apothanein kerdos Posted May 13, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 13, 2007 AK, I might not know what you mean by "naturalistic evolution". When I responded to you, I took it to mean a belief that science can explain how evolution occurred without resorting to supernatural entities. With that in mind I saw no reason to think that that rules out that God might be needed to explain how the first lifeform came into existence or that God is needed to explain why the universe exists. I separated "naturalistic evolution" from naturalism. I agree with you that if we could explain (literally) everything in the universe (past, present, future) in naturalistic terms then we would rule out the Christian god's existence (but not a deistic god). Again, if the world in its entirety can be explained without the existence of God, then there is no longer any need for Him. It shows that things can come about without His acknowledgment or help. At best, it shows God is ultra-shy and won't leave any evidence of His existence. Regarding morality, your post merely made assertions but I find nothing there I can agree with. Naturalism is compatible with the existence of human desires to live in a functioning society and taking actions to bring that about. Desires are part of nature. Human actions are part of nature. What actions fulfill desires can also be determined in a naturalistic fashion. Where's the problem? Again - these desires have not been proven scientifically. They are assumed. A "civil society" is also not something all people want. Some people want chaos. Why should we not allow this chaos? Regardless, without God there is no morality. There is no justification for it. In fact, you can say, "We're seeking a stable society," but even if I allow this view, I can now allow genocide. If I can kill an undesirable attribute of society, in order to bring about peace for a select group of society, then I'm justified. AK- Just because some people think there is no need for God doesn't mean He doesn't exist. Dawkins is an arrogant fool who gives evolution a bad name. Having Dawkins as the spokesperson for evolution is like having certain tv evangelists being the spokesperson for Christianity. Dawkins is the perfect spokesperson for naturalistic evolution. He brings it to its intellectually appropriate conclusions. Charles Darwin believed in God and was an Anglican. Huh? No, he wasn't. He was an agnostic at best...but most likely an atheist (judging from what he wrote in his autobiography). I am a Darwinian evolutionist and a "born again" christian. You can't be both. One says the physical aspect of our existence is not reliant upon God - it can take care of itself. The other says that all of nature ultimately relies on God and though it might work as a system, that system only works because of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2007 Share Posted May 13, 2007 If You Seek Him With Your Whole Heart, You Will Find Him! Good Hunting The Seventh Day! The Day After Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.Genesis 2:1-3 As Long As Even One Jew Is Alive, The Sabbath Will Be Celebrated! Israel Knows It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.Exodus 31:17 Israel Will Stay Until Man Measures The Heavens Israel Stands Forever! Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. Even Evangelical Atheists trolling Worthy are aware of The Sabbath! They just misplaced their Bible and their faith and The Special Creation and seem to have lost their way. We have someone special to share with them. He Is The Savior He is The Messiah! He Is The Creator! The Creator In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.John 1:1-3 Jesus The Messiah And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Jesus Our Beloved LORD And Savior For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.John 3:16 If You Seek Him With Your Whole Heart, You Will Find Him! Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) Good Hunting The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjwatts947 Posted May 15, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 17 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/30/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/04/1977 Share Posted May 15, 2007 If evolution was true then why don't we see people coming from apes now. Or why don't we see ape with less hair. I don't get it. Or how about other animal turning into other animal. Do animal change their appearance gradually. It just don't make since. I think Genesis make since to me. amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubal-Cain Posted May 15, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1981 Share Posted May 15, 2007 If evolution was true then why don't we see people coming from apes now. Because there are no selection pressures prompting such a change. Or how about other animal turning into other animal. Speciation has occurred in our life times but it is very gradual. You're not going to see a fish turn into a crocodile in one generation. Do animal change their appearance gradually. Species (not individual animals) evolve or geologic time. We can only see very small changes in our lifetime. For example, you are probably aware that many types of bacteria have evolved to become resistant to antibiotics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubal-Cain Posted May 15, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1981 Share Posted May 15, 2007 How many generations (exactly) does it take to morph a gold fish into a croc (or are you simply advancing a croc)? Your question is wrong-headed as it assumes that there is a specific number of generations for such evolution to occur and that evolution must take that path. By the way, my example was to show what would not happen. Has this type of speciation ever been proven? Common descent has been proven. Does the fossil record support such morphing There are fossils linking fish to tetrapods. has science ever observed a mutation that increases the genetic information needed to morph one species into another species? "Genetic information" and "new genetic information" seem to be purposefully vague terms. Without a precise definition it is impossible to answer the question. To change a fish into a crocodile would take a boat-load of new information. How does such information materialize out of nowhere? Mutations cause changes to existing genetic material. It does not come from nowhere. Isn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubal-Cain Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1981 Share Posted May 16, 2007 How much time does it take for fish to morph into reptilians? Your question still seems to make wrong assumptions. Lobe-finned fishes existed about 378 mya and the oldest reptile found is from about 315 mya. Of course it hasn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubal-Cain Posted May 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1981 Share Posted May 16, 2007 So we can agree that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None Posted May 17, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1908 Share Posted May 17, 2007 I second that emoticon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubal-Cain Posted May 18, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1981 Share Posted May 18, 2007 You are certainly entitled to your opinion but your opinion doesn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubal-Cain Posted May 19, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 448 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1981 Share Posted May 19, 2007 Are you saying Darwinism does not posit a godless universe based on blind chance or are you saying you do not agree with godless Darwinism? I am saying I do not agree with godless Darwinism. Were your so-called flying dinosaurs with feathers (1) dinosaurs, (2) birds or (3) dinosaurs morphing into birds? If your answer is either 2 or 3 please provide your Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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