be legal, nor am I trying to be too strict. But if it's a news item, we have a forum for it. If it's a question regarding how to deal with a certain matter or a person, we have places for that too. But here, we would like to address issues related to the items I mentioned. OSAS is a good subject; I have enjoyed reading those threads. Issues related to the errors of some doctirines are okay too, so long as we are careful and mindful of how the discussions are going.

Second, please, please be mindful of others. We have experienced a lot of trouble here with addressing doctrinal issues in a way that is inconsiderate of others. Apologetics is not a kind of way to fight with another. Rather, it is the proper defense and division of the word of God. Let us be mindful of that, and cut out whatever rhetoric we can.

And in all things, dear ones, remember the Lord whom we love and serve. Let us pursue together for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called us upward.

Much Grace,

~G

well said!!!