Pick and Choose Laws

[Kabowd]

Kabowd, I do remember that topic as well as others along the same vein, I was enjoying them and your correct, they went down in flames quickly and usually because of the same people coming in and shooting them down. I am kinda hopeing this one will turn out better, so far so good!

Yeah, me too. Plus, it would be hypocritical for me to say we can't seek help from others...as I probably annoy shiloh and AK the most with my constant questions and probing for understanding on things!

[Scarletprayers]

I feel like I should apologize to Shiloh and just let this topic fade away. I didn't mean to put all of the "leg work" on Shiloh and sit back and reap the benefits.

I have the book Kabowd that you brought up and I am reading it, but I'm a kinda have to see it in action/discussion type person before things click in my head. Probably why I ask so many questions.

Any way my apologies Shiloh if I've taken advantage. I will go through the Sermon on the Mount and try to read it in light of what you've told me.

Hey sister, I don't mean to speak for Shiloh but I'm pretty sure he enjoys sharing and teaching with those who are patient and truly seeking to learn. I did not mean to imply that I thought it was wrong to seek his help. I apologize if my post came across that way. I know you aren't trying to be spiritually lazy or take advantage of anyone at all. If anything, I'd encourage people to be more like you; one who deeply desires to understand, asks questions, and listens to those who are wiser than herself. We should all be more teachable and be humble enough to learn from others....please don't change!

When there are others around (like shiloh, AK, Ovedya, EricH and others) who are clearly well-studied on Scripture, I think it's very wise for us to ask their advice, input and to ask them to help us to understand things. It's foolish not to. What I was trying to convey is that if we learn interpretation for ourselves, then we become wiser and less dependent on others to help us interpret things. We'll still need one another, and always will. But what I was trying to do is encourage each of us to learn firsthand through personal study. Know what I mean?

I do and no insult taken, so don't worry at all that I took it wrong. It was probably more that I do worry that I impose on others and don't wont to be considered a pain in the neck. If I though you and I were having a problem I would be sending you a PM right now to see if we could work it out. We are good!

[Guest shiloh357]

Okay Shiloh since you have so graciously told me I can continue, I will. While reading the Sermon on the Mount, what should I be looking for that would make it ring differently from reading it as a sermon to me, as opposed to the Jews. I am what I am, and in the words of yod, a hellenistic type, why would it be different, not wanting you to give away or explain the whole thing, just give me some bullet points so I have and idea what I'm looking for.

Well, for example, when Jesus tells the Jewish people, "you are the light of the world," "You are the salt of the earth," "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your father which is in heaven. Jesus said that a city set on a hill cannot be hid. The "city set on a hill" would be Jerusalem.

I am sure this would not be obvious to most, but in this same sermon, the "Lord's Prayer" is really an abridged version of the "Amidah" (standing prayer) that Torah observant Jewish men pray three times day, even today. The text of that prayer has not changed in over 2,500 years, and was composed by "the men of the great assembly" which were a group of scholars including some of the post exilic prophets in the Old Testament.

Those are just a few examples of what would be specifically revelvant to a Jewish person reading or hearing this sermon.

[Kabowd]

If I though you and I were having a problem I would be sending you a PM right now to see if we could work it out. We are good!

Yay, no PM. Whew, I'm not in trouble for once!

[Scarletprayers]

If I though you and I were having a problem I would be sending you a PM right now to see if we could work it out. We are good!

Yay, no PM. Whew, I'm not in trouble for once!

Well its only a matter of time I'm sure!

[Scarletprayers]

Okay Shiloh since you have so graciously told me I can continue, I will. While reading the Sermon on the Mount, what should I be looking for that would make it ring differently from reading it as a sermon to me, as opposed to the Jews. I am what I am, and in the words of yod, a hellenistic type, why would it be different, not wanting you to give away or explain the whole thing, just give me some bullet points so I have and idea what I'm looking for.

Well, for example, when Jesus tells the Jewish people, "you are the light of the world," "You are the salt of the earth," "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your father which is in heaven. Jesus said that a city set on a hill cannot be hid. The "city set on a hill" would be Jerusalem.

I am sure this would not be obvious to most, but in this same sermon, the "Lord's Prayer" is really an abridged version of the "Amidah" (standing prayer) that Torah observant Jewish men pray three times day, even today. The text of that prayer has not changed in over 2,500 years, and was composed by "the men of the great assembly" which were a group of scholars including some of the post exilic prophets in the Old Testament.

Those are just a few examples of what would be specifically revelvant to a Jewish person reading or hearing this sermon.

Okay, all of the "blessed" sentences have to be taken in a different context also, words having a different meaning than we read into them today..................a spiritual meaning more than physical as well? Salt and light would also have a different meaning 2 things that most of us take for granted in this day and age. I would like to say the part where Jesus talks about fulfilling the law, seems to be seen in a much different manner today by some, than what it would have implied to a Jewish audience. I've seen it used to say we are no longer under the law and it does read that way to me, but I have a feeling that using your stance of looking at it from a Jewish perspective it would have a totally different meaning than that............yes/no??????? Lets stop there, thats enough questions in one post.

[gypc]

One thing we must understand in rightly dividing the Word of Truth is the Bible will never contradict itself.............instead it will always define itself.

For example;

Acts 2:21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These 2 scripture say the same thing and many times when I am witnessing I will use them but there is another scripture that would seem to contradict these.........

Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

..........wait a minute some would say.........! But when we read the whole subject, here's what we get..........

Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

...........Mat 7:21 does not contradict Acts 2:21 or Rom 10:13 instead it defines them. This scripture shows 2 groups of people that built there house in the name of Jesus but one on sand, the other on the Rock............the one heard the Words and was a doer of the Word, the other only heard and decieved themselves.(James 1:22)

Ya see, someone could start a new cult called.....The Joshua people.............and this group could kill unbelievers in the name of God based on the book of Joshua because God told him to kill. Many would follow that nonsense because this person could present a good case for his doctrine based on that book alone however the words of the Lord in Mat 5:44 would contradict this cult when Jesus said "love your enemies".........this person would be found to be a lier because we are supposed to bless those who persecute us and many in the church over the centuries would have died in vain.

So when we see a scripture that could go one way or the other, we need to seek God in his Word and let him lead us into the truth of his Word.

[Guest shiloh357]

Okay, all of the "blessed" sentences have to be taken in a different context also, words having a different meaning than we read into them today..................a spiritual meaning more than physical as well? Salt and light would also have a different meaning 2 things that most of us take for granted in this day and age. I would like to say the part where Jesus talks about fulfilling the law, seems to be seen in a much different manner today by some, than what it would have implied to a Jewish audience. I've seen it used to say we are no longer under the law and it does read that way to me, but I have a feeling that using your stance of looking at it from a Jewish perspective it would have a totally different meaning than that............yes/no??????? Lets stop there, thats enough questions in one post.

I will preface my response by saying that I am not saying that this sermon is not spiritually applicable to us as Christians. I know you realize that, but sometimes, it is best to have those disclaimers out there.

It is not that the meaning is altogether different, but when you read this with the knowledge that the first audience to hear this sermon was Jewish, and that these were unsaved Jews to boot, it goes a long way toward showing Jesus' and the Father's true posture toward the Jewish people. It demonstrates that Jesus was not nearly as antagonistic toward the Jewish people as many have been led to believe he was.

Now as to "fulfilling the law/Torah" Jesus simply means that His purpose is to bring it to fullest expression. Jesus is the fullest expression of the Torah. The ancient Rabbis believed that one sign of the Messiah would be that he would teach Israel the true meaning of the Torah. Far from wanting to abrogate the Torah and relegate it to the dust bin of history, Jesus sets about to restore a proper understanding of it. That is why he starts in with statements like "you have heard it said... but I say..." Jesus was not abrogating the Torah, but rather was confronting misinterpretations that had come by way of corrupt teachers of the Torah who used their corrupt teachings to mask their own unrigteousness. Jesus set nothing in the Torah aside, because the Torah was not the problem. It was the hypocritical way it was applied that Jesus condemned.

Jesus was not anti-Torah; rather He was the epitome of it. He was the living expression of the Torah. The Sermon on the Mount was in essence, a teaching on the Torah itself.

[Scarletprayers]

Shiloh, I got cold chills when I read the last part. Okay so if He fulfilled the Torah, He is the Final chapter, no more to add, He is IT. So as Christians today, by leaving out the Jewishness that is Messiah, the Torah and the way we apporach the Law, we have cut ourselves off from the very foundation of what our faith should be built on. Yes????

How do we correct this, although I love yod, he seems to be saying the above just alittle more stridently than is easy for me to swollow. However you seem to be saying the same thing, evidently with a spoon full of suger to make it go down easier. See this is it, I don't want to be a "Church of Christ" or a "Baptist" or _______________ fill in the blank with your prefereed denom, I wan't to know the truth, what Jesus wants me to do, and think and feel & act.

Okay I've talked myself into a corner, I don't even know what to add next.

gypc thanks for joining in! Any comments on the above?

[gypc]

If I said that we all must still be circumcised because the law says so........most everyone would say your crazy but the reality is we must be circumcised..................but not in the flesh anymore. That was a type and shadow of the Lord fulfilling the law. Now we must be circumcised in the heart through the Blood of Jesus!!